The Miracles of the Quran ( Embryology 14 centuries ago )

Monsatan I'm aware of what you're typing and I'm reading them, I'm just trying to reply to Andy also.

@andy
You said "Why else would your Allah allow free will and then teach us to kill one another for what simply amounts to sport(War)." Which I assume that you agree that humans need rules, and cannot be the free they want to be, which means killing each other without punishment and doing bad without anyone saying it is bad. And that's exactly the reason why Allah gave us the Scriptures, why would he set us free and not gives us guidelines?
You say that you belief that we will one day return to God, does that mean you belief that there is a God? Must there not be a messenger?

reply to post by ImaMuslim


I know that, thats not the problem, I was talking about reporting the verses and your interpretation. I thought you would want to hear the imams' interpretations if you really are Muslim. I'm also staying on topic (embryology)


Thought you hadn't heard of Galen's theories????
www.answering-islam.org...

There are other problems with Moore's interpretation too. Not least is the claim of Muhammed that the dates of the alaqa and mudghah were 40-80 days and 80-120 days of gestation respectively, rather than 24-25 days and 26-27 days. It also begs the question as to why, if the Qur'an really is giving us a highly precise scientific account of human development, it only mentions four stages, nutfah, alaqa, mudghah, plus the clothing of bones with flesh. Between fertilization and day 28 for example Moore lists no fewer than 13 stages in his textbook. Why does the Qur'an say nothing about any of these other stages? The reality is that the more ambiguous the meaning of the Arabic terms, and the more meanings that can be attached to certain words, the less convincingly can they be said to be highly precise scientific terms.

However, the most convincing explanation, and the most worrying for those who maintain that the Qur'an is God's eternal Word, untampered with and free from any human interference, is that the Qur'an is merely repeating the teaching of the enormously influential Greek physician Galen. If this is the case, not only is the Qur'an wrong, but it also plagiarises ancient Greek literature!

. (that's the source of your op btw, as I'm sure you are aware)

This is exactly what I'm telling you Monsatan. That we can never agree on the perfect interpretation of the verses. We even have non-muslims trying to correct it. For example;

A point often missed, though alluded to by Dr. Campbell, is the phrase “min bain” which literally means “from between”. If this interpretation is accepted, which seems to be the case from a reading of the commonly available translations, then one must also note that semen emanates from the penis, and not from between the penis and the vagina. To be strictly correct, semen emanates from the penis into the vagina. This point seems to rule out tara’ib as being anything to do with the female sexual partner.

If we can eliminate the errors in some of the interpretations of the verses we are another step further to solving the puzzel, that's what the Quran wants you to do, think so you may learn. That's why I'm saying that a verse is not easy to interpret but you must start form somewhere so that you may lead to the right one.

But there is nothing to say the least that the verses are in error, or that it's false what it says.

Yea sorry for being off topic with Andy but I really love discussions.
I respect the interpretations of all the Imams, but I do not necessarily take it as absolute truth. They have build it so we can finish it, they had knowledge of Embryology but we have more. If you're getting my point in saying that we can never understand the absolute truth then you're good. What if tomorrow we discover something that explains the Embryology even better than what we have today, that means we have to interpret it another way. But the least we cannot forgot old interpretations.

There is an saying of the old Imams that says, If they were to be wrong and contradict the Quran in their interpretations we were to take their text and through it away, because it would be an insane sin to say what Allah has said otherwise. Even they did not take it as absolute truth.

reply to post by ImaMuslim


By the way, if you don't add your source, and (ex) tags you are technically plagiarizing this thread, and that is against t/c's. Others will also get to see the parts about Galen, Hypocrates and Aristotle like we did

Here's another bit from your source

Aristotle believed that humans originated from the action of male semen upon female menstrual blood [18] which leaves us with something of a dilemma. If we translate alaqa as "clot" it means that the Qur'an is completely wrong about human development, since there is absolutely no stage during which the embryo consists of a clot. The only situation in which an embryo might appear like a clot is during a miscarriage, in which case the clotted blood which is seen to emerge (much of which comes from the mother incidentally) is solidified and by definition no longer alive. So if ever an embryo appeared to look like a clot it would never develop any further into a human; it would be a dead mass of bloody miscarrying flesh. Since Muhammed had several wives it is entirely likely that he would be very familiar with miscarriages. Alternatively it could be hinting at Aristotle's incorrect belief that the embryo originated from the combination of male sperm and female menstrual blood.

See that's my point, they keep changing the meanings of words to seem right, but if you leave them as they are and compare them to the Greek knowledge of the time, they seem to have influenced the Quran.

If its true in this one part, what of the others? That's my point. The Quran is just as corrupt as the other texts, they just have a different method

It didn't come from god, it came from some of the most "ahead of their time" intellects. It's a collection of HUMAN knowledge at the time, nothing more

And all the scientists you quoted earlier were given the new "revised" translations, not what was believed for 1000+ years

This is my last post. It's been a fun debate, but I got to the point I was trying to make the whole time, starting with hypocrates yet you refuse to hear it

Please see that Islam sees the changing of the bible as proof only the Quran is right when they were just doing the same thing by changing the meaning of words. That book is as fiddled with as the king James bible, neither of which I believe

The rest of it is riddled with discrepancies like this, and can be attributed to other scholars' work of the time period

I only ask that you look

Would you then care to explain how he performed miracles?

No, I wouldn't. Your OP only talks about Koranic contents and their production. Don't change the subject.

Netiquette aside, many Muslims preach that Mohammed performed no miracles, except to recite the Koran itself. It is therefore entirely regular for me to confine my remarks to the Koran.

If he wasn't able to read or write, ...

As I noted in my post, you haven't established that he wasn't able to read or write. In any case, what he produced wasn't "600+ pages" but rather (about) 2000 minutes of oral recitation - not one oral recitation, but 114 over a period of more than two decades.

Do I believe that a person, whether literate or illiterate, could average a fifteen-minute free-verse poem every other month over a twenty-three year career?

I sure do.

The Arabs were so wild and un-educated during the time before Islam that they buried their newly born daughters alive.

Unless you are telling me that Mohammed buried his newborn daughters, then what relevance does this slander on Arabs have for our discussion?

Similarly, unless you'd like to point me to a literary work authored or co-authored by Jinn, it is irrelevant what Mohammed says about the literary capability of a Jinn-human alliance.

Just as Mohammed isn't the first author to conflate his wordsmithing with the craftsmanship of God, he also isn't the first to think his stuff is the best there ever was and ever will be. Selling words is a tough racket. A big ego can come in handy.

Fact of the matter is, anyone can make a book say whatever they want. Alot of words in the Quran have many different meanings. So if someone finds an error, one just has to say it means something else.

In order for one to truly be able to know if this is the word of God, one has to be an expert in Classical Arabic. That takes years...Most people dont have the time or resources to learn a language.

At face value Quran does not look any different than the Vedas or the Bible. Anyone who doesn't know the language will just see a book with lines and dots. So they cant conclude its from God. Muslims are told what this aya means or what this dot on top of this means. So imams and sheiks are the ones telling you what this book means.

Something Allah should have done is to send the final prophet anywhere in the world except the Middle east or around there.. If he could have just have sent him to Brazil or China.. that in itself would probably be a miracle because we would be like how did this man know about Jesus or his virgin birth or the names of the prophets mentioned in the Bible.etc.

Regarding English translations of the Quran, the translators are Muslims so of course their going to twist the words to make them look like science facts..

In other parts of the world Muslims dont have to try too hard to convince people that this book is the word of God because people are less educated and less expose to science, philosophy, etc. America is one of the few places that they actually have to get scientists to say this book contains science or have to come up with all kinds of miracles and whatnot.

reply to post by ImaMuslim


"@andy
You said "Why else would your Allah allow free will and then teach us to kill one another for what simply amounts to sport(War)." Which I assume that you agree that humans need rules, and cannot be the free they want to be, which means killing each other without punishment and doing bad without anyone saying it is bad. And that's exactly the reason why Allah gave us the Scriptures, why would he set us free and not gives us guidelines?
You say that you belief that we will one day return to God, does that mean you belief that there is a God? Must there not be a messenger? "

Humans cannot be told you are free on one hand and then be told on the other by a deity, do this or do that or ile spank you. Freedom requires that we make our own rules. I do beleive there is a God, allthough i dont subscribe to the christian, Muslim or Jewish paradigms. If there were to be a messenger i dont think he would be Human because were fallible. I have allready stated the 3 rules i follow in this verse, i dont need any others. I certainly dont need Muhammad (peace be upon him) or Jebus to save my sole, i am capable of doing that myself and so are you!

What do think regarding Jinn, do you agree that the exist? And that they have been influencing religion and human existance for millenia?

how many people were involved in writing the Koran? I have read bits of it translated online but the language is (I don't know what word to use here) It sounds like someone repenned something but not knowing exactly what they were transcribing.

I believe Language is so much here on earth... language is important and still somehow a mystery, I think it is related somehow to a development and directly effects development.

no update and refinement of a language means no flight to the moon.

that is one confusing book...

reply to post by andy06shake


SPOT ON, very well said. The problem with organized religion today is it is organized. I do not need someone to tell how to pray, what to pray for or who to. I received the gift of a brain from my maker and can read his word clearly.

Cheers,

Originally posted by DOLCOTT
reply to post by andy06shake

 

SPOT ON, very well said. The problem with organized religion today is it is organized. I do not need someone to tell how to pray, what to pray for or who to. I received the gift of a brain from my maker and can read his word clearly.

Cheers,

same here... I received mine from my country and the public school systems teach us here inadvertently because it is directly tied to the founding of this nation.

talk about a power-trip! I could easily be out in the streets yelling God & Country too but we we're not educated via religion or Christianity nor Islam, we are educated via history of where we've been.

one gets to choose on their own after the pieces of history start assembling...

I was bought up with Protestant beliefs, had them instilled into me through family and school system. You just have to break free, think for yourself, i know it sounds funky but knowing yourself is really important. Prayer is between you and which ever deity you wish, as soon as we involve another individual communion becomes retarded and twisted because there is no conection any longer, the priest is speaking on your behalf. Just my opinion people.

Here's the premise of the Kuran - everything in the Torah and the Bible is true, and is Gods work, yet was somehow "corrupted" - and no muslim ever provides evidence of the so called corruption.

Oh and lets not forget - you should stone women for 5,000 different reasons, and Jesus was just a prophet / good teacher, not God.

Yeah, real good "holy text".

Originally posted by Iason321
Here's the premise of the Kuran - everything in the Torah and the Bible is true, and is Gods work, yet was somehow "corrupted" - and no muslim ever provides evidence of the so called corruption.

Oh and lets not forget - you should stone women for 5,000 different reasons, and Jesus was just a prophet / good teacher, not God.

Yeah, real good "holy text".

The irony. It's overwhelming.

A muslim apologist confronted PZ Meyes on the issue of embryology and the Koran, and PZ Meyers showed them that they were wrong.

www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by andy06shake
I was bought up with Protestant beliefs, had them instilled into me through family and school system. You just have to break free, think for yourself, i know it sounds funky but knowing yourself is really important. Prayer is between you and which ever deity you wish, as soon as we involve another individual communion becomes retarded and twisted because there is no conection any longer, the priest is speaking on your behalf. Just my opinion people.

edit on 29-3-2012 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)

what priest? most of us do not have them... it is in the veins and it goes way before the founding of this country.

it is so weird that the common working man in the blue collar field whose never been educated in religion knows more about spirituality than a muslim Imam... coincidence? I think not, we we're set free here for the fist time again after the events of Jesus.

the Nation also recognizes this because of our accomplishments and inventions...

the next time they come to try to kill and erase Jesus the crowd is going to bum-rush the whole joint I can almost guarantee that... the Faithful will not let it happen again! but the war is on!

reply to post by SisyphusRide


By priest i mean whatever there/your/my version is, we are free but Jebus or Muhammad(peace be upon him) had crap all to do with it, Human consciousness is nearly ready for the next level thats all.

Originally posted by andy06shake
reply to post by SisyphusRide

 

By priest i mean whatever there/your/my version is, we are free but Jebus or Muhammad(peace be upon him) had crap all to do with it, Human consciousness is nearly ready for the next level thats all.

edit on 29-3-2012 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)

but of one individual soul I think not...

reply to post by SisyphusRide


"but of one individual soul I think not..."

sorry, dont understand, please elaborate?