The Miracles of the Quran ( Embryology 14 centuries ago )

reply to post by Monsatan


I though the embryo stuff in the koran was known to have come from Galen


www.answering-islam.org...:

However, the most convincing explanation, and the most worrying for those who maintain that the Qur'an is God's eternal Word, untampered with and free from any human interference, is that the Qur'an is merely repeating the teaching of the enormously influential Greek physician Galen. If this is the case, not only is the Qur'an wrong, but it also plagiarises ancient Greek literature!

The astronomy bits in the koran (which I know more about) are definitely from Ptolemy

I guess mo just never expected that one day people would to be able to google his drivel

For example the Quran talks about how a woman gets pregnant in detail, is it possible that a man living in the arabic peninsula that could neither write or read knew this?

The arabs and persians had a strong scientific culture once upon a time.... They were very advanced in mathmatics, astonomy and medicine for example. Until superstition got the better of them

Originally posted by andy06shake
Organised religion is nothing more than a control construct! Organised religion conditions morons to beleve the samething often contrary to the Holy book that spawned the ideology in the first place!

I have to disagree with you, religion is a higher level of education. It's higher than the level of education you get in school, high school and university. Why would it be bad to have people controlled and organised? Is it known everywhere that when you can control and organize people, it keeps them from doing bad? Are you really saying that people that are uncontrollable are worse than those who are controlled? If so then let's go kill everyone who's on the streets, If my book doesn't tell me it's bad to kill, I would be out there scoping everyone on the streets. If religion wasn't here, there wouldn't be any rules, laws and morals codes. Everyone would make their own laws and rules. Isn't that what you're against? The capitalists and the governments are making their own laws, they say they're above the laws of God. And see how that works, they're robbing you of every penny you have. Shame on you for disbelieving in God and accepting the laws of your Government even thought all they do is bad against you.
I mean I can't even explain the way you're thinking about religion, when all wars and conflicts are politically motivated. The greatest of wars were fought because of humans making their own set of rules, Hitler for example, was he following a religious code? No he was all for humanism, he liked making his own rules, his own laws and control a people that follow his agenda. To be on God's side is not the same as being on side of a human's agenda. You can't say that God's side is the same thing as being on the side that is completely made of humans.

Humanism is just wrong, and trying to tell you in what way it's wrong would take the rest of my life. I'm sure that those who do belief in it, think that humanism gives peace to everyone because you have equal rights. But you're going to far, even equality has it's set of rules.

could neither write or read knew this?

Illiteracy is not a cognitive impairment. Since the Koran was originally composed for oral presentation, it is irrelevant whether the author could write. As to reading, Arabic is a phonetic alphabet. In cultures with phonetic alphabets, it is entirely possible for people who "cannot read" to sound out words sufficiently to understand the gist.

It is a matter of record that Mohammed, a merchant, employed scribes. (This is not evidence of illiteracy; literate business people today hire secretaires). His scribes would also serve him as readers, as is typical of their trade.

Finally, it is very difficult to establish that he was, in fact, unable to read. The received body of Islamic literature asserts that, but the reliability of that body is in dispute. It is circular to use something it asserts as a step in trying to show that what it asserts is truthful.

a man living in the arabic peninsula

Being an Arab is also not a cognitive impairment. The Arabs were a seafaring people, and Mohammed was a trader. There is no reason to suppose that he didn't fully participate in the common knowledge of his time, just as other Arabs did.

the Quran talks about how a woman gets pregnant

Which is the same way any other female mammal does. A huge body of observation of human experience, complemented by corroboration from millennia of animal husbandry would ensure enough familiarity with the facts of both fertilization and embryology to get them roughly correct by the Seventh Century. (Embryology may be learned from the misadventures of pregnancy, of whatever mammal).

And roughly correct is all you would expect from a poem. There is nothing "scientific" about saying that the first people issued from some loosely described wetness. There is no miracle that a poet adopted this image. Wetness, like breath and containment of blood, is a principal vital sign, especially for a desert dweller.

In any case, we seem to be in agreement that what the Koran says is not literally correct. Like many poetic statements ("We are star dust"), there might be some sense in which the statement is true (larger atoms were formed in stars) even though literally it is false (we are mostly water, which has a lot of hydrogen in it, the smallest atom, and not something formed in stars).

Note especially that if I found in some Seventh Century document the statement "We are star dust," that I would have no basis from that to assert that the author knew about nuclear fusion. The only literal connection between the author's statement and nuclear fusion is that the modern reader knows about nuclear fusion.

Oh wait... stars are made of hydrogen. The statement means we are made of the same stuff as stars are made of. Woohoo! A miracle!

No. Give me a vague statement to interpret, and I will find some way to interpret it.

Moreover, if the same poem also asserted in another line "We are golden," as the modern lyrical poem Woodstock does, then what am I to make of that?

Well, it's like the Kevin Bacon game. How many "hops" is any grammatical sentence "away from" a true statement? I can do "We are golden" in two hops:

We are golden. The ocean contains some dissolved gold. Our blood is like sea water.

Woohoo! Another miracle!

I still expect an answer Iamamuslim. How can a book written by Allah have erroneous statements attributed to the teachings of hypocrates

(not even mentioning Ptolemy and galen as the above poster added) I'm just analyzing what you yourself wrote

reply to post by Atzil321

"The arabs and persians had a strong scientific culture once upon a time.... They were very advanced in mathmatics, astonomy and medicine for example. Until superstition got the better of them."

Very true, however Muslim science and math came from Greek influence, just like we learned(relearned) it from the Muslims during the crusades.

What do you mean the study of Embryology has come from Galen? the Quran does not contain anything but the words of Allah. I can't agree with you that when the Quran speaks of Embryology it's taking information gained from Galen. For example did Galen even know what is said in the Quran? Please do tell me what part it is that you think Galen provided for the Quran. To study the early stages of the embryo is only possible through microscope, Galen didn't have that, did he?

@Monsantan
Can you at least provide me with an example? I don't know what teachings your speaking of.

@Eight_bits
Would you then care to explain how he performed miracles? Perhaps explain the splitting of the moon, or don't you believe in it because you weren't there to see it? You're referring to people that knew poetry in the early ages even though they couldn't read or write. Take this verse for example;

And We have not taught him (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) poetry, nor is it suitable for him. This is only a Reminder and a plain Qur'an. ( سورة يس , Ya Seen, Chapter #36, Verse #69)

This is what they called him after he performed miracles with Allah's will in order to guide them to the straight path;

He (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) said: "My Lord! Judge You in truth! Our Lord is the Most Gracious, Whose Help is to be sought against that which you attribute (unto Allah that He has offspring, and unto Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم that he is a sorcerer, and unto the Qur'an that it is poetry)!" ( سورة الأنبياء , Al-Anbiya, Chapter #21, Verse #112)

If he wasn't able to read or write, he couldn't of been able to provide information for a book that has 600+ pages, includes perfect Arabic grammature that the Arabic language is based upon. How did he know some of the information that wasn't even provided to us until the 20th century? Is it even possible for a human to make such a book and spread such a religion without it having contradictions? He did this in 23 years, most of the time no one even believed in him. No one could of helped him write it because they didn't believe him. For Muhammad (peace be upon him) to have known some of the examples you say are contained in early history, he must have had a time machine because he wasn't able to read. And I highly doubt anyone in the Arabic Penonsula during that time spoke of the Greek literature. The Arabs were so wild and un-educated during the time before Islam that they buried their newly born daughters alive. After Islam all that was abolished from the region.

Allah says that if Mankind and Jinn together gathered and tried to make a verse like that of the Quran they wouldn't be able, and that would explain why no one has edited the Quran for 1400 years. They can't simply produce it, and Allah promised to protect it from corruption.

And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'an) to Our slave (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم), then produce a Surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful. ( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #23)

Say: "If the mankind and the jinn were together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another." ( سورة الإسراء , Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #88)

reply to post by ImaMuslim


ImaMuslim, you sound like a good kind of person. Your nearly there mate, but i suspect your religious beliefs in a book written by a Man(Mohammed, peace be upon him)are holding you back. Sure mate pray, but you dont need a book corrupted by us Humans to base your ideas and principles upon. The big dude can hear you thoughts without the aid of a Mosque or mat, he/she/it is omnipotent after all.

reply to post by ImaMuslim


Are you being purposefully obtuse?

"There is a rather less complicated explanation for this verse however. The Greek physician Hippocrates and his followers taught in the fifth century BC that semen comes from all the fluid in the body, diffusing from the brain into the spinal marrow, before passing through the kidneys and via the testicles into the penis [7]. Clearly according to this view sperm originates from the region of the kidneys, and although there is obviously no substance to this teaching today, it was well-known in Muhammed's day, and shows how the Qur'an could contain such an erroneous statement. "

You wrote that
Let me repeat that..YOU wrote THAT

How can something written by god have "such an erroneous statement"? Your answer was that "it was well known in Muhammad's day,"

please explain this contradiction

reply to post by ImaMuslim

Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones then (not and) clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create! Qur'an 23:14

Let's talk about reproduction here, 1. Sperm needs an egg to form, 2 bones do not form first... Error or am I not understanding the verse ?


Or


The number of astronomical errors is impressive as well, things like 7 planets, moon is farther than the stars...

I honestly don't mean to sound hostile and I hope it's not coming across that way, the burden of proof for this thread though is on you not everyone else as you are the one claim the Quran to be 100% true.

reply to post by andy06shake


I would star your post twenty times if I could, well said

I'm deeply sorry but your right, I didn't know that the article I wrote was anti-Islamic. It wasn't meant to post such a misguiding article, I thought it was a source of good information on Islam Embryology in the Quran, but it was only there to mock the Quran. I'm going to remove it and find a better one, that explains it in a muslims respect of view.

take a look at these scientists, they say that it's no doubt that Muhammad (peace be upon him) must have been provided the information by a divine being.
www.islamic-awareness.org...

After a study which lasted ten years, Dr. Maurice Bucaille addressed the French Academy of Medicine in 1976 concerning the existence in the Qur'an of certain statements concerning physiology and reproduction. His reason for doing that was that :

"...our knowledge of these disciplines is such, that it is impossible to explain how a text
produced at the time of the Qur'an could have contained ideas that have only been discovered in modern times."

"The above observation makes the hypothesis advanced by those who see Muhammad as the author of the Qur'an untenable. How could a man, from being illiterate, become the most important author, in terms of literary merits, in the whole of Arabic literature?

How could he then pronounce truths of a scientific nature that no other human-being could possibly have developed at that time, and all this without once making the slightest error in his pronouncement on the subject?

reply to post by ImaMuslim


So you would still have to explain why Muhammed says the nuftah comes from between the backbone and ribs..if Muhammed had written that it came from the testicles I would have to accept he was privy to knowledge that others weren't. This isn't the case.

Why would you ignore the fact that you may know where that verse originated? Why? You are kidding yourself and blinding yourself by censoring yourself. It makes sense that hypocratic teachings were responsible for the mistake. The fact that you ignore it because it might point out the FACT that it was written by (an intelligent) man is the epitome of ignorance. This is why you believe there are no errors in the Quran'? Because pointing out an error (and where that error came from) makes you wrong and anti Muslim?

You are being held back by yourself
Willingly it seems, and this saddens me greatly

reply to post by ImaMuslim


Even if Muhammad (peace be upon him) got the the words in the Koran verbatim from a divine being(I suspect a Jinn). That was what 1800 years or so in the past. Your Imam's(Humans) have changed and corrupted the words in said book to suit there own purposes, same with the Bible and Torah or any other Holy books that us dodgy power mad monkeys get our hands on.

We cant even leave the dictionary alone for any length of time without having a wee tamper here and there. Power corrupts peoples minds mate, and people corrupt information(Books) to suite there own desires be it Love,hate, fear or just plain control!!!!

@benrl
I think you're understanding it wrong, I doubt the scientists that claim it to be true are wrong.

It says that;

Then WE made the sperm Into a clot of congealed blood

Then of that clot WE made A (foetus) lump; then WE Made out of that lump Bones and clothed the bones With flesh

What do you mean that bones do not form first? When the sperm was then converted into a congealed blood it was made into a lump (the form of a human being started to develop) and then the bones are made to firm the structure growth of the being, or am I wrong? It's not explaining what comes first inside the body of the being, instead what's coming first inside the womb of the birth-giver.

Here's an answer from someone; "According to Dr. Keith Moore, the modern classification of embryonic development stages which is adopted throughout the world, is not easily comprehensible, since it identifies stages on a numerical basis i.e. stage 1, stage 2, etc. The divisions revealed in the QUR'AN are based on distinct and easily identifiable forms or shapes, which the embryo passes through. These are based on different phases of prenatal development and provide elegant scientific descriptions that are comprehensible and practical. Similar embryological stages of human development have been described in the following verse:"

So it's not easy comprehensible in the numerical stage that the embryonic stages are adopted, maybe the Quran can tell us?

@monsatan
"the word in the verse is ma'a. not nutfah.

It does not mean sperm comes out from between backbone and ribs. it means water, or more accurately, a mixture of ma'a - water and amino acids (modern science calls it amino acids, Allah called it ma'a).

modern medicine tells us that when sex is taking place, the semen is forming and aside from sperms coming up from the testicles, the blood from the stomach and water from the body comes to form the white semen. this is o'level biology.

its not sperm, its water that comes forth from between backbone and ribs."

reply to post by ImaMuslim


soft tissue is the first thing to form in he womb and the bones develop inside it, the quran seems to say the bones form in the womb first followed by soft tissue... Which would be in error.

May I make a suggestion? It's something I did with my faith, I made it a point to study and read things that challenges my views.

If my beliefs are true I have nothing to fear by studying books by atheist and by those who directly question the bible.

Perhaps you should do the same, if anything it could only serve to aid you in these types of discussions so you can more accurately represent the Islamic faith with a critical eye?

reply to post by andy06shake


Right. They don't even have to change the text (ie) "this verse means (insert the imam's translation here)"
I've seen this done many times with much more novel information in the 21st century

Even the Quran is susceptible to corruption if taught by word of mouth, like in the mosques. They do that crap with every religion