End Times prophecy's of Old Testament prophets and the near present future of the Middle East.

Originally posted by CLPrimeHow could the thief on the cross be baptized before the whole point of baptism was established?

Then why was Jesus baptism so important? Where the immersion in water was met by the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove? And confirmed by the voice of the Father at the same time. If anything, that event sealed the link between physical and spiritual baptism, not the cross. Even so, while fully forgiven, the Holy Spirit had not yet been sent to all the earth, and even Jesus had been "forsaken".

I'm certain the thief is in heaven, but i'm almost sure he wasn't baptised either way in the short time he lived on.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

So as you can see, it is not baptism in water that saved them and made them clean it was baptism by the Holy Spirit which they had already gained by believing in Jesus. By you saying baptism by water saves you, negates Christ as being the medium for salvation and you make yourself antichrist.

You skimmed over Acts 11:14 - "He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved." As I said, Peter brought only two things: the Gospel, and baptism in water. They had already heard the Gospel, so the only thing left by which they "must be saved" is baptism.

No one was ever saved by this so-called "Holy Spirit baptism." Cornelius and his household wasn't saved by the Holy Spirit coming on them - this was to show the Jews that Gentiles were to be accepted (and this is the only instance where this happens). They were saved by being baptized after the Jews had seen that these Gentiles were to be accepted.
There is a distinct difference between the Holy Spirit being "in" you and it being "on" you. When it's "in" you, it saves you (this is the gift, δωρεὰν, of the Holy Spirit spoken of in Acts 2:38); when it's "on" you, you speak in tongues, heal, and prophesy (called gifts, χαρίσματα, of the Holy Spirit). No one has the Spirit "on" them anymore. Given that, either salvation doesn't exist anymore or salvation comes another way.
Salvation comes another way - by being indwelt by the Spirit at baptism (full water immersion in the name of Jesus Christ).

You argument above is negated by one of the verses I quoted yesterday: 1 Peter 3:21 (speaking of the Genesis flood, which "saved" Noah and his family by cleansing the earth of sin) - "this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also - not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
The water doesn't save, it's a cleansing by the blood of Christ by joining in his death (going under the water), burial (being held under the water), and resurrection (coming up out of the water). All the power rests with Christ.

reply to post by harryhaller


Jesus' baptism was a symbolic act, at which point he had the Holy Spirit fall on him, it being time for him to perform miracles throughout Judea.

I'm certain the thief is in heaven, but i'm almost sure he wasn't baptised either way in the short time he lived on.

Once again...the power of baptism is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. This hadn't happened by the time of the thief on the cross incident (of course...Jesus was on the cross with him). And, once again, he was saved the same way all were saved under the Old Covenant.

reply to post by CLPrime


I think it's pretty clear by the verses that "the water symbolizes baptism" and that baptism symbolizes the death, burial and resurrection, therefore, cleaning the slate and clearing the conscious.

I'm not sure how anyone could misinterpret this as being anything more than symbolism just like communion symbolizes the Lord's supper and remembrance of Him. Communion is not literal either. It's a symbolism and tradition in honoring and remembering Christ and what He did for us.

reply to post by Deetermined


Baptism doesn't just symbolize the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ...it's our joining with Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins. That's the consistent theme throughout the New Testament.

reply to post by CLPrime


I would say the consistent theme throughout the New Testament is one of acknowledging Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, who came to earth to die for our sins so that we all shall be saved. Along with loving Him with all of our hearts and making Him our first priority so that we'll do His will and not our own.

Other than that, I'm convinced that Christians are capable of interpreting the Bible differently for three reasons. First, regardless of acknowledging Christ as our savior, we're still imperfect humans living in a sinful world controlled by Satan who wants to confuse us. Second, God allowing Satan to confuse us builds up our Faith in Him to guide us regardless of what we think we "know" through our intellect. Third, it's obviously not our time to know exact truths and to have all knowledge. When it's time, all will be revealed in it's perfection and with understanding.

I did once had a vision and saw him coming on the clouds.

With all his greatness, power, I can tell it was hard to even take a look (on that moment I was in a desert (in my vision).

I felt rather small seeing him in all his glory but since I was in ''sack and ash''/feeling you lost everything on that moment (or what's the correct word in english), it gave me allot of strenght.

Qur’an / Koran
Al Naba’ (the Great News) Chapter 78

Verse 1
Concerning what
Are they disputing?

2
Concerning the Great News,

3
About which they
Cannot agree.

Verse 8
And (have We not) created
you in pairs,

9
And made your sleep
For rest,

10
And made the night
As a covering,

11
And made the day
As a means of subsistence?
---
My interpretation: the scripture is an actual prophecy of Judgment Day. One issue is most emphatic: Man and Woman lay together at night time and work is for the day time.

Verse 13
And placed (therein)
A Light of Splendour?

14
And do We not send down
From the clouds water
In abundance,

15
That We may produce
Therewith corn and vegetables,

16
And gardens of luxurious growth?
---
The paradise of righteous men and women, to foreshadow its reiteration later in the chapter.

17
Verily the Day
Of Sorting Out
Is a thing appointed –
---
I consider the prophetic connotation a day appointed to reward good deeds and punish the wicked.
I feel that is a day of maturity, which is why

18
The Day that the Trumpet
Shall be sounded
---
The number of the Verse symbolizes the age of adulthood. Every parent’s responsibility is to the maturation of their children until that day, then they are free.

19
And the heavens
Shall be opened

Verse 21.
Truly Hell is
As a place of ambush –
---
If 18 is not the appropriate age, 21 is on the table. The ambush of baited projection. Eventually,

99:7
So whoever does an atom’s weight of good will see it,

99:8
And whoever does an atom’s weight of evil will see it.
---
I consider the Qur’an filled with symbolic references to Revelations throughout. Back to
Chapter 78,

Verse 22
For the transgressors
A place of destination:

23
They will dwell therein
For ages.
---
Age complexity, intellectual justification as ego driven to shield one’s self. All my research into the #23 corresponds its meaning to “significance,” especially in reference to synchronicity.

Synchronicity – invisible causality connecting distant events symbolically, as first postulated by Carl Jung, one of the two primary founders of the science of sanity.

The significance being emphasized is the importance of accurately evaluating the age of maturity. 18, 21 if there is any doubt.

Regardless of what tempted them, the most painful region of hell exists for those whom victimize children.

28
But they (impudently) treated
Our Signs as false.
---
I suspect 2 & 8 symbolizes the Nazi Heil Hitler insignia, 88, in modern times about as popular as the swastika: and Nazi end times Mengela-esque leveraging tactics.

Nazis will do anything to entrap or frame Semitic peoples, which includes the ancestry of the Islamic global majority.

I consider this the prophetic connotation symbolized by the verse’s number, but am also mindful of any form of rebellion against the will of an unconditionally loving God of omniscient understanding.

To me this means the Universe experiences life if unconditional love exists – and since I cannot read a mind as big as God’s in any instance I serve whatever Allah is real.

29
And all things have We
Preserved on record.
---
People can be framed, humans can conceal misdeeds from one another to temporarily circumvent justice, but a definite record exists carefully guarded by the angels (messengers) indwelt with God’s presence. Also referred to as Akashic Record (Angel Tech by Antero Alli), and willful confession before peers in concern to those who accept the Mark of the Beast (loss is not conditional upon finalization).

32
Gardens enclosed, and
Grapevines;

33
Companions of Equal Age;
---
The paradise foreshadowed, promised the righteous within the Surah in part because it is already available to such individuals now.

I consider the historic importance of marriage the emphasis of the sacredness of equality, as against the domineering advances of broad shouldered cavemen with pride and a club as against conscious feminine rebellion.

Equivalent mental and physical maturity, because such partnerships are the exclusive province of equals (once 18 only has been established as Qur’anic Law).

36
Recompense from thy Lord,
A Gift, (amply) sufficient –
---
Both opportunity from God to make amends, and fair reward for doing so. In concern to 666 (often called three six), a prophecy that those hustled into accepting the Mark of the Beast, the wager of one’s own soul disguised as certainty of victory, have an opportunity to repay their eye for an eye betrayal through restitution.

39
That Day will be
The sure Reality:
Therefore, whoso will, let him
Take a (straight) Return
To his Lord!
---
The Nullification of the Con, a transition in species maturity, symbolized by its antithetical number 999. The death of projection. “The sure Reality,” the ability to finalize with strict accuracy “the truth”.

Surah 78 says those whose deeds finalized betray eye for an eye burn severely in Verse 24 – 25, because of a drink, and those whose deeds are on the altruistic side of the scale are rewarded profusely because of a drink; Verse 34.

24th Verse, the Hour of Finalization:
Nothing cool shall they taste
Therein, nor any drink
---
5 is the Kabbalistic Sphere of Severity, fivefold emphasized is

Verse 25
Save a boiling fluid
And a fluid, dark, murky,
Intensely cold –
---
Later, when the fate of the righteous is discussed . . . ,

Verse 34
And a Cup full
(To the Brim).
---
Sometimes translated as wine, the blood of christ within Christianity. The energy of the heart is blood / love. Win = victory.

In closing, I consider prophecy the non abstract mapping of causality, and the Old and New Testament and the Qur’an *the Book: staged by angels dealing with such data, indwelt by the heart of God, inspired by Allah.

I consider the Bible incomplete without the Qur’an, and suspect the positive Conspiracy of the Book’s creation to be the largest and least reversible in history.

- KB

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Let's not forget the marks muslims develop on their foreheads called prayer bumps that is caused by repeated friction of their foreheads against their prayer mats by their prostrations. Marks on the forehead...sounds just like the Mark of the Beast.

This part of your theory fits well into your scenario, but you failed to mention that some would also have the mark on their right hand,
How does this mark appear through prayer?

Originally posted by munkey66

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Let's not forget the marks muslims develop on their foreheads called prayer bumps that is caused by repeated friction of their foreheads against their prayer mats by their prostrations. Marks on the forehead...sounds just like the Mark of the Beast.

This part of your theory fits well into your scenario, but you failed to mention that some would also have the mark on their right hand,
How does this mark appear through prayer?

Thats the one thing i am still working on figuring out. Like i said this is just a theory, so i am still working on it. That prayer bump is often referred to as the "third eye" often by hindu which also just happens to be....The Eye of Horus and Ishmael was half egyptian and he could have been influenced by his mother's paganism and ther eare stories that he went to egypt and married an egyptian and may even have become a prominant figure in the egyptian society.

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by Deetermined

 

Baptism doesn't just symbolize the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ...it's our joining with Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins. That's the consistent theme throughout the New Testament.

Then why does Acts 11 contradict you?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


How does Acts 11 contradict me?

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

How does Acts 11 contradict me?

I just posted it, go back and read it. Read it until you understand it.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


You mean that last post of yours I replied to? If so, I'd suggest you read by reply until you understand it.

reply to post by CLPrime


Here are verses from Acts 11:

11 “Just then three men who had been sent from Caesarea arrived at the house where we were staying. 12 The Holy Spirit told me to go with them and not to worry that they were Gentiles. These six brothers here accompanied me, and we soon entered the home of the man who had sent for us. 13 He told us how an angel had appeared to him in his home and had told him, ‘Send messengers to Joppa, and summon a man named Simon Peter. 14 He will tell you how you and everyone in your household can be saved!’ 15 “As I began to speak,” Peter continued, “the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as he fell on us at the beginning. 16 Then I thought of the Lord’s words when he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 And since God gave these Gentiles the same gift he gave us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to stand in God’s way?” 18 When the others heard this, they stopped objecting and began praising God. They said, “We can see that God has also given the Gentiles the privilege of repenting of their sins and receiving eternal life.”

Please explain how these verses support your view.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by CLPrime

 

Here are verses from Acts 11:

11 “Just then three men who had been sent from Caesarea arrived at the house where we were staying. 12 The Holy Spirit told me to go with them and not to worry that they were Gentiles. These six brothers here accompanied me, and we soon entered the home of the man who had sent for us. 13 He told us how an angel had appeared to him in his home and had told him, ‘Send messengers to Joppa, and summon a man named Simon Peter. 14 He will tell you how you and everyone in your household can be saved!’ 15 “As I began to speak,” Peter continued, “the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as he fell on us at the beginning. 16 Then I thought of the Lord’s words when he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 And since God gave these Gentiles the same gift he gave us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to stand in God’s way?” 18 When the others heard this, they stopped objecting and began praising God. They said, “We can see that God has also given the Gentiles the privilege of repenting of their sins and receiving eternal life.”

Please explain how these verses support your view.

The key question here is whether salvation comes with initial faith, Spirit baptism, or water baptism. Those are the three possibilities.

We can discount one of these immediately. The phrase "you will baptize with the Holy Spirit" is said of the Apostles concerning their power to bestow the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands. Only the Apostles had this power, as well as those the Apostles laid their hands on. Nowhere in the New Testament do we find anyone else with the ability to bestow the Spirit via the laying on of hands. We even see instances where the Apostles baptized people and the Spirit never came on them, so the Holy Spirit coming on believers cannot be linked with salvation. It may happen at salvation, but it doesn't have to - it can happen later, whenever the laying on of the Apostles' hands is received, or it may not happen at all, as we see after this first generation of believers all the way up to today. If the Holy Spirit coming on believers is necessary for salvation, then no one is saved today because no one receives the gifts (charismata) of the Spirit anymore.

So, that leaves two possibilites: either salvation comes with bare faith, or it comes at water baptism.
Cornelius and his household had faith. In fact, they were righteous in the eyes of God. But, what did the angel tell Cornelius? The angel said, "Send messengers to Joppa, and summon a man named Simon Peter. He will tell you how you and everyone in your household can be saved." If Cornelius and his household were saved by bare faith, then why did Peter have to go and tell them what they had to do to be saved?
You may discount this by saying that it was the Gospel that Peter had to take to Cornelius and his household, but this is wrong. In Acts 10:36, Peter says to them, "You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all." They already knew the Gospel. Peter bringing them the Gospel was redundant, because they already knew it, and we see this in the fact that it was when Peter had begun to speak (before he had even told them the Gospel) that the Holy Spirit came on the household.

Again, we come back to the Spirit. What happened when it came on the household? In Acts 10:45, we read, "The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles." This was why the Spirit came on the household. Its purpose was to prove to the Jews who were there that the Gentiles were to be accepted into the Church.
It was at that time - once the Jews had seen that these Gentiles were accepted by God - that Peter said, "Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."
This is the only thing that we can link to their salvation. They were accepted, and then they were commanded to be baptized, just as Peter had earlier commanded of the Jews - "You must repent, and each of you must be baptized, for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38 - literal Greek translation).

reply to post by CLPrime


Yes, Acts 10:34-38 explains to Cornelius what he already knows about God sending Jesus.

However, Peter goes on to tell Cornelius and his household about being witnesses to Jesus' death and how he rose after the third day in verses 39 - 43. This doesn't appear to be something Cornelius already knew. It was while Peter was telling them about this that they all came under the Holy Spirit. The message of salvation being in verse 43) "All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

Maybe this link will help to explain:

www.faithfacts.org...

reply to post by Deetermined


Cornelius and his household seem to have already known that part as well. Peter opens that part of the message by saying, "You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea ... ."
The only thing he adds to the list of events they already know is the fact that Peter was an eye witness to it all. That would imply that their salvation required hearing the Gospel from the mouth of an eye witness to Jesus' death. Is that the case?

reply to post by CLPrime


Yes, Cornelius knew what happened in the province of Judea, but Peter was referring to the baptism of Jesus and how the Holy Spirit entered Him at that time. He also spoke of the healings that Jesus performed after that.
(Acts 10:34-38)

Now, let's look at scripture in Luke 24:44-49, when Jesus visits his disciples after his resurrection:

44) He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” 45) Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46) He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47) and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48) You are witnesses of these things. 49) I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”

Up until Jesus' resurrection they were all preaching the "Kingdom of God" and "baptism of repentance", they weren't preaching that Jesus was the Messiah until after his resurrection.

Notice how verse 45 in Luke 24 mentions that Jesus opened the minds of the disciples so they could understand the Scriptures. Verse 47 mentions that all would be preached "in his name" from then on.

I believe it was at that time that Peter went to Cornelius to confirm that forgiveness of sins and repentance was supposed to be done in Jesus' name from then on. We already know that Cornelius had a relationship with God, so the message of salvation had to be through JESUS' death and resurrection. From then on, forgiveness of sins could only be done through Him.