To the modern christan church, throw down your pagan ways and return to your first love

Originally posted by vaelamin
reply to post by novastrike81

 

Lmao Again here you go with these so called impossibly high standards

Do you seem to find these impossible?

Evidently it's too hard for you since all you're capable of is snarky comments and animosity towards my comments.

I'll be seeing you in a not so pleasant place. Unless of course, you somehow have a change of heart and can show a little more compassion like some of the other Christian members on this forum.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

It's says so right in the text beginning at Genesis 1:1. "Elohim" is plural of "EL", or "god" in Hebrew. Every time it appears in the text it's technically a grammatical error because it's a plural word used in a singular context. (Gods)

Just why does "US" have to mean the 3 of the christian trinity? Why cant it be 4 of 6 or 12 or 24?

Not 4 or 6 or 12 or 24 and 3 and only 3 is because the Bible only speaks of 3. The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit.

What do you make of the Shema "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one."
Do you believe that it actually meant that God is triune?

I already said it, then we can say a man and a woman is "one" flesh correct? And no it has nothing to do with children because Jesus uses the example of divorce.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


John 14:8-11 was a later edition to the Latin Vulgate possibly the 15th century. In the original manuscript, you can see where this passage was added in the margins.

Scholars clearly recognize that 1 John 14:8 is not part of the New Testament text. Yet it is still included by some fundamentalists as biblical proof for the Trinity doctrine. Even the majority of the more recent New Testament translations do not contain the above words. They are not found in Moffatt, Phillips, the Revised Standard Version, Williams, or The Living Bible

reply to post by NOTurTypical

the Bible only speaks of 3. The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit.

The 3 of the trinity is NOT mentioned in the OT, which you were quoting from earlier.
God being "Father, son and the Holy Spirit" is NOT stated in the Old Testament. Not once.
Instead, it is repeated over and over in the OT that God is one.

If the trinity were true, why is it that the jews, the original keepers of the OT, never knew of the trinity? Are you telling me that they were clueless about the nature of God for 3000 years, and only you christians have the perfect understanding of the OT?

I already said it, then we can say a man and a woman is "one" flesh? And no it has nothing to do with children because Jesus uses the example of divorce.

I'm looking at the original statement in Genesis which Jesus referred to in Matthew 19.

Matthew 19:5-6
"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?"So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

Anyway, it was in context of the importance of a married man and divorce staying together...and had nothing to do with the nature of God...unless you interpret it to be so.

If you want to study the nature of God(whether He is one or triune), you should go by the plenty of verses where the oneness of God is explicitly mentioned.
So theres no need to pick at unrelated verses just because the word "one" appears in it.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


You have God and His Spirit mentioned in Genesis 1 alone. The Son in in Genesis 18 talking to Abraham. Pslam 2 is a convo between all 3 of them.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


The answer to your question is Genesis 2:23-24

Answer: The creation of marriage is recorded in Genesis 2:23-24: "The man said, ‘This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called “woman,” for she was taken out of man.’ For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh." God created man and then made woman to complement him. Marriage is God’s “fix” for the fact that “it is not good for the man to be alone” (Genesis 2:18).

reply to post by NOTurTypical

You have God and His Spirit mentioned in Genesis 1 alone. The Son in in Genesis 18 talking to Abraham. Pslam 2 is a convo between all 3 of them.

None of those verses teach that God is triune. ... but you are interpreting a trinity into verses where elements of the trinity are mentioned.

What do we do with the parts where God Himself states that He is one?
Deuteronomy32:39, 1 Chronicles 17:20, Isaiah44:6,8, Isaiah 46:9 , Hosea 13:4, Joel 2:27.

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
-Deuteronomy32:39

For I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.
-Isaiah 46:9

Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me; for there is no savior beside me.
-Hosea 13:4


Are you seriously telling me that we disregard explicit statements such as these, from God Himself and focus on interpreting "trinity" into certain verses?

reply to post by Wonders

I would love to have a discussion with a Christian that takes the teachings of Jesus into consideration, as a truth undeniable and irrefutable. My point stands, arguing the day of Jesus' birth is small bunions compared to the blatant disregard for the words of Jesus.

I'll play!
I've been saying that same thing (that what Jesus himself said is the most crucial and only source to look to) for the last few days for sure (and thinking it for the last few months).

reply to post by novastrike81

Why would you let your kids fear and worship an invisible man who will send you to an eternal place of fire and torture for all eternity if you don't accept him into your heart? I'd much rather deal with a man who did nice things for people than deal with a tyrant who sets impossibly high standards and then damns those who can't follow them. I didn't ask to be born, and I don't wish to be punished for something I wasn't in control of in the first place.

Thanks for saying that. I agree. Not only are they impossible standards, but it's washed into your brain that you "failed to do the things you should have, and did the things you should not have done."
A little kid hearing that is like ..... what??! What did I do?! What did I not do?!
Every Sunday, on knees, saying "I'm not worthy so much as to gather up the crumbs under your table".....a 4-year old....5, 6, 7, 8-year old........ etc.

Nice to meet you; and I hope we can have discussions of these issues in the future.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

And Jesus gives only 2 commands for the new covenant, Love Him and Love other people. Love is the fulfillment of the "law". That's why Jesus said "My yoke is easy and My burden is light." In the OT, there were 613 laws that needed to be followed. Treat people just as you'd want them to treat you. Care for them first, love them, and love Jesus.

OMG, NuT!! I starred your post!!
This is a grand day indeed.....

That's all there is to it! It doesn't require proclamations or public dunking....
it's just...
do what I say and do what I did.

Woo hoo!!

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
And Jesus gives only 2 commands for the new covenant, Love Him and Love other people. Love is the fulfillment of the "law". That's why Jesus said "My yoke is easy and My burden is light." In the OT, there were 613 laws that needed to be followed. Treat people just as you'd want them to treat you. Care for them first, love them, and love Jesus.

We've been through this before. God's law is eternal and never changing, do we agree? This makes the NT hard to grasp because it's inconsistencies towards the OT. I'll play along though because I enjoy discussions that require critical thought.

I won't disagree that Jesus proclaimed the two commandments you listed. But he also gave other commandments as well. I know you're an advocate of his 2 commandments, but don't forget to add the others. Deception is the same as lieing.

Second, preaching love is one thing; doing it is another. Tell me, why are most Christians so intolerant and full of bigotry towards non-believers and believers of other faiths? Either I'm missing something, or practice what you preach doesn't mean what it used to. My father-in-law refuses to speak to me and my wife (who's Christian) because I'm not a believer. I'm not an immoral or evil person, but being a non-believer lumps me into that category by default. Kind of the opposite of Jesus' message if you ask me.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

And Jesus gives only 2 commands for the new covenant, Love Him and Love other people. Love is the fulfillment of the "law". That's why Jesus said "My yoke is easy and My burden is light." In the OT, there were 613 laws that needed to be followed. Treat people just as you'd want them to treat you. Care for them first, love them, and love Jesus.

OMG, NuT!! I starred your post!!
This is a grand day indeed.....

That's all there is to it! It doesn't require proclamations or public dunking....
it's just...
do what I say and do what I did.

Woo hoo!!

Thank you Ma'am! LOL

But that's the laws/commandments Christ gave man as conditions of said new covenant. You must enter a covenantal relationship with Him initially. He is our Living Savior. He is the Lord, and deserves honor as such. It doesn't make sense for me why some people will believe something Jesus says in one book of the Bible, or chapter, or verse, and completely ignore something else. He said He came to "this hour", and "to die for the remission, or forgiveness of sins.

Just simple belief, believe Him and trust Him, then start loving everyone. Part A determines your eternal destiny, there are a lot of people in hell who loved others, but never loved Jesus. Christ died for all of us, bar none. Even the people who would reject Him, He died for them as well.

Originally posted by novastrike81

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
And Jesus gives only 2 commands for the new covenant, Love Him and Love other people. Love is the fulfillment of the "law". That's why Jesus said "My yoke is easy and My burden is light." In the OT, there were 613 laws that needed to be followed. Treat people just as you'd want them to treat you. Care for them first, love them, and love Jesus.

We've been through this before.

Whoa, just because we've discussed something before doesn't mean you made me change my mind, or what the Bible says in regards to.

God's law is eternal and never changing, do we agree?

Sure. But there are dispensations where He operates with mankind differently. Example: How were men saved before Moses and the 10 Commandments? How did Noah know what was "clean" and "unclean" when that was told to man much later? How were men saved before John the Baptist and where did their spirits go when they died? How are men saved now after Christ and where do their spirits go when they die, from Calvary to today??

This makes the NT hard to grasp because it's inconsistencies towards the OT.

What are you talking about? The NT is the fulfillment of the OT. Everything in the OT points to Christ, it's the story of a nation that's purpose was to bring about the Messiah, the NT is about that Messiah.

I won't disagree that Jesus proclaimed the two commandments you listed. But he also gave other commandments as well. I know you're an advocate of his 2 commandments, but don't forget to add the others.

What other commandments? They either fall within "loving God" or "loving other people".

Deception is the same as lieing.

Sure, and proclaiming a lie when one isn't there is pretty rude.

Second, preaching love is one thing; doing it is another.

Sure. But that's obvious. That's why we have pastoral epistles and the NT just doesn't end with "Okay, no go out and teach people about Me and love everyone!!" We need to mature in the faith.

Tell me, why are most Christians so intolerant and full of bigotry towards non-believers and believers of other faiths?

Because they are religionists. They worship religion and not Jesus. They think because they follow a list of do's and dont's and keep to that list more than someone else that they are better than that other person. Think of the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican. Now think of what the Pharisee was saying to God that Jesus was pointing out.

Religion never leads to humble joy, either rejection of oneself or rejection of others.

Either I'm missing something, or practice what you preach doesn't mean what it used to.

It always meant what it used to, you're ignoring that Jesus said there were tares amongst the wheat, and wolves dressed as sheep. Imagine that, still going 2,000 years later tares amongst the wheat and wolves in sheep's clothing. But that's also what Christ said, to leave them both grow together until the harvest, then "gather the tares and burn them." Tares are placed by the enemy to scatter the flock and to give bad examples to the world of what "Christianity" is all about.

My father-in-law refuses to speak to me and my wife (who's Christian) because I'm not a believer.

Seems like he's a really religious guy. I'm sorry, but that's not a good example of a Christian. That would be Jesus dying for His enemies. Or Him washing His apostle's feet.

I'm not an immoral or evil person, but being a non-believer lumps me into that category by default.

We all are. We're either repentant or unrepentant sinners. But we're all evil, that's why Jesus died for us.

Kind of the opposite of Jesus' message if you ask me.

I don't think you understand Jesus' message, and I don't mean to offend by saying that.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Wonders

 

I would love to have a discussion with a Christian that takes the teachings of Jesus into consideration, as a truth undeniable and irrefutable. My point stands, arguing the day of Jesus' birth is small bunions compared to the blatant disregard for the words of Jesus.

I'll play!

I've been saying that same thing (that what Jesus himself said is the most crucial and only source to look to) for the last few days for sure (and thinking it for the last few months).

Alright, I'm not sure how we will go about this but I have been wanting a bible study partner and am happy to have one online. I have a demanding son so while I am here when I can be, I can't always be here when I want to be, so please don't think that I will give up on studying, replying, asking. I do so because I have, in my opinion, a very good reason to believe that God and Jesus are in fact real. Thanks for responding. Looking forward to learning more!

reply to post by Wonders


Wonders,
I would be happy to discuss what Jesus himself 'said' as recorded by the folks who first wrote it down. The Coptic texts, for example; the Gospel of Thomas, the Apocalypse of James. Also the records of the buddhist monks where St Issa lived....(eagerly awaiting the two books I ordered over the weekend)....
not the Bible, though.

Sorry if that's a disappointment, but I am certainly not one of the qualified to speak to the Bible. There are several here who are, though...
who know that famous tome inside out. I'm not one of them. I'm looking for -- and at -- information prior to its edited version(s). I would simply caution you that many of those experts who participate here have fairly inflexible and consistent opinions, and aren't always so much into querying 'what does this mean?'.

I'm still at that 'what does it really mean?' stage.

reply to post by wildtimes

eagerly awaiting the two books I ordered over the weekend)....

What about the 3 books I suggested? They are really cheap on Amazon.

Originally posted by Wonders

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Wonders

 

I would love to have a discussion with a Christian that takes the teachings of Jesus into consideration, as a truth undeniable and irrefutable. My point stands, arguing the day of Jesus' birth is small bunions compared to the blatant disregard for the words of Jesus.

I'll play!

I've been saying that same thing (that what Jesus himself said is the most crucial and only source to look to) for the last few days for sure (and thinking it for the last few months).

Alright, I'm not sure how we will go about this but I have been wanting a bible study partner and am happy to have one online. I have a demanding son so while I am here when I can be, I can't always be here when I want to be, so please don't think that I will give up on studying, replying, asking. I do so because I have, in my opinion, a very good reason to believe that God and Jesus are in fact real. Thanks for responding. Looking forward to learning more!

I'll bite, I'm online a lot too.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Whoa, just because we've discussed something before doesn't mean you made me change my mind, or what the Bible says in regards to.

I didn't say I changed you're mind, I just said this topic has been addressed before. No hidden messages in that statement.

Sure. But there are dispensations where He operates with mankind differently. Example: How were men saved before Moses and the 10 Commandments?

Men were saved based on faith through works before Moses. Faith came from hearing the word of God.

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Compliance with God's will came through works. So, the way I see it is you were made righteous with God through faith and works alone. Faith being what God told you, and the works would be you carrying out God's will. Example, Abel made the correct sacrifice; Cain's failure to do so went against God's command.

Of course, this is all dependent on whether you believe Paul, or James on this account.

How did Noah know what was "clean" and "unclean" when that was told to man much later?

Excellent observation! It doesn't say does it. I did read a whacky comment that said it was built into all living things at creation. That's how Noah supposedly knew. Honestly, I don't know. Maybe that's something you should ponder some day.

How were men saved before John the Baptist and where did their spirits go when they died?

This kind of ties directly back to your first question. People were saved by faith and by works. Again, it depends on how you interpret scripture. I won't presume to know which one you fall into. Some say it's by grace, through faith. Others think its faith and works. Scripture supports faith and works.

As for where their souls go. I heard they just chilled in Paradise or Abraham's Bosom.

How are men saved now after Christ and where do their spirits go when they die, from Calvary to today??

The requirements of salvation are:

-Belief is required. (Mark 16:16, John 3:16,18,36, John 16:9)
-A confession of belief is required. (Rom 10:9-10)
-Maintaining belief is required. (Heb 6:4-6, 2 Peter 2:20-21)
-Repenting is required. (Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19, Luke 13:3]
-Being baptized is required. (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16)
-Doing some good works is required. (Matt 25:41-46)

What other commandments? They either fall within "loving God" or "loving other people".

The ones pertaining to not lusting, murdering, adultery, etc. It's in Matthew 5.

Because they are religionists. They worship religion and not Jesus. They think because they follow a list of do's and dont's and keep to that list more than someone else that they are better than that other person. Think of the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican. Now think of what the Pharisee was saying to God that Jesus was pointing out.

To be honest, worshiping Jesus is a religion. You can call it a relationship, but it's still a religion.

Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that establishes symbols that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values.

Seems like he's a really religious guy. I'm sorry, but that's not a good example of a Christian. That would be Jesus dying for His enemies. Or Him washing His apostle's feet.

He makes everyone on this board look like boy scouts. However, if Jesus died for all man's sins, that would include his enemies. He wasn't biased towards anyone. Love your neighbors, and love your enemies.

I don't think you understand Jesus' message, and I don't mean to offend by saying that.

If you're saying I don't understand what love means, then yes that would be rather rude of you.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Wonders

 

Wonders,
I would be happy to discuss what Jesus himself 'said' as recorded by the folks who first wrote it down. The Coptic texts, for example; the Gospel of Thomas, the Apocalypse of James. Also the records of the buddhist monks where St Issa lived....(eagerly awaiting the two books I ordered over the weekend)....
not the Bible, though.

Sorry if that's a disappointment, but I am certainly not one of the qualified to speak to the Bible. There are several here who are, though...
who know that famous tome inside out. I'm not one of them. I'm looking for -- and at -- information prior to its edited version(s). I would simply caution you that many of those experts who participate here have fairly inflexible and consistent opinions, and aren't always so much into querying 'what does this mean?'.

I'm still at that 'what does it really mean?' stage.

edit on 28-2-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

I don't know anything about the Coptic texts, Gospel of Thomas..none of that. But I can see I've got my work cut out for me. And NotUrTypical, hi, looking forward to it.