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Revelation prophecy; the futility of date-setting
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Originally posted by defcon5
Originally posted by DISRAELI
the way you're reading the symbols at the moment is that the United States is potentially putting Christians to death for refusing to worship the Papacy.
I never said that, and I don't believe that the bible says this either.
To be more accurate,I should have written "amounts to saying that".
That is, in Revelation ch13 the second beast puts Christians to death for refusing to worship the first beast.
If you identify the first beast as the Papacy and the second beast as the United States, those substitutions produce the result I described.
Originally posted by defcon5
I think that the problem here is that you're taking this too literally.
Most of the time, my general approach to this book Revelation is nowhere near literal enough to satisfy a lot of the enthusiasts.
However, the picture you're painting doesn't come close enough to the graphic description of ch13 to make me feel that they correspond.
Your view of the key figures doesn't fit my view of the relationship between them
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.
You want to hear something else that is frightening?
Right now the Real ID in Florida, which is used as a testing ground for the rest of the nation, includes one piece of biometric data. A high resolution facial ID scan. They are working very hard to include finger prints to this as well, and you better bet that if yours are already on file in the FBI database, they've already linked them. So what are the two pieces of biometric data that john warned us about? Your hand and your forehead (finger prints and facial scan)...
Senate Sneaks RFID Drivers License, Internet ID into Transportation Bill
The Real ID Act of 2005, implemented in Florida on January 1, 2010, has integrated the more expansive personal data set collected by drivers’ license issuing agencies in the participating states into a national database.
In Florida, this database already includes biometrics in the form of computer facial recognition data, collected at the time one’s DHSMV photo is taken. Sheriffs’ departments in at least 22 Florida counties tap into the database as part of their facial recognition system, or FRnet, and feed real-time images from video cameras to instantly identify anyone whose face is in these cameras’ field of view.
This FRnet database, which is accessible to federal, state, and even local municipal agencies, also contains highly personal information, including scans of birth certificates, social security cards, marriage licenses, and other documents.
As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.
reply to post by defcon5
I remember getting "fingerprinted" in the first grade,the teachers and an over friendly cop lined us all up and told us we were going somewhere
to have fun and then we were all led down the hall single file and into a room to do what we were told was "fingerpainting"
edit on 22-4-2012 by blocula because: (no reason given)
reply to post by blocula
I'm not just saying that, its a historical fact. Look up how the title was transferred from Emperor Gratian to Bishop Damasus. Emperor Justinian also started handing over power from the Emperors to the Popes when he Codified Roman law (Corpus Juris Civilis). The handing over of power under Justinian is often sited as the starting point of the 1260 years of Papal power that ended in 1798 when Napoleon gave the power back to the people of Italy.
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.
I'm not just saying that, its a historical fact. Look up how the title was transferred from Emperor Gratian to Bishop Damasus. Emperor Justinian also started handing over power from the Emperors to the Popes when he Codified Roman law (Corpus Juris Civilis). The handing over of power under Justinian is often sited as the starting point of the 1260 years of Papal power that ended in 1798 when Napoleon gave the power back to the people of Italy.
As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.
Originally posted by DISRAELI
Apart from being strict about what "worship" is, I'm also fairly strict about what is meant by "put to death".
What happens to any nation on the planet that thumbs their nose at the US, its corportations, or its allies? Any nation that refuses to follow our world system.
Originally posted by DISRAELI
I know nobody likes paying taxes, but taking the taxation system as the equivalent of judicial execution is stretching things again.
I'm not exactly saying that paying your taxes is worshiping either, I was simply pointing out that you do follow the system. Again if you don't follow the system, you can end up in prison. As we become more of a police state, expect this to get worse, and the punishments more severe. I never thought I would live to see the day when the US would assassinate its own citizens, imprison people without due process indefinitely, or resort to torture, yet in 10 short years, look where we are already.
As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.
Originally posted by DISRAELI
our view of the key figures doesn't fit my view of the relationship between them
The relationship is that the current system is based on the previous system, and you are being made to comply with the current system (and therefore the previous system by default). You are living in the "New" Roman Empire, one that is vastly more worldly. A world system where people put their faith, and look for their needs to be met, by their government rather then their God.
Think about this for a second.
When you give up freedom to the government for security, besides the obvious, what else are you doing? Your putting your faith in your protection in your government not in your God. If that is not worshiping your government as an idol, I don't know what is. You're allowing your God given freedom to be stripped in exchange for a safer and more worldly life.
What is the whole point of the "mark"? Look at what it takes away if you refuse it? Safety, and ability to do business for survival (worldliness).
Does that make more sense?
As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.
reply to post by defcon5
While wondering about america and its tax system (legalized extortion,imo) i was thinking about how people use to say "the sun never sets on
the british empire" and it still never sets on their empire, because i believe they are the ones who actually own and control america and the rest of
the world.I think the american revolutionary war 1775-83 was designed and started by an elite group,who wanted to make overt control of america
covert,by creating situations where open rebellion would occur,such as the boston massacre.Which resulted in control being handed over to a group of
british plants,who served britain while appearing to serve the united states...
edit on 22-4-2012 by blocula because: (no reason given)
reply to post by blocula
You can get into some pretty good conspiracy stuff with this.
Who really owns the British Empire? Who owned the first banking systems? Where does British law originate from? Who built Hadrian's Wall? Who owned the City of London? I cannot prove it, but it certainly would not surprise me to find it being Rome. St Paul's Cathedral is on the highest point of the City of London. The Vatican has its own bank, some believe that its run by Rothschild. Rome certainly pushed its influence on the whole of Europe for nearly 2000 years. What happened to the money from the Roman Empire after it became the Roman Catholic Church? I'm sure it didn't just disappear.
You could write a whole bunch of threads on this topic.
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.
You can get into some pretty good conspiracy stuff with this.
Who really owns the British Empire? Who owned the first banking systems? Where does British law originate from? Who built Hadrian's Wall? Who owned the City of London? I cannot prove it, but it certainly would not surprise me to find it being Rome. St Paul's Cathedral is on the highest point of the City of London. The Vatican has its own bank, some believe that its run by Rothschild. Rome certainly pushed its influence on the whole of Europe for nearly 2000 years. What happened to the money from the Roman Empire after it became the Roman Catholic Church? I'm sure it didn't just disappear.
You could write a whole bunch of threads on this topic.
As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.
reply to post by defcon5
Every civilization who ever attained some sort of world domination,are all definitely inter-connected and they can be traced backwards in time
and history down through the ages,eventually leading to? the royal bloodline elites? the ancient egyptians? the ancient babylonians? the ancient
sumerians? the atlanteans? with whom and from where does all this actually originate? where does it end,meaning where does is begin? the annunaki?
edit on 22-4-2012 by blocula because: (no reason given)
reply to post by blocula
In case you didn't know this, you might find it interesting:
Daniels Beasts:
1)Babylon = a lion.
2)Media/Persia = a bear.
3)Greece = a leopard.
4)Rome
Now look at Rome in Revelation:
That's because each ingested the system of the one preceding it.
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.
In case you didn't know this, you might find it interesting:
Daniels Beasts:
1)Babylon = a lion.
2)Media/Persia = a bear.
3)Greece = a leopard.
4)Rome
Now look at Rome in Revelation:
And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: -Relevation 13:2
That's because each ingested the system of the one preceding it.
As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.
Like america more or less did with nazi germany? such as operation peperclip and the nazi scientists made exempt from punishment,how nasa/nazi is no coincidence,american state police dressed too similarly to the nazi ss,america having a large percentage of its own people in prison,more than any other country in the world,america imposing its iron will and military power wherever they please, whenever they want...
Originally posted by defcon5
reply to post by blocula
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.
That's because each ingested the system of the one preceding it.
As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.
edit on 23-4-2012 by blocula because: (no reason given)
reply to post by blocula
I wouldn't say that's true, but we did take a lot of their research and scientists.
And in truth, much of what the Germans did wasn't new either.
As it says:
“There's nothing new under the sun”
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.
I wouldn't say that's true, but we did take a lot of their research and scientists.
And in truth, much of what the Germans did wasn't new either.
As it says:
“There's nothing new under the sun”
As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.
Originally posted by defcon5
Think about this for a second.
When you give up freedom to the government for security, besides the obvious, what else are you doing? Your putting your faith in your protection in your government not in your God. If that is not worshiping your government as an idol, I don't know what is. You're allowing your God given freedom to be stripped in exchange for a safer and more worldly life.
Who owns you? Own = control. In my case it's clearly the government. They give orders and i follow them, because otherwise life gets ugly. God gave orders too, and we don't follow them, because we're successfully distracted by both government and society.
It's very disheartening to see how quickly society falls into tune with the state.
Originally posted by SeedofAbraham
Hosea 6:2 After two days He will revive us: in the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight
Surely the traditional Christian application of this prophecy is the resurrection of Christ "on the third day".
That text is only being given an end-times application at the moment because it fits in with the current date.
In 1260, the year that Joachim of Fiore was focussing on, they would not have used it, and by the time we reach A.D. 4000 they won't be using it that way.
The problem with all these date calculations, like the 666 Gematria calculations, is that they're really starting with the intended result and then working backwards to make it all fit.
Originally posted by SeedofAbraham
Daniel 9:27 and he shall strengthen the covenant with many for one week
... does not say anything about a new treaty being signed or made by the anti-christ
On this point I agree with you, for different or additional reasons.
Covenants in the Old Testament (and surrounding cultures) were normally two-party agreements.
In the covenant between God and Israel, Israel has to be regarded as a single party.
So I do not think the verse means that he makes a multi-party covenant on one occasion.
I think it means he makes a two-party covenant on many occasions.
I also link this verse with Revelation ch17 v13, where the ten kings of the earth give their authority to the beast.
To me, these verses are talking about the same thing.
This is the ruler building up a network of subordinate allies, making covenant with each one in turn (Daniel) and accepting their allegiance (Revelation).
reply to post by SeedofAbraham
This interpretation of the ten horns is a little strained.
You had to work quite hard to provide ten.
It seems to me that the "little horn", like the much-speaking second beast in Revelation ch13, is meant to represent an individual, which works against your interpretation of it.
Obviously this line of interpretation will go flat once Obama goes out of office.
This interpretation of the ten horns is a little strained.
You had to work quite hard to provide ten.
It seems to me that the "little horn", like the much-speaking second beast in Revelation ch13, is meant to represent an individual, which works against your interpretation of it.
Obviously this line of interpretation will go flat once Obama goes out of office.
reply to post by defcon5
I'm normally willing to find symbols in quite a lot of the information found in Revelation.
I can understand symbolism in the "mortal wound", and "causing the image to speak", and the nature and placing of the "number". But I do see a need to take some aspects of it more literally, and for some reason your take on what the second beast was doing was falling, for me, on the wrong side of the dividing line. I was already in bed by the time i worked out exactly why this was.
It goes back to what I was saying to the date-calculators at the very beginning of this thread;
"Revelation is not a general, all-purpose, "prediction of the future". The prophecy in Revelation is not an end in itself, but the means to an end."
I see Revelation as a manual of encouragement for a church which is under persecution for failing to abandon the Biblical God.
That is the central question of the book; do we, or do we not, hold with the Biblical God and his Christ?.
That's the essence of the book, the reason why the book was written.
That's what I'm missing from your scenario. In your description of what the American government is doing or might be doing, I don't see an explicit demand to abandon loyalty to the Biblical God. If that demand isn't there, and people are not suffering death because of it, then we haven't got the situation that Revelation was designed to deal with.
The liberties of the American people could be ground under foot entirely, but that would not, in itself, be an attack on the Biblical God, because the liberties of the American people are not the same thing as God..
The conflict needs to be much more explicit, if it's going to match what Revelation is talking about.
I'm normally willing to find symbols in quite a lot of the information found in Revelation.
I can understand symbolism in the "mortal wound", and "causing the image to speak", and the nature and placing of the "number". But I do see a need to take some aspects of it more literally, and for some reason your take on what the second beast was doing was falling, for me, on the wrong side of the dividing line. I was already in bed by the time i worked out exactly why this was.
It goes back to what I was saying to the date-calculators at the very beginning of this thread;
"Revelation is not a general, all-purpose, "prediction of the future". The prophecy in Revelation is not an end in itself, but the means to an end."
I see Revelation as a manual of encouragement for a church which is under persecution for failing to abandon the Biblical God.
That is the central question of the book; do we, or do we not, hold with the Biblical God and his Christ?.
That's the essence of the book, the reason why the book was written.
That's what I'm missing from your scenario. In your description of what the American government is doing or might be doing, I don't see an explicit demand to abandon loyalty to the Biblical God. If that demand isn't there, and people are not suffering death because of it, then we haven't got the situation that Revelation was designed to deal with.
The liberties of the American people could be ground under foot entirely, but that would not, in itself, be an attack on the Biblical God, because the liberties of the American people are not the same thing as God..
The conflict needs to be much more explicit, if it's going to match what Revelation is talking about.
reply to post by DISRAELI
relevant snip
Americans and much of the rest of the world is steadily abandoning 'God' in favor of material things, Money, IT devices and are merely paying social lip-service to their belief in God ...
foods stamps are more real than a belief or faith that their savior (God) will provide
i find your view is glossing over the whole fabric of falling away... or abandoning 'loyaly' to the Biblical God
just my personal observation...not meant as a slam, ok?
relevant snip
That's what I'm missing from your scenario. In your description of what the American government is doing or might be doing, I don't see an explicit demand to abandon loyalty to the Biblical God. If that demand isn't there, and people are not suffering death because of it, then we haven't got the situation that Revelation was designed to deal with.
Americans and much of the rest of the world is steadily abandoning 'God' in favor of material things, Money, IT devices and are merely paying social lip-service to their belief in God ...
foods stamps are more real than a belief or faith that their savior (God) will provide
i find your view is glossing over the whole fabric of falling away... or abandoning 'loyaly' to the Biblical God
just my personal observation...not meant as a slam, ok?
edit on 23-4-2012 by St Udio because: (no reason given)
reply to post by St Udio
But that isn't a falling away being demanded by authority, so that's where I miss the element of conflict.
Hey, how did I suddenly get to be the one insisting on literal interpretation?
But that isn't a falling away being demanded by authority, so that's where I miss the element of conflict.
Hey, how did I suddenly get to be the one insisting on literal interpretation?
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