End Times prophecy's of Old Testament prophets and the near present future of the Middle East.

reply to post by CLPrime

Act_19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

So John's baptism was one of repentance.

Salvation comes another way - by being indwelt by the Spirit at baptism (full water immersion in the name of Jesus Christ).

I'm going to have to call you on this. Please substantiate?

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

You quoted vs 38, but 39 explains that they (the gentiles) had now become heirs to the promise. The promise to Abraham, again highlighting that gentiles were able to convert too.

You're very learned, are you gnostic?

Originally posted by harryhaller

Act_19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

So John's baptism was one of repentance.

Indeed it was.

Salvation comes another way - by being indwelt by the Spirit at baptism (full water immersion in the name of Jesus Christ).

I'm going to have to call you on this. Please substantiate?

No problem...I should have substantiated it in the first place.

First of all, the Holy Spirit indwells us:
1 Corinthians 6:19 - Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?

Second, the Holy Spirit saves us:
John 3:5 - Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."
Titus 3:5 - he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit

Third, the timing:
Acts 2:38 - Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

The Holy Spirit is received (and sins are forgiven) when a person repents and is baptized. Note, in the original Greek of Acts 2:38, these are both imperatives: "You MUST repent AND each of you MUST be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins AND you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

You quoted vs 38, but 39 explains that they (the gentiles) had now become heirs to the promise. The promise to Abraham, again highlighting that gentiles were able to convert too.

Acts 2:39 says nothing of the Gentiles. Peter was speaking to Jews. This was prior to the conversion of Cornelius and his household, so the idea of Gentile believers was still unheard of.

You're very learned, are you gnostic?

I'm a preacher within what is commonly called the Restoration Movement - or, more generally, the independent, nondenominational, "Bible-only" churches of Christ.
Like the apostle Paul, I reject Gnosticism (as well as all other non- and anti-Scriptural "-ism"s) as being the spirit of antichrist, which rejects Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

THE MEANING OF “BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT” IN JOHN 3:5

www.dbts.edu...

reply to post by Deetermined


It doesn't matter what the "born of water" part means...I wasn't using that verse to prove any sort of point about water baptism.

reply to post by CLPrime


Yes you did, when you said this:

"The Holy Spirit is received (and sins are forgiven) when a person repents and is baptized. Note, in the original Greek of Acts 2:38, these are both imperatives: "You MUST repent AND each of you MUST be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins AND you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

reply to post by Deetermined


I wasn't using John 3:5 to prove that. I was using it to show that salvation is from the Spirit.

reply to post by CLPrime


Cover it up any way you want, but this was the statement that "harryhaller" quoted and asked you to respond to:

"Salvation comes another way - by being indwelt by the Spirit at baptism (full water immersion in the name of Jesus Christ). "

You can say that you're only pointing out that salvation is received through the Holy Spirit, but you also try to say that receiving the Holy Spirit is done through water baptism.

That's why I'm going to recommend that "harryhaller" read the meaning of "water and spirit".

Originally posted by Deetermined

You can say that you're only pointing out that salvation is received through the Holy Spirit, but you also try to say that receiving the Holy Spirit is done through water baptism.

Yes, I know...but I wasn't using that verse to prove that point. I used Acts 2:38 to prove that point. It's called bullet-pointing. I had three concepts that I wanted to prove: 1) that the Spirit indwells us; 2) that salvation is from the Spirit; and 3) that the Spirit is received after repentance and baptism. I gave a verse to prove point 1. I gave two verses to prove point 2. I gave another verse to prove point 3. John 3:5 wasn't to prove point 3, it was for point 2.

Luke 11:9-13

9) “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10) For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. 11) “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12) Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13) If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

Roman 4:9-11

9) Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10) Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11) And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

Water baptism is a covenant sign:

Covenant Signs Covenants have signs that represent the covenant promises.

The Adamic Covenant was made between God and Adam, where Adam would have everlasting life based on obedience to God (Gen. 1:28-30; 2:15). The sign was the Tree of Life (Gen. 2:9).

The Noahic Covenant was between God and Noah and was the promise by God to never destroy the earth again by a flood (Gen. 9:11). The sign of the covenant is the rainbow (Gen. 9:13).

The Mosaic Covenant was between God and the Israelites, where they would be a “kingdom of priests and a holy nation” (Exodus 19:6), and the sign of the covenant was the tablets of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 24:12).

The New Covenant is between Christ and his church and consists of obtaining eternal salvation. The covenant sign is baptism (Col. 2:11-12) with the continued participation in the covenant via the Lord's Supper (1 Cor. 11:25).

carm.org...

Water baptism, the Lord's Supper and Circumcision are all signs and outward manifestations of faith.

They symbolize our covenant with Jesus, but righteousness is credited through FAITH, not ceremonies.

reply to post by Deetermined


What was to happen to those under the Old Covenant who were not circumcised?

Originally posted by Deetermined
Cover it up any way you want, but this was the statement that "harryhaller" quoted and asked you to respond to:

"Salvation comes another way - by being indwelt by the Spirit at baptism (full water immersion in the name of Jesus Christ). "

You can say that you're only pointing out that salvation is received through the Holy Spirit, but you also try to say that receiving the Holy Spirit is done through water baptism.

That's why I'm going to recommend that "harryhaller" read the meaning of "water and spirit".

This is kinda strange for me, but Deetermined yes you have it right, although it's taken me a while of sitting and reading to try and figure it out myself

CLPrime it was a very good answer, thanks. Although i'm on the side of by GRACE and by FAITH ... not works or deeds. And yes, born of water and spirit as you quoted, don't enforce the theory of baptism being a requirement? We're already born of water, the first time. And it's the spiritual birth enabled by Christ which we need to accept. His grace and our faith. No ceremony required.

reply to post by harryhaller


Once again, I wasn't using John 3:5 to establish the necessity of water baptism. I was using it only to establish that we are saved by the Spirit.

Also, I would encourage you to hold off judgement, because we're not done yet. This discussion isn't over (as long as Deetermined comes back to it).
And then we still have to get back to the original topic of the thread.

reply to post by CLPrime


Fair point, but i do think you proved Deetermined's point

I'm enjoying this discussion greatly, we all have much to learn.

Originally posted by harryhaller

Fair point, but i do think you proved Deetermined's point

Hmm...how so?

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by Deetermined

 

What was to happen to those under the Old Covenant who were not circumcised?

Deetermined...this requires that you actually check this thread and respond to my question. Otherwise, I will continue this discussion without you.

reply to post by CLPrime


By specifying the twice born theology.

Late last night i found a very interesting website, relating to the Anabaptists. So i thought of what you said, and it seems like your views are very similar to those, except you see it as a requirement. Again, you SHOULD be baptised, moreso, you should WANT TO be ... but if you get nailed by a train en route to being baptised, that's not going to hold you back ... IMHO.

The idea of baptism being a requirement is i think part of the problem of the RC church. Almost like they can claim any child, by performing a rite over them. They're very much about owning everything and everyone, and infant baptism isn't biblical, it's a control technique, like much of RC theology.

reply to post by harryhaller

Another way of putting the same thing is that New Testament baptism is the public expression of salvation, not one of the causes.
In Cranmer's words, "the outward and visible sign...".

reply to files.abovetopsecret.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink">post by DISRAELI


Agreed.

The only 2 outward signs that i know of are:
Baptism and observance of the sabbath.

The rest is all between us and our God.

Originally posted by harryhaller

... if you get nailed by a train en route to being baptised, that's not going to hold you back ... IMHO.

That's always been a ridiculous argument. What if a person gets hit by a train before they have a chance to repent? What if a person gets hit by a train before they have a chance to publicly confess Jesus as Saviour? However you wish to answer these, the same answer applies to dying before being able to be baptized.

So...how do you discount all the passages that testify to the fact that baptism saves by the washing away of sins?
I might add, repentance is more of a "work" than baptism. You do all the work when you repent (you're the one who has to make the decision to turn from sin and turn toward God). When you are baptized, the work is done by Christ (he's the one who cleanses you by his blood as you join in his death, burial, and resurrection).

Again, you SHOULD be baptised, moreso, you should WANT TO be

There's no "should" about it. In Acts 2:38, Peter commanded the Jews to repent and be baptized. The Greek verbs for both are in the imperative mood - they MUST be done to receive what follows (which is forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit).