Look if you doubt China's might

Originally posted by SunWuKong

There is a saying that I enjoy using very much: "a fool talks tactics; a professional discusses logistics".

I like that saying, I will remember it and then quote it as my own

That's what I pretty much did. Saw it once posted on ATS somewhere, and I never saw any source of who originally said it...

As for the Chinese stealing a stealth helicopter... I don't recall that story, unless you mean the blueprints for the Comanche project that was scrapped (too bad, in my opinion).

Here is the Chinese ZW-10. Seems to have a few Comanche characteristics... I guess they didn't enclose the tail rotor just so the whole package wouldn't look so much like the Comanche:

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
As for the Chinese stealing a stealth helicopter... I don't recall that story, unless you mean the blueprints for the Comanche project that was scrapped (too bad, in my opinion).

My friend was telling me about this one so ... could be a load of BS!

It was to do with the Stealth chopper that went for the Osama raid. Apparently they had to land it down and the Pakistanis confiscated it as it was an unsanctioned US mission, since then it has gone to the Chinese. My friend also stated that they had returned the tail section only after continued US pressure.

Just did a quick internet search as the 'my friend told me' post can fall apart easily

www.ft.com...

The Chinese got to sample and review it but apparently the Pakistani government have it.

Originally posted by SunWuKong

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
As for the Chinese stealing a stealth helicopter... I don't recall that story, unless you mean the blueprints for the Comanche project that was scrapped (too bad, in my opinion).

My friend was telling me about this one so ... could be a load of BS!

It was to do with the Stealth chopper that went for the Osama raid. Apparently they had to land it down and the Pakistanis confiscated it as it was an unsanctioned US mission, since then it has gone to the Chinese. My friend also stated that they had returned the tail section only after continued US pressure.

Just did a quick internet search as the 'my friend told me' post can fall apart easily

www.ft.com...

The Chinese got to sample and review it but apparently the Pakistani government have it.

edit on 27-2-2012 by SunWuKong because: (no reason given)

Nah, that's a whole different story.

I don't trust this story in the least. The whole OBL raid was a total propaganda fest that was open wider to criticism than the legs of an old Surrey whore. The "stealth helicopter" aspect seemed just as suspicious, in my opinion.

And it's not like the Chinese couldn't figure out how to make one of those anyways. If it really was real, then it was just a Blackhawk retrofitted with some Commanche-style aesthetics.

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi


That's what happens when you trust the words of a friend ... especially when he is half cut most of the time!

You're right, the raid was most definitely odd, my conspiratorial nature dismissed it immediately - especially with sea burials and all that nonsense.

I am sure he was most likely dead already, however, from speaking with my Pakistani friends (who found the video quite laughable) they said that if someone wants to hire out in Pakistan then you just go live in the Jammu Jammu mountains.

Apparently you will find a whole host of nationalities hiding out there and as one great leader once said:
"you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy" - its a complete police and military no go area and if you need any criminal work done you chuck one of those guys the money and they will get it sorted for you!

Anyway, getting slightly off topic - back to those Chinese grrrr!

reply to post by SunWuKong


There's a few places like that. I heard that Montenegro is a fairly happenin' place

Originally posted by daaskapital

Originally posted by lordnightstalker

Originally posted by daaskapital
reply to post by IsraeliGuy

 

The USA has lost every war since WW2, and wven still, they didn;t to much in the 2 big wars.

They lost Kore, Vietnam, Iraq, and are about to lose Afghanistan. Not to mention some of the little conflicts.

The USA isn't what everyone makes it out to be.

We never lost anything, there hasn't been a "real war" since WW2, not in the sense of having an objective of defeating and occupying your enemy

We have reached satisfactory objectives in all of those wars, we have a "beach head" on the Asian mainland in regards to south korea, we prevented communists from taking Vietnam, we removed Saddam Hussein we also kept a small oil state as a vassal

Our goal wasn't to destroy those place, we got what we wanted

In all reality we could have easily destroyed everyone of those Nations, we defeated the Iraqi military 2x, we Could have killed the people kept the oil, that wasn't our actual goal, we could have bombed the dams in Vietnam and massacred them

In the end what is one of the biggest things we want?

To sell a lot of military hardware all around the world, same as Russia

We have in EVERY actual Military battle simply abused and punished and humiliated every ARMY we have fought, we cream them, Iraqi deaths 100's of thousands all hardware devastated, every land battle in Nom we utterly devastated our opponents

Even in Korea we couldn't be pushed off of Russia and China's own continent, you don't see Chinese forces in Tiajuana with a highly militarized zone do you?

And that was with Russia backing them up and 700,000 Chinese troops, when we broke the 38th the numbers were 15-1 against us and we won 15-1

look at these losses

USA

36,940 dead
92,134 wounded

CHINA

152,000 dead
383,500 wounded

5 to 1 Kill ratio USA

We won battles fighting 15-1, come on man, we never have lost squat

Vietnam

4,000,000 civilian dead;[14]
1,176,000 military dead or missing; 600,000+ wounded

USA

58,220 dead; 303,635 wounded

17-1 kill ratio

Iraq 223,000

USA 4,805

45 -1 Kill ratio

Afghan 41,000 Usa 2,799
14-1 kill ratio

In no case has an enemy ever managed to even attack us on our soil

Really we lost what?

You don't call Vietnam a real war?

Korea ended in a stalemate, Vietnam is a Communist country, therefore, the USA lost, It took the USA two wars to remove Saddam, and still, Iraq is in turmoil.

You are comparing technology from the USA to Iraq and Vietnam

We were fighting in Vietnam against farmers ffs and we lost. We are fighting against farmers in Afghanistan and we are losing

Next time try not to "cream" your pants over your military 'successes.'

Your wrong and you refuse to read

A Stalemate? How is that not a victory? We kept South Korea intact we have a beach head as I said alongside China, The Peninsula isn't under the control of the Communists

what do you suppose we should have done, pressed on and nuked China and Russia?

Vietnam? literally a permanent vassal of the Un, 100 KFC's in Hanoi, I talked about objectives, in the end Vietnam right now is no more or less than another colony, our goal wasn't to destroy them, we left the battlefield but won the cultural war long term

Iraq... still in turmoil? aside from public opinion you actually act like we give a damn

Life isn't literal, we don't go to these wars to occupy, WW2 showed us that folly, we go in to manipulate the circumstances to our best advantage maintain leverage over things we want, open up markets, establish bases in remote places , weaken those who could become enemies, surround greater enemies, prevent nations from aligning with nations that could be enemies and show off our toys to SELL SELL SELL

We won everyone of those wars or achieved a viable level of success at the above goals

In Battle, our numbers as above ranged from 5-1 to 45 -1

No one managed to attack us, not once on our soil

That's not just a win that's a slaughter, when you go to say Vietnam, bomb the crap out of them, establish your culture to a good degree and then just leave and there is a cease fire and you never get attacked back and 20 years later they are doing business with you, member of the IMF, 100 KFC in Hanoi You TOTALLY WON

It's not the 17th century, it's not about taking the territory in a physical manner, it's about modern money and power.

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi


Agree with everything you said in part one, with one minor exception, I see no relevance in throwing up the past, it's not that Americans don't see it, it just doesn't exist for most of us as anything beyond history, it can be taken as uncultured from a philosophical pov but our willingness to forget is a good thing, I for example as a Jew happen to also very much like Germans, Germany is a favorite destination, why? because today's Germans of my age bracket are cool, good music lots of fun and there are more "nazis" where I live in America than Germany. Every nations youth starts fresh except for cultures that "make it personal for aeons, whatever Americans are, we aren't like that...

But that is an aside, otherwise you are 100% correct

The second part, I disagree with, without taking any stance on right or wrong, in war time the Military has no budget in any meaningful way if it can be built and the supplies supplied it will be done and at the lowest level Bio weapons are cheap and eat through million man armies like flies eat poo

On the highest level, the Military didn't take over the shuttle program to "launch satellites" Tungsten rods aren't that expensive, neither are em pulses we have 16000 plus warheads doing nothing in storage, I sincerely doubt in any "true" war effor cost would matter, 800 Billion Barels of shale and 2 Billion Barrels of Canadian crude and Nuclear energy (none of which is competitive price wise on a global market) but in war time? America will never run out of fuel

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi


Again agreed on the first part I wasn't trying to be too elaborate

part 2 again I disagree, it has been a very short road from there to here for us, while I agree with everything your saying in regards to China, and YES I am using my imagination because nothing is stable, stability is an illusion, things change over night and the more power you wield the faster it is to change.

China in my eyes has all the potential in the world to go through this process and very quickly at that, as a populace they have suffered innumerable indignities, been underrated by the world, believe they deserve more, are over crowded, sorely lacking certain resource were butchered by the Japanese colonized by the English

Are the tools there for the wrong man to work with to quickly galvanize all that into an offensive minded population and govt? Oh Yeah

Your right about one thing it would take a threat Perceived... or otherwise and perception is a funny thing

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi


Your very smart and I lightly addressed the energy issue earlier

Let me say this: This is all correct what you wrote in regards to energy

And that's probably why videos of Chinese soldiers marching annoyed me in the first place

Your likely correct in that we are just being set up for the Orwellian situation and a true WW3 will not actually go down

But IF it did?

In 1986 China implemented Program 863, a post Nuclear super weapons program, The USA and Russia were at it 35 years earlier at least.


This war, especially ground zero of it being the center of the worlds oil production will not be maintainable (this theoretical war i should say) conventional means of warfare would last at best a few months once the hormuz was irrevocably cut off and both sides wells in the region were burning, the first thing we do and they do if it gets serious is start hitting each others pipelines so this doesn't last long

what this war would be fought with is speculation on out parts which is why I mentioned rods from God, weather modification, nano scale machines, bio weapons etc, etc

It just seemed stupid, stupid, stupid to even suggest that Chinese army would ever make it over here, good luck with that, all the oil burning and subs at sea sinking everything including each other and gas evaporating quickly

God only knows what that fight will actually be fought with, it wont be 300 million Chinese guys coming over by boat that we can be sure of

Now 300 guys releasing impossible to kill mosquitoes that spread ebola... maybe

reply to post by lordnightstalker


No offense, but your assumptions about unconventional weapon systems are wrong.

It doesn't matter what any country has as an ace in the hole- they aren't going to overtly use any weapon of mass destruction unless provoked to do so. This is the whole point of MAD, why one superpower doesn't push another.

Nukes would only be used in defense. If the US carries out a beach-head invasion on Russia, you can bet that the Russians will hit invading forces with tactical nukes. The same would be true for an invasion on the US, or China. Chemical weapons are more likely to be used in retaliation for a spiteful attack, and would more than likely be released by covert agents in the target country. The overall damage wouldn't be nearly as bad as the psychological shock.

Biological weapons? Bio-weapons are a real end-game scenerio. You don't unleash a weapon that can self-produce and kill any human without realizing that you're also exposing your own people to it.

Rods from God? Again, another weapon that when used, will draw a new line in how far the battle will go. In using such a weapon, space just became a battleground and you should fully expect rival space-to-ground weapon systems, as well as ASAT weaponry, to be used against you. Considering how much the US relies on satellites to conduct global warfare, losing their sats will prove to be costly in overall strategy.

In a WW3 scenerio, the best weapons for any country would be conscious soldiers who know what they are fighting for and are willing to carry out orders and furfill their duty, no matter the cost. This ranges from infantry on the front lines to commanders with the keys to the final countdown.

Originally posted by Deus Ex Machina 42
Do not be afraid my young friends...
I have been many years into the future..
China does not and never will up until the point
I have foreseen go to war...
They are simply a defensive military...
A friendly and generous people the Chinese are
And even once, soon to come they will
Come to our aid at great lost to themselves.

So tell me my friend, What does your crystal ball tell you about who the Chinese will come here to help us against? Who is our foe of the future? Because I gotta tell yuh that anyone other than China attempting to invade The USA would not even stand a chance of successfully landing, let alone occupying. I gotta hear this one.............~SheopleNation

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

And by all means, find me some actual evidence about your claim of an American "free electron laser" deployed in my country. Because it sounds like BS to me.

The FEL is secret and you know that. It has been talked about and for a Line of Sight defence of North America VIA...the Free Electron Laser....with an ability to Lase anything coming in the U.S. or Canadian Airspace from a Western or Eastern direction....I would guess that Baffin Island or Newfoundland would be apt sites.

You speak as if the United States and Canada are seperate.....from a Military point of view....they are not. The two contries have the most integrated Military systems on Earth...as well as the most Deadly. When the old Soviet Union and even to this day...Russia...provide their yearly Mlitary threat Assessment....they ALWAYS consider the U.S. and Canada as The NORTH AMERICAN THREAT ASSESSMENT. The two countries are NEVER SEPERATED! And there is good reason for this...almost every Canadian or American has a elative of one county or the other in their family....plus...with the exception of a few pains in the asses in Quebec....the two countries share alot in common. EH? LOL! Split Infinity

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

Sorry it took me a while to reply to this one but I must have missed it.

THE ONLY REASON THE U.S. IS STILL USING OIL....is geedy corps.

The United States has several highly advanced and WORKING prototypes of several forms of Energy Creation.

1. Low Temp. Fusion.
2. Advanced Solar Cells.
3. A new form of Fission Reactor that is Highly Dependent, Safe and Impurvious to terrorist attack. It produces a Radioactive Byproduct that is managable.
4. A few GADJETS that we are testing that we got from a few out of town associates.
5. Einstien-Bose Condensate Energy Generation.......etc.....if we can get them out of the bag...we will not have an energy crisis. Split Infinity

Originally posted by SplitInfinity

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
reply to post by SplitInfinity

 

And by all means, find me some actual evidence about your claim of an American "free electron laser" deployed in my country. Because it sounds like BS to me.

The FEL is secret and you know that. It has been talked about and for a Line of Sight defence of North America VIA...the Free Electron Laser....with an ability to Lase anything coming in the U.S. or Canadian Airspace from a Western or Eastern direction....I would guess that Baffin Island or Newfoundland would be apt sites.

You speak as if the United States and Canada are seperate.....from a Military point of view....they are not. The two contries have the most integrated Military systems on Earth...as well as the most Deadly. When the old Soviet Union and even to this day...Russia...provide their yearly Mlitary threat Assessment....they ALWAYS consider the U.S. and Canada as The NORTH AMERICAN THREAT ASSESSMENT. The two countries are NEVER SEPERATED! And there is good reason for this...almost every Canadian or American has a elative of one county or the other in their family....plus...with the exception of a few pains in the asses in Quebec....the two countries share alot in common. EH? LOL! Split Infinity

Why are you talking to me like I don't know anything about Canada? It is my homeland. I've never been out of its borders. I spend my days studying politics and geostrategy for the sake of my nation.

This is why I asked for actual proof to your claims, because simply saying "it is secret" just isn't credible for some reason. I know for a fact that Canada has pushed away American attempts to deploy such weapons on our soil. We told the US to stick it when they expected us to deploy their ABM shield in our north. We do maintain radar stations under NORAD, as well as interceptors from NORAD command (meaning American too), but we do not have American weapons here.

And no, Canada is not a part of the US. We are linked deeply through various ties, but it is far from official or cultural. Canadian Forces do fall under some NORCOM command (because NORCOM is in charge of NORAD, which means NORAD is actually controlled by the Pentagon), but the Canadian Forces most certainly do not belong to them.

Sorry it took me a while to reply to this one but I must have missed it.

THE ONLY REASON THE U.S. IS STILL USING OIL....is geedy corps.

The United States has several highly advanced and WORKING prototypes of several forms of Energy Creation.

1. Low Temp. Fusion.
2. Advanced Solar Cells.
3. A new form of Fission Reactor that is Highly Dependent, Safe and Impurvious to terrorist attack. It produces a Radioactive Byproduct that is managable.
4. A few GADJETS that we are testing that we got from a few out of town associates.
5. Einstien-Bose Condensate Energy Generation.......etc.....if we can get them out of the bag...we will not have an energy crisis. Split Infinity

So? Do you have any idea of the cost of developing a cost-effective production model of a next generation weapon, let alone developing an alternative fuel source for it? There is a reason why the US is in unrecoverable debt while needing to print money out of thin air just to remain bouyant.

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

Well you have answered a question for me that I kind of knew....you have statd that you don't leave Canada...and not getting around to see what else is going on does not give you enough of a real life picture or experience to get a true understanding of what really goes on in the world. Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity

Also...no matter what you may have been told by your politicians....the U.S. and Canada have a VERY close Military connectivity at a level that most people do not comprehend. It has been this way for a long time.
Split Infinity

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

As for the U.S. dept....the U.S. has been busy all these years keeping most of the world and it's waterways safe. It is time that we spent some attention on ourselves. Split Infinity

I love the women's uniforms at around 3:47 in the first video. Bright pink... perfect for blending in... For some reason, operation Human Shield from South Park came to mind. Like if they were to go to war, they'd just send in the women in neon pink to draw fire, lol.

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

 

Well you have answered a question for me that I kind of knew....you have statd that you don't leave Canada...and not getting around to see what else is going on does not give you enough of a real life picture or experience to get a true understanding of what really goes on in the world. Split Infinity

I don't get around because, for one, I can barely even pay my own rent let alone travel; secondly, I'm stuck in university studying geopolitics, which also happens to teach me so much more about the world than what the average person could possibly comprehend. I'll probably end up travelling after I get my education, because then I will probably be paid to do it.

And really, have you looked at my country before? Second largest in the world, mostly uninhabited natural space. That is what I like. I am easily overwhelmed by entering a real city like Vancouver just because it is a giant, cement urban zone compacted with people- I really don't have much interest in exploring any other country where the urbanization rate makes my country look like a hick's paradise.

I'm fine where I am.

Also...no matter what you may have been told by your politicians....the U.S. and Canada have a VERY close Military connectivity at a level that most people do not comprehend. It has been this way for a long time.
Split Infinity

Let me explain this to you: I undertake in geopolitical training. When I say listening to politicians, I don't mean politicians on TV; I mean in lectures or face to face. I've talked to provincial and federal leaders before, in other words, the politicians who matter on a national level. They wouldn't bother visiting my university if we didn't produce quality politically-minded people- and in fact, I've had some of these higher status politicians tell me that I should join their campaign teams because they could use people with a capacity to think on a strategic and tactical level. But personally, I would rather lead than follow these guys.

As for the U.S. dept....the U.S. has been busy all these years keeping most of the world and it's waterways safe. It is time that we spent some attention on ourselves. Split Infinity

That is not true. The US only invests in foreign infrastructure if they get something out of it; specifically developing infrastructure to develop and extract resources (the whole point of modernistic development).

And really, you want to talk about how the US has improved lives abroad? Hilarious notion, considering how many millions that have died, and the millions more afflicted by national torture and pestilence due to American actions.

You want examples? Look up what happened in Iraq after the Gulf War. During this war, the US and UK actually bombed water treatment plants in Iraq (not developed them like you claim) and then imposed sanctions after the war specifically to deny Iraq from importing the necessary parts to repair these facilities. The quality of life in Iraq fell big time and it is thought that over 100,000 children died as a result of inadequate facilities, a completely unnecessary casualty number deliberately caused by your country in order to try to "contain" Iraq through "diplomacy".

And think for a second about depleted uranium. It is nuclear waste crafted into munitions and dropped on target countries. When it detonates, the DU turns into a fine dust that covers everything in the region through wind currents. Iraq alone has become heavily irradiated, cancer rates have boomed, infant mortality is well beyond average figures- and even American soldiers suffer from the effects of DU when they go home at the end of the fight. And you speak of how the US has worked towards improving the quality of life around the world?

Hell, Americans even use depleted uranium as armour on their tanks. Nuclear waste as armour. Do you see your politicians climbing into Abrams, or just the lower-class soldiers?

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

Dimitri...you are young...and that is a GOOD thing! But here is one of lifes lessons that you will find out in short order after you graduate. THOSE WHO ARE EXPERTS IN THEIR FIELD AND HAVE REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE THAT HAS BEEN ACTIONABLE IN THAT FIELD....DO IT...DO IT WELL....AND KEEP ON DOING IT!

THOSE WHO HAVE THE BARE MINIMUM OF KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERTISE OF A PARTICULAR FIELD OD KNOWLEDGE....ARE NOT CONSIDERED....ACTIONABLE ASSETS....CANNOT GET A JOB WORKING IN THEIR FIELD...THUS...THEY TEACH IT!

I learned from a very young age that most of my teachers and Professors....Hated the fact that they were teaching rather than DOING. This unfortunately brings a bitterness to the STUDENT and finding a Teacher that does both...that is TEACH and DO WORK in their field of expertise...is the Teacher or Professor you should PAY ATTENTION TO! This person actually knows what is going on and you can tell as they will not hang in the same circles as other acadamia...as they have WORK TO DO!

I like the fact that you are not so easy to accept something just becuse you heard it or read it....continue to do this with your University or College Professors. I also like the fact that you challenge my statements...but I would be more impressed...not that you care if I am impressed or not....to use some basic logic and intuitive leaps of why A is being added to B to get C?

I drop little hints all the time...I cannot be spanked because I choose to talk about something that is right there in the media for all to see....talking about Canada as being part of how Russia, China the Old Soviet Union prepare their Military Threat Assesments instead of just talking about the United States...is one of those hints.

Now if Canada is this Innocuous Land of Moose and Deer and Good Fishing....and the U.S. has torn down those Big Old Style OVER THE HORIZON RADAR systems in favor of ? See what I mean? Just use a little logic. The U.S. and Canada have shared Military Systems all the way up to and including Nuclear Missles. Do you think that Canada would have ANY objection to the installation of the Free Electron Laser which by it's design and nature would prevent and protect not only the U.S. but Canada as well as the FEL can not only destroy the actual ICBM WARHEADS in space as the incoming missle will temp. go into orbit for a small time....but can also vaporize Cruise Missle Warheads Launched from Planes and coming in low over Canadian territory.

It is not your Professors fault that they do not know how deep the Rabbit Hole Runs between the two countries...it is just that they were never good enough to be placed on the SPLUNKING TEAM! LOL!
Split Infinity