Vatican exposures: Catholic ATS members? What say you?

reply to post by EricD


You win, man. It's not really that important. Killing is killing, and the Catholic church isn't guilt free in the mass murder department, but if it help you sleep at night to think so, go for it. Calm down, have a beer, chill out. You've got your blood pressure to consider, y'know?

When folks get that defensive and combative, I've got to question the reason behind that, but ultimately it's YOUR blood pressure that's gonna shoot out of your eyes, not mine.

Pat yourself on the back for your victory and take a deep breath.

have a nice day!

Originally posted by wildtimes

And that causes you to embark on a rampage that seeks to "disprove" the entire premise of the complaint?
As I said, what difference does it make how many wrongs were committed, by religious zealotry or war or whatever you want to "count"?

edit on 22-3-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

No, I don't want to count. You were the person that made the comparison. You clearly want to count.

Once again, you are framing the argument in a way that is divorced from reality. I have no wish to 'disprove the entire premise of the complaint'. If I did, I would have certainly gone to greater lengths than commenting on that one statement.

You made a statement that been made by others on this forum that is demonstrably incorrect. I pointed it out.

Eric

reply to post by EricD

You made a statement that been made by others on this forum that is demonstrably incorrect. I pointed it out.

And, with that gesture, rather derailed the whole thing. I don't know what word you left out in the first sentence above. "that been made by others..."

sigh.
never mind, Eric. You don't understand. But
BRAVO
okay. Whatever.

I give up.

reply to post by wildtimes


Thanks for pointing that out. The word was 'had'.

Eric

reply to post by nenothtu


Is there anything in what I have written that indicates that I believe that the Catholic Church is guilt free?

Eric

reply to post by EricD

Is there anything in what I have written that indicates that I believe that the Catholic Church is guilt free?

Not in the words, no.

In the wording, however, you failed to show any regard for the point of the thread and appeared to be
(as in "came across as")
wanting to debate numbers rather than address the issue. But that's fine.

No worries.
Peace.

Originally posted by nenothtu
reply to post by EricD

 

You win, man. It's not really that important. Killing is killing, and the Catholic church isn't guilt free in the mass murder department, but if it help you sleep at night to think so, go for it. Calm down, have a beer, chill out. You've got your blood pressure to consider, y'know?

When folks get that defensive and combative, I've got to question the reason behind that, but ultimately it's YOUR blood pressure that's gonna shoot out of your eyes, not mine.

Pat yourself on the back for your victory and take a deep breath.

have a nice day!

Give the evidence the Church has ever mass killed anyone please?

The Crusades have been beat to death. A worn out example which
isn't an example at all but an excuse by those who do not wish to follow the Church established by Christ.

All men are sinners, so there were likely "sinners" in the Crusades. Like
now, the serviceman who killed all those innocent civilians in Afghanistan.
The reason for the Crusades were to defend the holiest ground to keep
Muslims from destroying it. To name it, where our Lord was crucified!!!

Originally posted by colbe


Give the evidence the Church has ever mass killed anyone please?

How do you define the Church? If you are including duly appointed members of the Catholic hiearchy, than Torquemada springs to mind.

Eric

reply to post by colbe

Give the evidence the Church has ever mass killed anyone please?

The Crusades have been beat to death. A worn out example which
isn't an example at all but an excuse by those who do not wish to follow the Church established by Christ.

colbe. Seriously? *faceplam*

SIGH

Why do you participate in threads WITHOUT READING THEM? This is the THIRD TIME I've posted this information in this thread, and we're only 6 pages in, for crying out loud!!

And why do you try to convert people to something you know so little about? Perhaps it would be better, for your cause, if you leave the recruiting up to those qualified to address questions and to explain the "reasons". Your way of doing it is chasing people away.

==================================
Here you go: This article is a bulleted, outlined list of the numbers of people slaughtered by decree, followed by a bibliography of sources (quite lengthy), and a video (which I have not yet watched, but will) featuring a 22-year veteran priest. The question the article is presented to answer is this:

How many people have died in the name of Christ, Christianity and Catholicism?

A straightforward question. Following is the link to the article and a disclaimer to its limitations:

VICTIMS OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH by Kelsos
Listed are only events that solely occurred on command of church authorities or were committed in the name of Christianity. (List incomplete)

I find it extraordinary that you are unaware of these atrocities, or the ongoing allegations against the Roman Catholic Church. There you go.
==================================

Originally posted by colbe
...
The Crusades have been beat to death. A worn out example which
isn't an example at all but an excuse by those who do not wish to follow the Church established by Christ.
...

How is the Crusades not "an example at all but an excuse"?

Also, I have a problem with any denomination claiming to be "the Church established by Christ". Besides creating a justification for crusades to fight heretics, this creates chauvinism among Catholics which probably impedes their progress as Christians.

I wouldn't mind if the Catholics were claiming to be the biggest and best Christian denomination, but when they claim to be the only Christian denomination it seems to elevate a fallible human organization above God. The Catholic Church seems to be determining who God can talk to, what God can say, what God can do, etc. The Catholics grow in reverence for their denomination while reverence for God disappears.

I don't mean to be bashing Catholics, but this is the main reason I could never be a Catholic. I know most Catholics don't see this as a problem, but I do.

reply to post by cloudyday

The Catholic Church seems to be determining who God can talk to, what God can say, what God can do, etc. The Catholics grow in reverence for their denomination while reverence for God disappears.

APPLAUSE!!

WHISTLE CLAP HOOT FOOT STOMPING LIGHTER HELD HIGH IN THE AIR

Brilliantly stated cloudy day, fantastic comment. Thanks.
oh, and star, too. It's from me.

You have so adroitly put it there....a worthy signature if you wanted to use it. Yeah, even if it weren't for all the crime and corruption, from what I can tell of his character, all the pomp and circumstance alone would make Jesus shudder (maybe even lose that last supper), but to have those priests still part of the church?

To say that they are still holy men? Give me a break.

Originally posted by colbe

Give the evidence the Church has ever mass killed anyone please?

The Crusades have been beat to death. A worn out example which
isn't an example at all but an excuse by those who do not wish to follow the Church established by Christ.

All men are sinners, so there were likely "sinners" in the Crusades. Like
now, the serviceman who killed all those innocent civilians in Afghanistan.
The reason for the Crusades were to defend the holiest ground to keep
Muslims from destroying it. To name it, where our Lord was crucified!!!

I'm not referring to the Crusades.

How many examples do you require? Let's start with just one, There are more - many more.

Example 1: Pedro Menendez de Aviles, at the founding of St. Augustine, Florida, slaughtered French Protestants already living there. He did it by subterfuge, convincing them to allow themselves to be bound, then slaughtering them at a "dead line". That was the way he "rescued" a shipwrecked contingent bound for Fort Caroline. At Fort Caroline itself, he overran the walls and slaughtered the sick defenders, many of them in their beds. He did this for the stated reason that they were "Lutherans", and not Catholic. They were actually Huguenots, but "Lutheran" was a generic term of the time for Protestants - followers of the heresy of Luther.

Ribault's vessels, meanwhile, had all been wrecked near Cape Canaveral, on the Florida coast. All of his people were saved from the sea, but perished at the hands of the less merciful Spaniards. They tried to make their way to Fort Carolina, ignorant of its sad fate. Ribault, with one hundred and fifty men, was betrayed by one of the sailors who had deserted Laudonniere and turned pirate, and under a promise of mercy he cast himself upon the clemency of Menendez. That leader proceeded to put to death the brave captain and his companions. "Seeing that they were Lutherans," says Mendoza, "the General condemned them all to death; but as I was a priest, and had the bowels of a man, I besought him to accord to me the favor, that he would not put to death those whom we should discover to be Christians. He granted my request. I made inquiry, and found ten or twelve, whom we selected from the number. All the others were executed because they were Lutherans, enemies of our holy Catholic faith." They were led out in parcels of ten, and with their hands tied behind them and at a line drawn in the sand with a cane, by Menendez, they were butchered. So, also, says Barcia, the Spanish historian, who regarded Menendez as the chosen instrument of the Almighty to vindicate his cause. Mendoza tells us, when writing of the massacre at Fort Carolina, that "the Holy Spirit enlightened the understanding" of the commander "to enable him to gain so great a victory."

Source

That was actually just the first source I found on the internet to link to - I didn't come by the knowledge originally from the internet, but from the reports sent back to Philip in Spain.

There are many more non-Crusades examples. Shall I fill the rest of the page with them?

Originally posted by cloudyday

Originally posted by colbe
...
The Crusades have been beat to death. A worn out example which
isn't an example at all but an excuse by those who do not wish to follow the Church established by Christ.
...

How is the Crusades not "an example at all but an excuse"?

Also, I have a problem with any denomination claiming to be "the Church established by Christ". Besides creating a justification for crusades to fight heretics, this creates chauvinism among Catholics which probably impedes their progress as Christians.

I believe the "Church established by Christ" is a lot broader than most realize, and is not limited to Roman Catholicism. I believe it is the entire body of believers, wherever and within whichever denomination they may be found. Denominational boundaries are irrelevant to the Church established by Christ. It is a unity, not a disunity, and the denominational boundaries are from man, not God.

The Roman Catholic Church was established by Constantine, not Christ, just as the Lutheran Church was established by Luther, etc.

As a matter of fact, Christ seemed to have some issues with the Romans. They killed him, yet he won. Who'd've thunk it?

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by colbe

 

Give the evidence the Church has ever mass killed anyone please?

The Crusades have been beat to death. A worn out example which
isn't an example at all but an excuse by those who do not wish to follow the Church established by Christ.

colbe. Seriously? *faceplam*

SIGH

Why do you participate in threads WITHOUT READING THEM? This is the THIRD TIME I've posted this information in this thread, and we're only 6 pages in, for crying out loud!!

And why do you try to convert people to something you know so little about? Perhaps it would be better, for your cause, if you leave the recruiting up to those qualified to address questions and to explain the "reasons". Your way of doing it is chasing people away.

==================================
Here you go: This article is a bulleted, outlined list of the numbers of people slaughtered by decree, followed by a bibliography of sources (quite lengthy), and a video (which I have not yet watched, but will) featuring a 22-year veteran priest. The question the article is presented to answer is this:

How many people have died in the name of Christ, Christianity and Catholicism?

A straightforward question. Following is the link to the article and a disclaimer to its limitations:

VICTIMS OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH by Kelsos
Listed are only events that solely occurred on command of church authorities or were committed in the name of Christianity. (List incomplete)

I find it extraordinary that you are unaware of these atrocities, or the ongoing allegations against the Roman Catholic Church. There you go.
==================================

"wildtimes", you're the one that started another anti-Catholic thread.
I am not going to bother with you're anti-Catholic links, they're not true.

Jesus said, I will not leave my Church in Matthew. The one true faith is Roman Catholicism, everyone objecting here and mocking must come to faith. That's Our Lord's desire but there's free will and pride.

Originally posted by EricD

Originally posted by colbe


Give the evidence the Church has ever mass killed anyone please?

How do you define the Church? If you are including duly appointed members of the Catholic hiearchy, than Torquemada springs to mind.

Eric

Eric,

Jesus used the word "Church" singular in giving Peter, the first Pope the keys of authority. Recall, like David in the Old Covenant.

Roman Catholicism was referred early on the Church. St. Ignatius, third
Bishop of Antioch first called to the Church Catholic. He is an Apostolic Father.

Originally posted by cloudyday

Originally posted by colbe
...
The Crusades have been beat to death. A worn out example which
isn't an example at all but an excuse by those who do not wish to follow the Church established by Christ.
...

How is the Crusades not "an example at all but an excuse"?

Also, I have a problem with any denomination claiming to be "the Church established by Christ". Besides creating a justification for crusades to fight heretics, this creates chauvinism among Catholics which probably impedes their progress as Christians.

I wouldn't mind if the Catholics were claiming to be the biggest and best Christian denomination, but when they claim to be the only Christian denomination it seems to elevate a fallible human organization above God. The Catholic Church seems to be determining who God can talk to, what God can say, what God can do, etc. The Catholics grow in reverence for their denomination while reverence for God disappears.

I don't mean to be bashing Catholics, but this is the main reason I could never be a Catholic. I know most Catholics don't see this as a problem, but I do.

edit on 23-3-2012 by cloudyday because: (no reason given)

Classic denial of the truth. Read history and you'll cease to be whatever
belief you accept at present. Where is the 'reverence' in rejecting
most of Our Lord's revelation in the Gospel? What happened, your
comments are so snotty but this is the intention of thread.

Promise me cloudyday, if God shows you the true faith is Roman Catholicism, that you accept His enlightenment and then you will become Catholic? Same for everyone else here....I wish.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by colbe

Give the evidence the Church has ever mass killed anyone please?

The Crusades have been beat to death. A worn out example which
isn't an example at all but an excuse by those who do not wish to follow the Church established by Christ.

All men are sinners, so there were likely "sinners" in the Crusades. Like
now, the serviceman who killed all those innocent civilians in Afghanistan.
The reason for the Crusades were to defend the holiest ground to keep
Muslims from destroying it. To name it, where our Lord was crucified!!!

I'm not referring to the Crusades.

How many examples do you require? Let's start with just one, There are more - many more.

Example 1: Pedro Menendez de Aviles, at the founding of St. Augustine, Florida, slaughtered French Protestants already living there. He did it by subterfuge, convincing them to allow themselves to be bound, then slaughtering them at a "dead line". That was the way he "rescued" a shipwrecked contingent bound for Fort Caroline. At Fort Caroline itself, he overran the walls and slaughtered the sick defenders, many of them in their beds. He did this for the stated reason that they were "Lutherans", and not Catholic. They were actually Huguenots, but "Lutheran" was a generic term of the time for Protestants - followers of the heresy of Luther.

Ribault's vessels, meanwhile, had all been wrecked near Cape Canaveral, on the Florida coast. All of his people were saved from the sea, but perished at the hands of the less merciful Spaniards. They tried to make their way to Fort Carolina, ignorant of its sad fate. Ribault, with one hundred and fifty men, was betrayed by one of the sailors who had deserted Laudonniere and turned pirate, and under a promise of mercy he cast himself upon the clemency of Menendez. That leader proceeded to put to death the brave captain and his companions. "Seeing that they were Lutherans," says Mendoza, "the General condemned them all to death; but as I was a priest, and had the bowels of a man, I besought him to accord to me the favor, that he would not put to death those whom we should discover to be Christians. He granted my request. I made inquiry, and found ten or twelve, whom we selected from the number. All the others were executed because they were Lutherans, enemies of our holy Catholic faith." They were led out in parcels of ten, and with their hands tied behind them and at a line drawn in the sand with a cane, by Menendez, they were butchered. So, also, says Barcia, the Spanish historian, who regarded Menendez as the chosen instrument of the Almighty to vindicate his cause. Mendoza tells us, when writing of the massacre at Fort Carolina, that "the Holy Spirit enlightened the understanding" of the commander "to enable him to gain so great a victory."

Source

That was actually just the first source I found on the internet to link to - I didn't come by the knowledge originally from the internet, but from the reports sent back to Philip in Spain.

There are many more non-Crusades examples. Shall I fill the rest of the page with them?

edit on 2012/3/23 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)

neno,

You can look at the first "scandal" Judas was with Our Lord for three
years and look what he did. If your example is true, fine, proof again
humanity has a fallen nature. Remember Cromwell and the English
persecution of Catholics in England and in Ireland. The number is millions
of Irish killed and starved plus English Catholics were killed too.

The faith is still the true faith, man is the sinner.

Originally posted by colbe

I am not going to bother with you're anti-Catholic links, they're not true.

"Hear, O foolish people, and without understanding: who have eyes, and see not: and ears, and hear not."

- Jeremiah 5:21, Douay-Rheims version, so that even Catholics have a need to heed.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by cloudyday

Originally posted by colbe
...
The Crusades have been beat to death. A worn out example which
isn't an example at all but an excuse by those who do not wish to follow the Church established by Christ.
...

How is the Crusades not "an example at all but an excuse"?

Also, I have a problem with any denomination claiming to be "the Church established by Christ". Besides creating a justification for crusades to fight heretics, this creates chauvinism among Catholics which probably impedes their progress as Christians.

I believe the "Church established by Christ" is a lot broader than most realize, and is not limited to Roman Catholicism. I believe it is the entire body of believers, wherever and within whichever denomination they may be found. Denominational boundaries are irrelevant to the Church established by Christ. It is a unity, not a disunity, and the denominational boundaries are from man, not God.

The Roman Catholic Church was established by Constantine, not Christ, just as the Lutheran Church was established by Luther, etc.

As a matter of fact, Christ seemed to have some issues with the Romans. They killed him, yet he won. Who'd've thunk it?

neno,

Your response is classic Protestantism. Jesus didn't establish Protestantism so their definition of the Church is just what you
stated but, do I ever agree disunity and denomination are from
man not God.

The line about Constantine, nah, true history says something different.


take care,


colbe

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by colbe

I am not going to bother with you're anti-Catholic links, they're not true.

"Hear, O foolish people, and without understanding: who have eyes, and see not: and ears, and hear not."

- Jeremiah 5:21, Douay-Rheims version, so that even Catholics have a need to heed.

One sentence protests or a library of books written do not matter. We can know, there is one faith. Come to the faith instead, the Remnant
is Roman Catholic neno.