The Massive UFO Flyover of Arizona, March 13, 1997 aka: The Phoenix Lights

reply to post by Frank Warren


Thanks Frank. I'll take a listen.

Greetings All,

Here is the interview that good friend and colleague Kenny Young (RIP) did (on Tuesday, August 5, 1997) with Capt. Drew Sullins, of the Maryland Air National Guard regarding the flare drop:

PHOENIX LIGHTS: Project SNOWBIRD and the Flare Drop An Interview By Kenny Young

Here is MUFON's original report by Richard Motzer:

THE PHOENIX LIGHTS, THE REAL INVESTIGATION

Listen to Mike Fortson and Dr Bruce Maccabee discussing the events of March 13th 1997 on ATS Live; the latter reiterates (for the umpteenth time):

The Lights at Ten O'Clock were Flares; The Real UFO Business was Between Eight and Nine PM" (3-10-12)

(vidcast is at the bottom of the article)

Cheers
Frank

Originally posted by chunder
reply to post by Human_Alien

 

Well, as far as I can tell it is widely accepted that the March 13th 1997 10pm sightings and video were of a flare drop. Dilettoso later changed his opinion to the flares explanation. Maccabee was always of the opinion they were flares. Motzer's triangulations and analysis showed them as highly likely flares.

There is here say on many sites, including threads on ATS from AF personnel, that there was a 10pm flare drop and I think nearly all witnesses to the earlier events accept that there was a later flare drop. Symington appears to have got the timeline and the two sightings mixed - as did the media at the time and many since. The 10pm sighting and the 8 or 9 lights in an arc videos and photo's appear to be flares period, whilst the earlier sightings are unexplained.

There are many possible reasons why the later flares were captured on film but only a single, short inconclusive video of an earlier sighting is available, aside from Jeff Willes daylight orb footage.

Firstly the flares were visible for nearly 5 minutes and were relatively stationary - and didn't indicate a large craft to witnesses. The earlier sightings were shorter lived, of moving lights and dark masses that indicated craft.


For Mike - did you have any camera or phone etc on you that could capture images and if so what was it that stpped you from doing so ?

The only camera's we had were a Poloroid Instamatic and a Kodiak 110. We never considered going to fetch either of them. Actually, all we thought of was taking it all in and trying hard not to blink. We selected to absord the sighting and not to miss a millisecond of observation time.

No cell phone at that time. No 35mm camera. However, I must sat that within a few days after the sighting we owned a Sony Hi8 camcorder with 0 LUX, a tripod and a nice pair of binoculars.

Originally posted by dashdespatch
if hundreds of people saw this huge v shaped craft why did nobody have the common sense to photograph or film it

I don't think it's a common sense thing. It's more like...where's the camera? Are the batteries fresh? Is there film in the camera? And most importantly....How much observation time will I lose while trying to find the camera?

Originally posted by chunder
reply to post by Human_Alien

 

Well, as far as I can tell it is widely accepted that the March 13th 1997 10pm sightings and video were of a flare drop. Dilettoso later changed his opinion to the flares explanation. Maccabee was always of the opinion they were flares. Motzer's triangulations and analysis showed them as highly likely flares.

There is here say on many sites, including threads on ATS from AF personnel, that there was a 10pm flare drop and I think nearly all witnesses to the earlier events accept that there was a later flare drop. Symington appears to have got the timeline and the two sightings mixed - as did the media at the time and many since. The 10pm sighting and the 8 or 9 lights in an arc videos and photo's appear to be flares period, whilst the earlier sightings are unexplained.

There are many possible reasons why the later flares were captured on film but only a single, short inconclusive video of an earlier sighting is available, aside from Jeff Willes daylight orb footage.

Firstly the flares were visible for nearly 5 minutes and were relatively stationary - and didn't indicate a large craft to witnesses. The earlier sightings were shorter lived, of moving lights and dark masses that indicated craft.


For Mike - did you have any camera or phone etc on you that could capture images and if so what was it that stpped you from doing so ?

I don't believe cell phone cameras were invented yet. I don't even think we had a cell phone in 1997. The camera's we did own would be worthless at night. We didn't think of camera's. Our concentration was the awesomeness we were watching pass in front of us.

Please read my original report.

Originally posted by Human_Alien

Originally posted by chunder
reply to post by Human_Alien

 

Beat me to it and for the last week or so I have considered starting a thread to that effect !

I don't subscribe to the theory that the earlier sightings were jets but accept the later lights as flares. I wonder how often flares were dropped at that location - if very rarely then to coincide with the earlier sightings is a big coincidence.

If deliberate then to obfuscate but considering the delay it would seem unlikely what was seen was military.

I honestly didn't think this was an issue of debate and debunk. The Phoenix Lights, 1997 was a pivotal event.

My friend in Sedona, called me up and told me about this sighting (the one in the valley wasn't known just yet) the next morning on the 14th. It hadn't made national news yet. So I was right on this right from the get-go.

I remember reading and hearing that the military denied any involvement with any drills and knew nothing about this 10PM sighting.

I remember the Governor made his speech regarding this event....because too many people were demanding answers and.......he marched out that alien-custom clad guy as a joke.
I was pissed.
How dare he make light of this? He later apologized and said he wanted to lighten up the mood because people were freaking out. (freaking out? I thought they were flares?)


Yeah, 15 years later, it's easy to start a thread and have people from all walks of life chime in and say whatever they want due to whatever agenda they have but, this wasn't the case that year!!!
I was on top of this story, on the morning of March 14 and pretty much have been attached to it ever since.

How about the famous video analyst, Jim Dilettoso (who I also corresponded with) ? He determined the lights over Phoenix were from an unknown source. He firstly and immediately ruled out flares. What?...we can't trust professionals now?

So we can't trust 'professional' video experts and we SHOULDN'T believe a man who was good enough and intelligent enough to RUN that entire state as Governor too?
But we SHOULD believe random people trying to debunk this event instead who want us to believe..... the Governor was 'told' they were flares and yet choose to ignore that 'fact' and start a rumor instead!
Really?
Whatever...........................

It is crucial that you all realize.....the military denied this at first and I will try to find proof of that. I am not certain when they decided to take the credit but I assure you, that wasn't the case at first.

Former governor Symington made his announcement that he was going to find out what happened on March 13, 1997 on June 19th after the USA Today story broke on June 18th ...some 3 months later. Then he brought out his aide later in the day (6/19) at his 5 pm news conference. This all happened on June 19th...more than 3 months after the mass sighting. Former governor Symington did not go public or to the media on March 14th....he waited until June 19th.

Originally posted by dashdespatch
reply to post by Zcustosmorum

 

how?

4 out of 5 of the 10 pm videographers had been filming lights SSW of Phoenix for several days. All of which were on mountainside homes. The rest of us (valley floor) could not see them...mountains, trees, houses, etc.

Originally posted by mikefortson

Originally posted by dashdespatch
reply to post by Zcustosmorum

 

how?

4 out of 5 of the 10 pm videographers had been filming lights SSW of Phoenix for several days. All of which were on mountainside homes. The rest of us (valley floor) could not see them...mountains, trees, houses, etc.

Also, as Motzer wrote in his MUFON (May 1997):

Going back to the first newscasts, they ended by saying the Army National Guard said that just before 10:00 p.m. on March 13, 1997, they shot off target flares for training. We had dismissed this at first because the witnesses felt certain these lights were in front of South Mountain and over the city. This caused the early confusion of the V formation with these lights. The flares are very bright even at a distance of 50 miles and will overload a camcorder chip. They also have a parachute attached to them. As the flare is positioned and ignites, the heat from the flare heats the air above, which is trapped in its parachute, causing it to slow down its descent. Toward its final phase, before extinguishing, the heat output decreases and the flare will start to fall faster. It will also have a lateral motion due to its delivery system, either hindered by the prevailing winds or accelerated. All the videos that I tested for that night or other nights showed this feature. Even the control tower people at Sky Harbor Airport said they saw smoke emanating from the flares. Let's quickly review the evidence for the case for flares behind the Estrellas:

1. These events have been going on for some time, three months or more.

2. The color is bright amber.

3. Smoke was seen by some.

4. The on to off time of each light is very consistent.

5. The general time lines and dates are repeated (for that night they occurred at 8:30, 9:25, and 10:00 pm)

6. Mostly week nights.7. The Gila Bend Gunnery Range hours match the time line.

8. All drop vertically and move in a lateral direction consistent with flares.

9. All video tapes that have the complete cycle, that is, from start to finish, show this.

10. Two videos, shot at close range, seem to show smoke flowing around them.

11. On one of the tapes, the person asks if they are flares.

12. The Army National Guard said they shot-off these flares.

13. Six news programs announced that the military said they were flares and two reports were from military pilots who located them at the Gila Bend Gunnery Range behind the Estrella Mountains.

More . . .

Cheers,
Frank

Originally posted by mikefortson

Originally posted by dashdespatch
if hundreds of people saw this huge v shaped craft why did nobody have the common sense to photograph or film it

I don't think it's a common sense thing. It's more like...where's the camera? Are the batteries fresh? Is there film in the camera? And most importantly....How much observation time will I lose while trying to find the camera?

if you saw a ufo flying overhead, a once in a lifetime event, do u think your first reaction would be " i must go into the house and get my camera and film this"
no. and give up the chance of seeing an alien (maybe) craft?
like mike said, 'how much observation time will i lose trying to find the camera?'
i would bet that 99% of people would be rooted to the spot, in awe and wonder and bewilderment and marvel at this magnificent spectacle above them. i so wish i had seen it.
this would explain why there are hardly any photo's or video (that i know of) of this event

reply to post by SecretKnowledge


Well said SecretKnowledge and so very true.

I hope you get your chance.

Originally posted by mikefortson

Originally posted by Wushusigung
I have a question, (by the way, it was indeed a very nice live show) My question is one of simplicity, what exactly do YOU think the V-shaped objest was

I strongly believe it was not of this Earth. Because they (3) changed shape from V shape into a white ball of light and vanished (5:30 pm Crown King, AZ.) it was deemed possibly interdiminsional. Also, because of the massive size, ability to pass at low spped (30-45 mph) ability to do so at low altitude with no noise what so ever.

I don't deal with beliefs which exist only in the mind. Give me good, ol' evidence to convince me. Besides, your reply is 100% speculation and not trustworthy.

Definition of BELIEF
a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing

Definition of EVIDENCE
something that furnishes proof

Every once in a while someone revives the ol' Phoenix "lights" bs and tries to convince those not familiar with the event that a giant alien spacecraft was responsible for the arc of lights shown. Since day one I didn't accept that tale. Then a documentary proved that the arc of lights were really flares. It didn't matter, the gullible believers didn't want to be budged from their weak position. Here is a reply I made back in 2009 to such a believer. Nothing changes.

While I have the documentary on videotape I just searched YouTube and, unfortunately, was not able to find it. If you can find it, please post the damned thing to shut up the believers.

UFO videos being removed from youtube, page 2
www.abovetopsecret.com...

My thinking has not nothing to do with the irrefutable evidence and you are in no position to question it. I've always claimed that not one single individual in the city of Phoenix looked up and saw anything but a star-filled sky. This is because as it is known, the flares were dropped in another location far from the city's sky and only those living in the hills facing in the direction of the area where the flares were dropped could see them.

You are obviously not aware that in addition to the famous video that you are used to seeing that a documentary was made and is shown once in a while showing investigators going to the exact same spot as the famous night video and shooting the scene in daylight. When both night and day videos are synchronized, the flares are seen to disappear one by one behind an appropriate mountain peak. I'd like to see you question those results. And, like I said, an airplane's strobe light is visible on some versions of the night video. At least one of the airplanes that just dropped the flares!

So, yes, I say good riddance to the Phoenix flares video!

reply to post by The Shrike


Shrike, it has been reasonably well established that the 10 pm "lights" were flares. That point is not in dispute for any informed person. However, reports began much earlier in the night, before those flares were dropped. Those reports cannot be credibly dismissed as a formation of airplanes, and they obviously were not the flares that were dropped later that night. If you have another more reasonable explanation for what those people were seeing earlier in the evening, please bring it forth for discussion. If not, at least stop pretending that the issue to be dealt with is whether or not the lights in the "famous" Phoenix Lights video are flares. They are. End of story. Let's move on to the actual question.

Here is an excerpt from a 1998 radio interview with a Phoenix City Councilwoman who was inundated with queries from hundreds of her constituents who witnessed the earlier event.

Originally posted by Orkojoker
reply to post by The Shrike

 

Shrike, it has been reasonably well established that the 10 pm "lights" were flares. That point is not in dispute for any informed person. However, reports began much earlier in the night, before those flares were dropped. Those reports cannot be credibly dismissed as a formation of airplanes, and they obviously were not the flares that were dropped later that night. If you have another more reasonable explanation for what those people were seeing earlier in the evening, please bring it forth for discussion. If not, at least stop pretending that the issue to be dealt with is whether or not the lights in the "famous" Phoenix Lights video are flares. They are. End of story. Let's move on to the actual question.

Here is an excerpt from a 1998 radio interview with a Phoenix City Councilwoman who was inundated with queries from hundreds of her constituents who witnessed the earlier event.

Look again at the title of the thread!

You are wrong in one respect. The flares are still being disputed. Very few replies support the flares.

However, dealing with the "earlier event" of a < shaped "object". A video exists, I included it here in a reply and that is the only evidence of this event. The video doesn't show what the believers want to believe. Reports unsupported by evidence are hearsay. It doesn't matter who the person is or what post they hold. Anyone can say anything. The only video shows airplanes, period.

What is the opposite to what one sees in the video, that a real giant alien craft flew overhead? Not without evidence.

The animated video is not evidence and it is a joke.

reply to post by The Shrike


hahaha look at this guy xD trying so hard to not belive in such a thing !! haha i love skeptics, they miss out on all the action and always will because of thier narrow minds and closed heart chakra!

I belive people saw either an Interdimensional ship which belonged to off-world entities, OR they witnessed a top secret space craft project built by the american government, aided by the current ET beings who assist our secret governments.

again LOL@Skeptics xD Ive seen a spaceship much larger then the one described in PHX in 1997. No lights, I was fetching fire wood, looked up in the sky; the massive ship which was far out in Earths orbit (somewhere between Earth and Moon) came into my reality as if it just "uncloaked", I watched it silently glide, then 5 seconds after it cloaked and was "gone". The craft was ET, was bigger then the moon in comparison of where it was in the Orbit, if it was 100 ft above my head.. Id say the size of New York City. Laugh all ya want Ive also seen 14 other light ships (interdimensional) last year. Havent seen anything in about 8 months though

Thanks for sharing your story OP

~ Love is an art

The only camera's we had were a Poloroid Instamatic and a Kodiak 110. We never considered going to fetch either of them. Actually, all we thought of was taking it all in and trying hard not to blink. We selected to absord the sighting and not to miss a millisecond of observation time.

reply to post by mikefortson


I find this statement very true and most likely probably a normal reaction to seeing something so unusual and awe inspiring. Personally my reaction would be the same, but at the same time I probably would be yelling for my wife and kids to help support what I was observing. How often are you charging batteries on a video camera anyways? The only time I would be charging batteries at the time would be the day before a birthday party or a special occasion.

Here's my question, how often is this incident discussed around Phoenix? Has this incident been pushed under the rug and does it seem that the media and the government is trying to misinform the public to keep it from being investigated?

Question for Mike Fortson:

How would you compare the (1) apparent size, (2) brightness, and (3) edge sharpness of the ventral light nearest your observation point when the object was at elevation of approximately 45 degrees with those of the full moon? And if possible. maybe you could give us a rough estimate of the spacing between those lights in units of apparant size of a full moon, as well as number of lights (supposedly five or seven).

Thanks in advance.

Originally posted by SecretKnowledge

Originally posted by mikefortson

Originally posted by dashdespatch
if hundreds of people saw this huge v shaped craft why did nobody have the common sense to photograph or film it

I don't think it's a common sense thing. It's more like...where's the camera? Are the batteries fresh? Is there film in the camera? And most importantly....How much observation time will I lose while trying to find the camera?

if you saw a ufo flying overhead, a once in a lifetime event, do u think your first reaction would be " i must go into the house and get my camera and film this"
no. and give up the chance of seeing an alien (maybe) craft?
like mike said, 'how much observation time will i lose trying to find the camera?'
i would bet that 99% of people would be rooted to the spot, in awe and wonder and bewilderment and marvel at this magnificent spectacle above them. i so wish i had seen it.
this would explain why there are hardly any photo's or video (that i know of) of this event

edit on 14/3/12 by SecretKnowledge because: if i was an american, i'd vote for ron paul too

Exactly. Back in the 70s, my parents and brothers were in the back yard and I was in my room as they witnessed a big cigar-shaped metallic UFO hovering in the sky rather close. One of my brothers ran into the house to get me so I could see it and by the time we got back outside, it was gone.

On the night in question I was walking east from my friend Joey's house to my house about 8-10 homes away, on the same street. I don't know who looked up, or why, but I did witness the lights in the V shaped pattern. I quickly ran inside my home and told my mother to come check out the UFO, but she was talking to my aunt and blew me off. I was in the seventh grade, it was a school night I believe, and if it wasn't, my curfew was ~9 pm.

I only created an account to challenge the person who claims nobody from Phoenix looked up and saw the lights in a V shaped pattern. Unfortunately, I have no evidence to present to this community other than my firsthand account of the events that took place, and of the events that took place later in the evening, I have no firsthand account. I was actually unaware of the second round of events with the flares until reading this post, but they seem to coincide with other information I have held onto.

To me this was an extraordinary event that I was fortunate enough to experience. My feeling regarding the UFO I witnessed is in the realm of this Earth. I never believed it be an ET UFO. The theory that strikes closest to the truth for me is that the UFO was using I-17 as a guide.

I witnessed this from approximately 35th ave and Union Hills. Which straddles I-17 and is North Phoenix, during this time there was little development past Beardsley.

I also never knew that the warthogs from d.m. dropped the ~10pm flares, guess you learn something new everyday.

However, the threeOfif FS swing shift runway crew was contacted by the baese cammandir to leave early on the night in question, before departure they witnessed a few jets(dont know actual # or if f15orf16; i can get this info if anyone requests) prepare for takeoff, which of course means no documentation of takeoff, but more importantly no documentation of landing(security clearance could be a primary factor as to why enlisted runway crew left, this also leaves a nice gap between the swing shift and mid shift for the flare events to take place without extra scrutiny if there was a mid shift at all). I can find out the actual number and type of aircraft within a day if anyone requests as well as if there was a mid crew. The exact time of relief by the runway crew may not be obtainable but I will ask.

Originally posted by The Shrike

Reports unsupported by evidence are hearsay.

No they aren't - look up the definition of hearsay. Mike is a first hand witness.