Why there's good reason to believe the "Abomination that Causes Desolations" will happen this spr

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

John was given a vision. OT prophets could receive visions of the future, but John could not? That's kinda silly IMHO. No disrespect.

John's vision was all three, just as OT prophecies often were.
In Revelation 1:19, Jesus tells John, "Write, therefore, what you see – what is, and what is indeed about to be immediately after these."
This revelation included "what is" at the time John received the vision, as well as, obviously, things that were past (the beast that "was," plus the woman in labour in Revelation 12 which obviously reverts to the birth and ascension of Christ).

It's called the "blessed hope" afterall.

The blessed hope: "the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13). Applying this to the Rapture is a case of fitting Scripture to the interpretation -- kinda like fitting the fossil record to the theory of Evolution. You can't go fitting evidence to preconceived ideas.

reply to post by CLPrime


I feel like I'm trying to tell Michal Jordan how to do a cross-over dribble, but oh well:

Yeah, I've been studying the book for well over a decade. The "here after' you mention is "Meta touta".

What chapter and verse does those words appear again after chapter 1??

Based on chapter 1 contextual systematic theology John's writing about a future event when these two words are used together again not a past one, you know this man, you're the Greek expert here.

reply to post by CLPrime

"the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ"

I appreciate the chance to sharpen my iron, and I appreciate the calm tone too. It's nice to have a brotherly discussion with a mature brother in the faith. And I'm still barely grasping Greek so your insight is very much appreciated, getting free education is always a blessing from the Lord, glory to God.

With that said, I was looking for something a little less vague than that. There are two 2nd comings in the Bible. One where every eye on Earth will see Him, another one where only His own will see Him. One where he comes for His bride, another where He comes with His bride.

You have 2 piles of contradictory verses if you only have 1 second coming. The harpazo event isn't a "coming" to Earth. And you know full well "harpazo" implies a snatching away out of danger or harms way. Example, a father who pulls his daughter from running out in the street by her hair and yanking her to safety.

reply to post by SrWingCommander


I agree with you there. I think now that Passover had passed an we didn't really see anything that would resemble the abomination of desolation, we are yet to see the end times event unfold.

Originally posted by FaceLikeTheSun
reply to post by SrWingCommander

 

I agree with you there. I think now that Passover had passed an we didn't really see anything that would resemble the abomination of desolation, we are yet to see the end times event unfold.

Yes, we have not even had the Ezekiel 38 & 39 event yet.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

The "here after' you mention is "Meta touta".

I didn't mention a "here after." I mentioned a "what is." Jesus told John that some of what he would be shown is "what is." That would be present tense - what was at the time John received the vision. Point being, not everything in the vision was future from John's point-of-view.

Based on chapter 1 contextual systematic theology John's writing about a future event when these two words are used together again not a past one, you know this man, you're the Greek expert here.

In Revelation 1:19 (the verse I referenced), John writes:

γράψον οὖν ἃ εἶδες καὶ ἃ εἰσὶν καὶ ἃ μέλλει γίνεσθαι μετὰ ταῦτα

Literally, that reads, "Write, then, what you see - even what is and what is about to happen after these."
Every subject in that phrase is plural, meaning multiple things "are" and multiple things "happen after these (that is, after the things that are)."

The vision includes both things that are and things that are about to happen (soon, quickly).

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

I appreciate the chance to sharpen my iron, and I appreciate the calm tone too. It's nice to have a brotherly discussion with a mature brother in the faith.

Seconded.

With that said, I was looking for something a little less vague than that. There are two 2nd comings in the Bible. One where every eye on Earth will see Him, another one where only His own will see Him. One where he comes for His bride, another where He comes with His bride.

2 Second Comings. I find that contradictory by definition (not that I'm the ultimate judge of these things, but you know...). If Christ comes a second time twice, then does he really come a second time the third time around? If you catch my drift.

If it makes you feel any better, I actually have the same issue with my mentor/friend/brother I mention. His views are very close to my own, and he criticizes Premillennial Dispensationalists for their multiple Second Comings. But then he turns around and has Christ coming four times -- once at his death/resurrection, again at the destruction of Jerusalem, a third time at the fall of Rome, and the fourth time in the future at the Second Coming everyone's expecting. That makes his view no better than yours, in my opinion. Just to show you I'm no respecter of persons. If I think someone's views are non-Scriptural, my relationship with them won't affect. Scripture always comes first.

That being said, Christ comes twice. Only twice. The destruction of Jerusalem was actually a result of the Jews' rejection of Christ at his first coming, so that and his first coming are one and the same. And, in my understanding, the fall of Rome marks the Second Coming.
Though, in accordance with 1 Thessalonians 4, we do have a sort of individual mini-Second Coming whenever each of us dies, as we each get "caught up" to be with the Lord in the air.

This is my understanding:

Christ came the first time (ca. 4 BC - AD 70) - he fulfilled the Law, died for sin, was raised victorious over death, ascended into glory, and made a new covenant to replace the old (physically manifested as the destruction of Jerusalem to be replaced with the spiritual new Jerusalem).
Then, Christ came the second time (ca. AD 313) - the beast/Roman Empire was defeated, bringing redemption to those waiting, and the dead in Christ were resurrected to reign with him for a symbolic period of "1000 years" (representing just a reeeaaallly long time, which, so far, has lasted 1700 years).
Now, as those who are in Christ "die," they no longer sleep in the ground - rather, they are caught up immediately to be with Christ in the air. This will continue until the final destruction of Satan and the final judgement of the remaining dead.

You have 2 piles of contradictory verses if you only have 1 second coming. The harpazo event isn't a "coming" to Earth. And you know full well "harpazo" implies a snatching away out of danger or harms way. Example, a father who pulls his daughter from running out in the street by her hair and yanking her to safety.

Harpazo more than implies it...harpazo means a seizing/catching away by force. Not necessarily out of harm's way, though, just a general "being taken."
The harpazo wasn't a coming to Earth, no, but neither is the rest of the Second Coming. Though the effects of it were certainly made manifest on Earth in the defeat of the Roman Empire, the end of oppression, redemption from persecution, relief from fear, and fulfillment of all that had been promised (that glorious hope you mentioned - also referred to as the mystery of God).

reply to post by CLPrime

I didn't mention a "here after." I mentioned a "what is." Jesus told John that some of what he would be shown is "what is." That would be present tense - what was at the time John received the vision. Point being, not everything in the vision was future from John's point-of-view.

No no, Jesus told John to record what was, what is, and the "here after". The "here after" begins at 4:1 when he is shown the vision of the scrolls being opened from the Mezzanine in heaven. 4:1 begins with "meta touta".

reply to post by CLPrime

soon, quickly

No, the Greek word is the same we get our English word "Tachometer" from. It's implication is when it starts it will happen rapidly. It doesn't imply it will happen right away.

reply to post by CLPrime

2 Second Comings. I find that contradictory by definition (not that I'm the ultimate judge of these things, but you know...). If Christ comes a second time twice, then does he really come a second time the third time around? If you catch my drift.

Friend, only one of those He comes to Earth in the same manner He came the first time. Visibly to all, even the wicked.

That's the "2nd coming of Christ". The harpazo event He doesn't come to the Earth, and only His own will see Him.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Ah, but we have had the Ezekiel 38-39 event. It was fulfilled with the nations coming against Christ to crucify him at his first coming.

Acts 4:25-27 -- "You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David: 'Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth rise up and the rulers band together against the Lord and against his anointed one.' Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed."

This, of course, is quoting Psalm 2:1-2 in saying that the kings and rulers of the earth rise against the anointed one (Christ). We see a very apocalyptic/stylized representation of that in Ezekiel 38-39.

reply to post by CLPrime

2 Second Comings. I find that contradictory by definition (not that I'm the ultimate judge of these things, but you know...). If Christ comes a second time twice, then does he really come a second time the third time around? If you catch my drift.

Have you ever researched the ancient Jewish wedding ceremony and the parallels to our marriage to Him as our Bridegroom?

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Ah, but we have had the Ezekiel 38-39 event. It was fulfilled with the nations coming against Christ to crucify him at his first coming.

Acts 4:25-27 -- "You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David: 'Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth rise up and the rulers band together against the Lord and against his anointed one.' Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed."

This, of course, is quoting Psalm 2:1-2 in saying that the kings and rulers of the earth rise against the anointed one (Christ). We see a very apocalyptic/stylized representation of that in Ezekiel 38-39.

No, look at those nations again. The Magog nations are the southern Russian states. The Great Wall of China was built to keep them out. Go to Joel chapter 3 and research all the nations that will be judged when He returns, none of that has happened yet, and at the battle of Armageddon if you look at the procedures for cleaning up nuclear warfare they are listed in the Bible a LONG time ago:

I'm a military veteran so when I read these things in the Bible it screams a technology statement:

US ARMY manual for NBDP (Nuclear Biological Disaster Preparedness)

1. Israel will be able to use the weapons of that war for energy needs.
2. They will wait months to enter the battlefield.
3. Professionals will be hired to clean the battlefield.
4. If a passerby finds a weapon the pros missed he'll put a flag there and alert the pros.

Even Christ makes mention that if the days were not shortened in that time "no flesh would be saved". That again is a technology statement. The only way all flesh on Earth could be wiped out is GTNW. (Global Thermonuclear War) Even 100 years ago this verse made absolutely no sense. Even as horrible as WW2 was only a fraction of the world's populating perished:

"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Neutron bombs are predicted in the Bible a LONG time ago. They only affect carbon based matter, flesh melting off before a body could hit the ground: (Zechariah 14:12)

If you are sensitive to these things, technological statements are littered throughout the Bible.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Yet the lamb had already been successful in opening the seals.



reply to post by NOTurTypical


Only because you want/need it to mean that. An impartial understanding of the Greek words for "soon" (tachei) and "near" (engus) gives a very different answer. Tachei more literally means "brief" with absolutely no implication of "once the action starts," ever; and engus means "near" either in space or time - and, when in time, means "imminent." So, even if you want to say that the vision is fulfilled quickly whenever it starts to be fulfilled, you still have engus proclaiming that the start is "imminent" -- very, very soon. Plus there's Christ assuring that he was coming soon (also engus). His coming would be just as sudden/imminent.



reply to post by NOTurTypical


That's true...Jesus was to return in the same way as he went up into heaven (Acts 1:11 -- it never says he would return in the same way as he came the first time, only in the same way as he left).
The implication of the Greek of Acts 1:11 would read more clearly as follows:

"This same Jesus, who is taken up from you into heaven -- in the same way as you have seen him go into heaven, so he will come."

How did Jesus go into heaven?
He went invisibly, in a cloud. And that's the manner in which he would come - invisibly, in a cloud (that is, hidden from sight).

reply to post by CLPrime

This, of course, is quoting Psalm 2:1-2 in saying that the kings and rulers of the earth rise against the anointed one (Christ). We see a very apocalyptic/stylized representation of that in Ezekiel 38-39.

The nations again are gathered at the end of the millennium to war against Him. It's a pretty short war though. lol

reply to post by CLPrime

Yet the lamb had already been successful in opening the seals.

Read that again, the Lamb was the only one "worthy to open" the seals. The 24 elders are singing the "song of the redeemed". They are on thrones, and offering up prayers (kings and priests). Do you know about "first mentions" in Biblical Hermeneutics? And where 24 comes from? 24 is the biblical number for the ekklesia. And in revelation 1 Jesus says the candlesticks are "the churches", In 4:1 those candlesticks are present in heaven.

Not to mention thee are 4 levels of application for the churches in 2 and 3.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


A military vet will see bombs and tanks. An African native will see blow darts and huts. A sports star will see footballs and cleats. A plumber will see wrenches and toilets. Kirk will see starships and half-naked green women. Get 1274 people in a room and you'll have at least 1274 different interpretations based on personal biases and experiences. That's certainly not the way to interpret Scripture.

Context and consistency. They're crucial.

reply to post by CLPrime

How did Jesus go into heaven?
He went invisibly, in a cloud. And that's the manner in which he would come - invisibly, in a cloud (that is, hidden from sight).

No, they seen Him ascend, that's why they were looking up in the sky. It certainly want an invisible ascension. The angel even says "you have seen". They saw Him ascend.

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

A military vet will see bombs and tanks. An African native will see blow darts and huts. A sports star will see footballs and cleats. A plumber will see wrenches and toilets. Kirk will see starships and half-naked green women. Get 1274 people in a room and you'll have at least 1274 different interpretations based on personal biases and experiences. That's certainly not the way to interpret Scripture.

Context and consistency. They're crucial.

Oh come on. If you look at the methods I linked for NBDP it matches the Biblical account given in Ezekiel 38 & 39. Who cares what the other folks see? I could argue they are ignorant to the methods of NBDP.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Revelation 5:5 -- "And one of the elders says to me, 'Don’t cry. Behold, the lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has been victorious to open the scroll and its seven seals.'"

Has been victorious.
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