Look if you doubt China's might

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
I will give you ONE MAJOR EXAMPLE of why CHINA will not attempt to confront the UNITED STATES EVER!

The Chinese have close to a 2 Billion person population....the U.S. a bit over 300 Million. Yet the vast majority of Chinese live in poverty. As experimental Capitalism begins to grow a Chinese Middle Class...China finds itself with Chinese Banks filled with Money.

WHERE DOES CHINA INVEST IT'S MONEY? WHAT IS CHINAS CONCEPT OF THE BEST AND SAFEST PLACE WITH THE MOST LIKELY PROFITABLE RETURN ON IT'S MASSIVE INVESTMENT?

Answer.......THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!

A country that invests as much money as China has will NEVER DO ANYTHING to risk that investment....ie....a Military attempt to reunify China with Taiwan....allowing North Korea to roam off the LEASH....any direct challenge to U.S. MIlitary would be shere idiocy since this would force the U.S. to put in place more stringent export rules for Chinese imports.

The U.S. has a plan...it will change China from the inside....it will help create a Chinese Middle Class that will desire more Freedoms......an ACCOUNTING OF PUBLIC FUNDS THAT THE CHINESE COMMUNIST ELITE SPEND ON THEMSELVES AT THEIR WHIM! Split Infinity

You do realize that this investment into foreign countries is actually a form of imperialism, right?

When China builds American infrastructure and buys American companies... that's not really to America's benefit, aside from the fact that the US is too broke to improve itself (hence why it opens up such sectors to foreign corporations).

The fact that China has to funds to even buy up American assets shows how powerful it really is beyond military means (it's not like military power is all that prominant these days anyways). The US invests in China too, by using proxy corporations to set up sweatshops to build cheap products for the American market. I wonder how quickly the Chinese government would take to assimilate this proxy corporate infrastructure in a moment of crisis (the Chinese government, afterall, currently deploys PLA sections to "guard" these establishments).

Originally posted by borntowatch
The Chinese will happily send millions off to die and millions of indoctrinated Chinese will happily die for the country they are proud of.

I understand what you're suggesting, because our leaders do it to the sheople here.

The US are sick of wars, the Chinese will soon NEED war to settle a dissension of the people under communism.

I agree, they could possibly do that. Nationalism (Patriotism) always ignites the masses. (Unless it's over-played and abused like the masters of puppets have done to us Americans). Most of us, other than the brainwashed and those who do not care, are at the end of our ropes. Course, the media will never report that. Not sure if it matters cause they would just bring back The Draft.

The only way to stop another Tianaman square turning in to an open rebellion against communism is a foreign war. The Chinese economy need to operate at a growth of @ 8% , if it drops lower than that the people will become agitated and disassociated from the politics.

A civil war in China maybe? Course, That would only play into the Western powers hands.

The US needed WW1 and WW2 to drag themselves out of a depression, NOW so does China.
If any US persons believe that the Chinese are lesser people than their own people then history has taught you nothing. That makes you delusional.

I can see that maybe happening. China's political history is brutal. Millions butchered. So why not another revolution or civil war? I am not sure.

China also have 20 million trained reserves and weapons to arm them with.
Thats 10 Chinese to one US soldier.

The USA can take on 20 Chinese to 1 U.S Soldier. How about that? It's called technology, not to mention skills and strength. I know it sounds "arrogant" but it's the truth. I personally know Men who could kill 5 unarmed Chinese soldiers with their bare hands. When you go up against a trained killer who weighs 225 pounds and can actually break limbs, not to mention what he can do with a knife, then you might understand why. Put firearms into his hands, and the number jumps up to 15 to 20. Laugh all you like. Luckily, Fighter Jets will take care of most of it.

My point is, just dont get to arrogant. Arrogance has lost many wars.

I understand that as well. Know this though. If we ever have to Defend our Country here at home we will completely dominate the enemy and make sure by our actions that they never think of stepping onto our soil again. The Military might even follow certain rules, but if any of those red bastards try to invade, The citizens alone will butcher them so brutally that it will make the rape of Nanking (which I am 100% against, I agree with China about prosecuting Japanese for that) look like a circus side show.

So come on in and try to invade america, there will be nothing but gutted and stuffed foreign bodies. That includes anyone wearing a blue helmet. We will doctor them up even more special than any soldier who is actually putting his life on the line for his own Country, and not some Globalist Cabal's agenda. ~SheopleNation

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

The same reactionary fearful statements were made when Japan invested in the U.S. in all sorts of sectors in the 80's...nothing happened but job creation.
What do you think would happen if China decieded to go to WAR with the U.S.? It's not like the buildings they buy are going to go with them. Plus we would immediatly stop all imports from China and stop payments on Chinese loans.
What do you think THAT would do to their economy? Split Infinity

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
66...WHO exactly is China going to occupy? They have no way of power projection or possibility of shipping out a large invasion force without the USN Blowing them out of the water. Are you thinking they wll attack Russia...the Russians will NUKE them before that happens! WHO else? India? The U.S. would also intervene.
China willnot invade anyone. Split Infinity

SI, I agree with most of what you have to say. I am just suprised that Red China has not made a move on Taiwan while The USA has been so occupied in the Middle East. I mean if I were Chinese, I would want that vast economic prize and I would take it back. Glad they have not though cause I don't want to see World War 3. ~SheopleNation

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
The same reactionary fearful statements were made when Japan invested in the U.S. in all sorts of sectors in the 80's...nothing happened but job creation.
What do you think would happen if China decieded to go to WAR with the U.S.? It's not like the buildings they buy are going to go with them. Plus we would immediatly stop all imports from China and stop payments on Chinese loans.

What do you think THAT would do to their economy? Split Infinity

Until a move was made from either Nation, you're both correct. She makes alot of good points, As have you.

This is a great discussion though my friends. ~SheopleNation

In times of war things change fast. Look at WW1 with the tanks. No one should talk down about China's military capabilities.

reply to post by LoneCloudHopper


Yeah. I believe that if anyone attempted to invade China without any use of Nuclear weapons, or the support of atleast half of it's population, It would be atleast a 15 to 20 year War that very likely would end up being a failure depending on how many politicians were purchased by the International Banksters.

Even more so, how many McDonalds, starbucks, dope and internet porn ect was flooded into the Nation during those 1 to 2 decades of occupation. ~SheopleNation

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

 

The same reactionary fearful statements were made when Japan invested in the U.S. in all sorts of sectors in the 80's...nothing happened but job creation.
What do you think would happen if China decieded to go to WAR with the U.S.? It's not like the buildings they buy are going to go with them. Plus we would immediatly stop all imports from China and stop payments on Chinese loans.
What do you think THAT would do to their economy? Split Infinity

What makes you think leaders give a damn about economy during a war? The only thought they put into it, is what their economy will look like after the war, and balance some strategic options during the war that could result in economic superiority in the future.

"Reactionary fearful statements"? Were you referring to my post? If so, then I was simply employing this thing called "common sense". It is common sense to assume that if one nation's financial sector owns assets in another country, then they own a part of that country. If a nation controls all industrial assets in another country, then they basically control the country (an extreme example).

Basically, finance capitalism is peace-time imperialism. This is imperialism where corporate sectors take over foreign assets for the state- where as in war, the state takes over assets for the corporate sector.

It's not "fearful" or "reactionary" to realize this. It is realist. It also happens to be Leninist, so I wouldn't expect commie-haters to even touch this concept from fear of dogma alone.

As for your comment about Japan? Japan has been a US protectorate since WWII. It also happens to be a world-leading economy. They too, are imperialist with their outgoing ambitions to acquire assets (but this cannot be avoided, considering how "big" Japan is for its own geographical size). Such neo-liberal actions between two allied countries creates interdependence between them. Such ties between the Japan and the US mean that Japan will continue to play ball with the US, instead of possibly gravitating towards China.

Originally posted by SheopleNation
reply to post by LoneCloudHopper

 

Yeah. I believe that if anyone attempted to invade China without any use of Nuclear weapons, or the support of atleast half of it's population, It would be atleast a 15 to 20 year War that very likely would end up being a failure depending on how many politicians were purchased by the International Banksters.

Even more so, how many McDonalds, starbucks, dope and internet porn ect was flooded into the Nation during those 1 to 2 decades of occupation. ~SheopleNation

As I have said before...the U.S. plan with China is to help it create a Middle Class that is educated and longs for Freedom. This has been ongoing as we import the majority of Chinese goods....and we could clamp down on Chinas Communist Parties refusal to allow their Money to properly FLOAT and let it determine it's own worth rather than the way the Communist regime prevents this. China will be won over things like anger by their own educated and at work population that feels that they are being treated like children with no vote and no say in things as small as a Free Internet without filters. They will change from within.

The U.S. has no intention of invading China....but at the same time we will contain China and you are right...you do not hear much about taking over Taiwan anymore as well as Chinese help that has ben obvious in keeping North Korea in line. Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


The US plans to enforce change in China by encouraging Chinese middle class to go after freedom?

I take it that you don't realize that the Chinese middle class already have significant freedom in that country. They already live a fairly "western" lifestyle and are already directing cultural change in urban China.

They do not have ambitions to topple their government, because the Chinese government allows this change to happen. The current Chinese government wants a larger middle class so it can produce more specialized, professional citizens to boost the quality of its own population while sending them abroad to expand influence and capitol.

Even the peasants do not seem to wish for regime change. Most rural Chinese either stick with their lifestyle for traditional reasons, or assimilate into urban life (usually by joining some corporate workshop, a lot of which happen to be US-owned but still present better opportunies for modernizing than simple peasant life).

I honestly fail to understand your logic here. The Chinese are not interested in toppling their government, nor are they interested in drastic change. The government already has its own agenda and works in its own way to adapt China to the path that the world is on. Any drastic change to this, including "democracy" (which, by the way, is impossible for such a large population in such a centralized system), would probably set China back decades, if not crush it.

What do you think China's rivals would do if the Chinese government was reformed to more "acceptable" western standards? Just sit and watch? No. They would jump in and take over whatever assets that they possibly could to both deliminate the chance of China ever becoming as powerful again, aswell as to use those assets to assert their own power. Why do you think national assets of the USSR were sold at wholesail prices when it collapsed? It wasn't for the sake of the Russian people, that's for damn sure.

Do not be afraid my young friends...
I have been many years into the future..
China does not and never will up until the point
I have foreseen go to war...
They are simply a defensive military...
A friendly and generous people the Chinese are
And even once, soon to come they will
Come to our aid at great lost to themselves.

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

There is a major shift in how the United States spend money on defense. The U.S. will continue to be a Global Military Force....and the size and power of U.S. Carrier Groups along with accompanying ships and ESPECIALLY SUBS....as the U.S. does NOT talk about their Sub force...ever....mainly because there are USN. Underwater craft in opperation that are Highly Secret and do not surface....until they reach an U.S. Military Equivelent of Area 51 in the Carribeen.

Some of these craft are using an advanced form of propultion first proposed and developed by T.Townsend Brown. As well...the U.S. is shifting away from Human Occupied Military Craft and there are directives anyone here can look up on how all services must meet quotas of anywhere from 20 to 60% by the end of this decade where these percentages are ROBOTIC CRAFT.

Also...the U.S. is moving and has already achieved the breakthroughs in Direct Energy Weapons such as the Free Electron Laser which will be in every Carrier and Aegis Cruiser as well as building more on land...two exist currently one in Alaska...one in Canada....the new ones will be Nuclear as well as MOBILE. The days of vast conventional forces and super heavy tanks are oming to an end and Solid State Lasers will replace Heavy Munitions as well as the FEL and redesigned SM-3 being the way to end MAD....Mutualy Assured Destruction.

Nuclear Weapons are not practicle for use in war as if enough are used...it will irradiate you and the enemy....so many new CLEAN Directed Energy Weapons as well as Sonic and other advanced weapons will soon be introduced. This will bring the U.S. Military Budget down in cost...and although Carrier Groups will still exist...having an integrated FEL system will render them IMPURVIOUS to attack as the FEL will be used in the Air, Space, Land and Underwater. The Russians...always being good at spy craft...KNOW ABOUT THIS....the Chinese...were purposely INFORMED.

There is also a program that I am not fully informed on but it involves ANTIMATTER....not for a bomb use....but for another use. You can expound on China all you want....and it is true the U.S. must turn it's attention back inwards to address economic needs...but if there is ONE THING that Americans are good at....it's GLOBAL PLANNING. We have paid for years to keep the peace...now it's time for us. Split Infinity

Originally posted by m0rphine
I was looking for military might but all I saw were 5'5" 120lb grown men being retarded (the grenade.)

China isn't a freaking threat. Their 'special forces' training video looks like a joke. Try looking up some of ours. We have the best trained military in the world. Pretty marching is not going to stop a bullet. Their equipment is still cold war era. Good luck with that....

edit on 23-2-2012 by m0rphine because: (no reason given)

The west is seeing what the Chinese want the west to see, its like poker, you don't show your hand, do you? Okay, so its all a bluff, show us your cards then.

Originally posted by Recollector
Its a DEFENSIVE army, with near ZERO posibilities to project military power more than 200 km away from their borders.

Sure, they have MILLIONS of troops...and its impossible to win a war where China is on defense.

What china CANNOT DO (at least for many years from now on) is to DEFEND MILITARILY anything else EXCEPT North Korea.

I wouldn't be so sure. The Chinese have been in bed with the Russians for a long time, have more dollars than the US and have been operating in virtual secret since the Cultural Revolution.

I wouldn't be surprised if they have just as much super secret toys as anyone else. From my experiences living in China the main problem is that the Chinese are all very patriotic, extremely proud of China and I would defend that to the death. An army willing to die is a powerful force.

But the one thing they don't have is the wealth of experience that the worlds best fighting forces like the SAS and SBS have ... but they could probably pull together an almighty ground force.

To be honest though, they are not stupid and know how to play the game in getting the upper hand in the world. They are slowly rebuilding Africa's infrastructure which in effect is the beginnings of their colonial times. It will be interesting to see how the next years pan out with America on the decline, Europe on the decline and China on the up ... thankfully I can speak Chinese

reply to post by shifterste

China has no need for that logistic capability as it does not plan to invade anyone. Besides the march past was to celebrate China's national day. A military parade that is if you have one in your country. China has a long history of warfare so much so they could write the book "Art of War ". They are tired of war but pursue the need to protect the country. This because they were treated like # when they got conquered and that would not happen again. You know what the Japanese called them..."sick men of Asia" because of the opium trade back in the 1900s.

reply to post by SunWuKong

Chinas ecomomy depends on the U.S. purchase of it's goods. All the U.S. has to do is stop buying or stop making payments for borrowed money and China's ecomomy will Freefall.

As far as exotic War toys....the U.S. is decades to close to a full century ahead in some areas.....but war with China is not something that will happen. Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


My last post to you, about China, had nothing whatsoever to do with military hardware or strategy.

So why is your reply nothing but some ramble about how much more advanced US military hardware and strategy is over China?

Here's some interesting information that will probably blow your mind, if you are capable of understanding it:

Michael T. Klare, Rising Powers Shrinking Planet (2008), Holt Paperbacks: New York, New York:

"But the wheels of industry are not the only ones to slow without an abundant supply of energy; military forces are equally dependent on a copious infusion of critical fuels. For major powers like the United States that rely on airpower and mechanized ground forces to prevail in conflict, the need for petroleum products multiplies with each new advance in weapons technology. During World War II, the American military consumed one gallon of petroleum per soldier per day; during the first Gulf War of 1990-91, the rate rose to four gallons per soldier per day; in the Bush administration's wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, it leapt to sixteen gallons per soldier per day. Because the Pentagon is sure to increase its reliance on high-tech weaponry, and because other major powers, including China, Japan, Russia, and India, seek to emulate it in this regard, the already voracious military component of global energy demand can only grow."
-- page 11.

"...Not only will future oil shortages and the resulting high prices place a heavier burden on the Pentagon budget, but the day may come when US military will be unable "to obtain the supply of oil products necessary for maintaining our military preponderance." That these concerns are shared by officials within the military hierarchy was confirmed by a 2007 study commissioned by the Defense Department on its future energy requirements. Noting that the armed forces' reliance on energy-intensive, high-tech weaponry is likely to collide with the reality of ever-deminishing worldwide oil supplies, the study warned that the current Pentagon strategy of global military engagement "may be unsustainable in the long-term.""
-- page 27.

Barry Sanders, The Green Zone: The Environmental Costs of Militarism, AK Press:

"These armored vehicles, planes, and luxury planes [of the US military] consume close to two million reported gallons of oil every day."
- page 49.

"During battle, over ideal terrain, the Abrams can go through roughly 7 barrels, or 252 gallons-usually of JP-8 jet fuel- each and every hour. ... It takes nearly 500,000 gallons a day to supply an armored division of 348 tanks. The Army tries to keep its entire inventory of Abrams tanks up and running in Iraq- all 1,838 of them.
...
Just 1 pair of Apache battalions in a single night's raid will consume about 60,000 gallons of jet fuel."
- page 58.

"With its afterburners kicked in, for example, "the F-15 torches fuel at the astounding rate off 4 gallons per second- 14,400 gallons per hour."
- page 61.

I've just provided examples of why your examples are nothing but detriments to the overall strategy of the American Empire.

There is a saying that I enjoy using very much: "a fool talks tactics; a professional discusses logistics".

All of your fancy-pants, high-end laser weaponry sounds nice and all, but the simple fact is that the entire country of the US is growing, requires more and more oil (and other fuels) to maintain its growth, all at a time when such resource production has surpassed the "easy" extraction part on its curve, meaning that such resources will be exponentially harder to acquire from now on.

So it makes absolutely no sense to develop weapons and strategies that require more and more fuel, when the fuel is becoming harder and harder to acquire. This is especially true for the US, which is a fuel-deficit country (meaning that they have to import oil to survive).

The whole American military industrial complex looks menacing from the outside, but its vast expansionism is its very weakness. The corporations that build its weapons lobby for more war to require the purchase of such weapons that require more and more fuel to operate. Fuel production is, or is going to soon peak, and fuel prices will skyrocket.

And the US has to buy oil from oil-producing nations. Who are the top oil producing nations? 1-5:
- Saudi Arabia
- Russia
- USA (consumes at least twice as much as it produces)
- Iran
- China

Why do you think the US invaded Iraq and replaced its leadership? Why do you think the US is virtually planning to invade Iran? It's not for "liberation"- it is to secure resources that are necessary to maintain the US as a global empire. But the facts point that this entire endeavor will ultimately fail due to the gluttonous nature of fuel consumption.

reply to post by SplitInfinity


China's fingers are in a lot of pies - I don't think just that if just the US pulled out it would cripple the Chinese economy. But, when you have an army of super cheap labor no one is going to walk away from there soon!

We can speculate about how more advanced the US are than the states and obviously we will never know. My point is just that China has been shielded from the west for a very long time, it has the money to research and the physical geography for many a secret testing base or sub-terranean testing base, they also have a work force the likes of which were last seen by the Pharoahs!

If it did all hit the fan, which I dont thin it will, then I just reckon the Chinese military will have a lot of crazy stuff they can pull out of the bag - it may be similar to ours (I heard about the stealth chopper they captured) or it may have gone in a totally different direction!

It reminds me of the story when when foreign powers arrived to China and gave the emperor one of their finest telescopes (a scientific marvel at the time). the emperor was pretty disinterested as it was nowhere near the quality of their telescopes that they had had for some time!

reply to post by SplitInfinity


And by all means, find me some actual evidence about your claim of an American "free electron laser" deployed in my country. Because it sounds like BS to me.

There is a saying that I enjoy using very much: "a fool talks tactics; a professional discusses logistics".

I like that saying, I will remember it and then quote it as my own