Jesus' death... standard Roman execution or sacrifice for sins?

Did U guys know about theory that "Jesus was a Buddhist Monk" here is BBC Documentary:



This BBC 4 documentary examines the question "Did Jesus Die?". It looks at a bunch of ideas around this question until minute 25, where this examination of ideas takes a very logical and grounded turn with surprising conclusions that demonstrate...

The three wise men were Buddhist monks who found Jesus and came back for him around puberty. After being trained in a Buddhist Monastery he spread the Buddhist philosophy, survived the crucifixion, and escaped to Kashmir, Afghanistan where he died an old man at the age of 80

www.youtube.com...

reply to post by ZakOlongapo


Have you heard of Issa?

The lost years...

reply to post by Akragon



Yes i did...

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Yeah, I suppose it was too difficult to understand it would be "faster and easier" the other way, but no biggie.

You know what? You're a crap teacher.

I'm not any kind of theacher

I'm a student, sitting here listening to you 'teaching', and you are persistently rude and refuse to answer legitimate questions.

I didn't refuse to answer anything, if you recall I said it would be "faster" and "easier" for hydeo to address any contradictions he felt was in the account. And it would have been, I've been out of the house all day and haven't had time to get into it, so it has been quite longer.

You're the 'hobbyist born-again.' Do your thing! Or by your handle do you mean You're Not a Typical Born-Again Jesus Freak because you don't bother to substantiate your hobbyist claims?

Ad hominem.

I think you're cowardly, and arrogant, sir,

I'm flippant quite often, but oh well we're all grown ups here. Quit with the personal attacks.

and have no business talking to anyone about your "knowledge", which is nothing but disrespectful lip-service dogma regurgitated.

That's fine, you can feel that way. More ad hominem.

You are not in a position to tell us who actually eye-witnessed anything, because: YOU. WEREN'T. THERE.

Historians can though, because: IT'S. THEIR. JOB. Even atheist and agnostic historians and critics don't deny Jesus lived, was crucified, died, and His apostles believed they saw Him after He resurrected. No credible historian denies that because of the gospel accounts. And historians subject them to the same scrutiny they apply to any other historical written account from antiquity.

"Indisputible fact" from an atheist historian is pretty solid evidence for. No bias can be claimed at all.

Ah, but you are a master apologist! Speak up!!

I am, now that I have time. Remember easier and faster was vetoed by a 2-1 vote.

You hate religion, it says in your signature. Yet when someone challenges you, you spit venom and diddle around and refuse to answer.

Some people, who I have known for 3-4 years now on here I may refuse to answer because I know they aren't looking for an answer but just to troll. I'm not feeding a troll, sorry. I'm only venomous with the wolves.

You are a poser.

Now you're just ranting, more ad hominem, you're attacking me and not the topic.

Or, you know what? Don't take the time to explain. Don't share your vast and dazzling wisdom with people who have rebuttals and actual questions.. Don't make a lesson plan and systematically deliver it to your 'listeners.'

I don't have 'listeners', I'm not a 'teacher'. Most of the time I do, the forum trolls I usually wont entertain, that's simply good forum protocol.

Instead, just degrade and abuse them, tell them no one is reading what they write...]

That wasn't me, someone else told JM "no one was reading what he said".

call them liars...

You don't know why that is so why are you meddling? When someone repeatedly lies about me after correcting them numerous times I will call them out for it. Sorry if that offends you.

Do you consider yourself patient, tolerant, and kind?

Wow, this is still about me?? Yes, but I'm not petting the devils of the religious hypocrites and cuddling the wolves. Not because I don't love them but because I also love the sheep.

Do you, sir, practice the Golden Rule?

Absolutely, and what's cool is now that the Holy Spirit resides in me I'm convicted usually immediately when I fail to treat someone like Christ would have. Whereas before I was oblivious to that being a sin. But I'm not perfect, none of us are, that's why Jesus came and died for us.

You think you know so much you don't need to be, right?

I know quite a bit, but I wouldn't say " a olt", I enjoy learning new things as often as possible.

You aren't actually interested in explaining anything, or providing sources, or even explaining yourself. I get it.

I will when I have time, kinda why I wanted to have Hydro address the specifics of what he was confused about, I tried to get to his concerns quickly and easily, no one wanted that. So I'll address it after my bath later.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

It has historical use for understanding the doctrines and theology of the Gnostics from Alexandria

WHICH WERE THE ORIGINAL CHRISTIANS.

No they weren't. Most historians agree that the first to meld Gnosticism with Christianity was Justin Martyr, who was born after the apostles and first century Christians had died. The gospels and NT epistles were all written before that time in history.

reply to post by chr0naut

The Gospel of Thomas is not likely to have been written by the Apostle Thomas. Please note the following quote:

Not only to mention that, but there are half a dozen such references from early church fathers to the "Gospel of Thomas", and not a single one of those was "Wow, there is this gospel Thomas, we have to find it, it's a great one!", but all the references say basically, "Hey, there is this fake going around, going by "Thomas". It's not, real, they cooked it up."

reply to post by NOTurTypical

. . . I'm not petting the devils of the religious hypocrites and cuddling the wolves.

You should consider yourself a wolf because
the wolves in the New Testament are the people preaching
'sin all you want'
theology, like yours.
The wolves are never people who promote righteousness.

In Acts 20 you see Paul warning of fierce wolves who will tear at the flock, to draw people away. Then he describes what sort of teaching they would be in danger of being drawn away from:

This message is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

reply to post by jmdewey60

'sin all you want'
theology, like yours.

Dude, really.. honestly, will you please stop lying? It's getting ridiculous. I've repeatedly told you I've never claimed that and I don't believe that. I've also qualified my statement bu saying that if a person is bound in sin that's evidence their faith is in vain, it's a dead faith as James says. Quit lying about me, I've explained enough times to you I don't believe that whatsoever.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


So what is your explanation then?
That we are all predestined and faith is no way to avert our fate?
Some people are predetermined to do good works and others are doomed, finding it impossible to do good works?
I did not realize you reversed your former position about free grace.

reply to post by wildtimes


2 John 1:7:

"Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist."

One of the heresies of gnosticism is that Jesus was a spirit and not flesh. They were heretics, not original Christians.

You think I know nothing because I am younger. But I understand that Hindu and Buddhist concepts have an air of respectability, and I also know it appeals to many people who love pluralism and seems deep.

You can say people ignore near death experiences, but then you would be ignoring the people with testimonies of a real hell, perhaps saying their beliefs made it real.

And I was not threatening you. I was saying the idea of hell turns many people away from Christianity.

reply to post by 547000

One of the heresies of gnosticism is that Jesus was a spirit and not flesh.

What does this mean? Explain, please. They knew him, the man, flesh and blood.
Are you talking about him having 'risen from the dead' in flesh?

Normally I am able to follow your thinking pretty well, but this time you lost me. Maybe I haven't had enough coffee yet.

You can say people ignore near death experiences, but then you would be ignoring the people with testimonies of a real hell, perhaps saying their beliefs made it real.

Wha? Dude, just yesterday when I grew weary of all the silly bickering on here, I went to youtube and watched some very cool vids about kids who recalled their past lives. I am very much interested in NDEs, and have been for years.

If you understand Hindu and Buddhist thought (which I question, as you are a young occidental, and were not raised with the same worldview as an oriental youth), then you might be aware of karma.

The Tibetan Book of the Dead was written as a how-to manual for the guru or yogi who was to preside over the process of the soul's departure from the body. Every person dies with a measure of karmic debt. The Tibetan Buddhists believe that the soul goes through a journey, an illusory journey that seems to manifest itself in "reality". The guru speaks to the soul (via talking to the departed's body), and calms them by saying "Those monsters and demons you see are not real, but are your imagination's way of showing you the evil or ill of your life. Keep going. As terrifying as they are, keep going."

Then eventually the soul has been alone and tormented long enough that the karmic debt is released. The guru encourages the soul to choose wisely its next mortal body, and wishes it well so that it is not born to undue suffering for the next round.

Some sects of Hinduism believe differently, that the rebirth is a reflection of the past life's good or malicious doings. This led to the 'caste' system. Some sects of Buddhism think that reincarnation can go to a non-human form of life...a bug, or a fish, what have you. Others say that a spirit that is of the human essence/spark of the Divine remains a human.

Once a human, always a human (which is my belief).

My teacher is clairvoyant, and walks both sides of the veil freely. She has been to 'heaven,' there she saw Jesus, but she remarked that when a soul arrives there, the 'religious figures' they revered in life are the ones they meet up with. There are angels and non-angel spirit guides with us all the time, hovering, awaiting our instructions. We all have them, there are no exceptions. They are content being ignored, but eager to take action.

Look, I have believed/suspected this idea since I was a preteen. No one had taught it to me. It just came to me as I pondered who I was, why I was here, and experienced a sort of self-awareness that transcends an 11-year old girl's body. I've been seeking ever since, and I am confident with my understanding of these things, but not to the point of ignoring other possibilities.

reply to post by wildtimes


They believed matter was evil, so they couldn't accept Jesus as a physical being. They were the original heretics that the gospels warned about.

I was raised in western culture but by heritage I am from the east. The way karma is practically applied in India is a disgrace. People are not as warm or friendly as they are in Christian nations. If you suffer it is your karma, not someones responsibility to love you as his neighbor. In any case the Vedanta speaks against idolatry and Hinduism as practiced in the East is not Vedantic. It, as taught by modern religious men, is sort of similar to Judaism: ritualistic purity rather than purity of heart and mind as Jesus teaches. Fatalism is a concept I cannot accept.

Here is a spot on article about Zen

Enlightenment sounds snazzy, but it is gnostic in that it teaches the key to salvation is knowledge and not necessarily by following God's ways. It leads people to believe God's ways allows one to walk towards salvation rather than being the source of salvation.

reply to post by 547000


Amen.

Jesus surviving the crucifixion is a lie that has been spread by muslims and others with anti-Christian beliefs.

Go and read some reports of muslims who were visited by Jesus, and realized the mistake of all the lies they believed.

"Jesus, He IS God!"

"Issa is the greatest of all the prophets!"

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

So what is your explanation then?

For what? I've explained that to you every time you've made that false claim about me, what EXACTLY do you need me to explain again?

That we are all predestined and faith is no way to avert our fate?

No, it's our choice to trust in Christ or not. We have free will. Our behavior MATTERS! But not for salvation, that's merit-free based on God's grace and Christ's work at Calvary and resurrection. Christians do face judgment from the lord Himself just prior to the marriage supper. Rewards (crowns) are given for faithfulness to Him, and they can be lost for unfaithfulness or good works done not to glorify Him. (Wood, stubble, or hay)

Some people are predetermined to do good works and others are doomed, finding it impossible to do good works?

It's the motive. Is a person doing good works because they are trying to improve their report card for judgment day? Then they are doing good works to glorify themselves. Is the person doing the good works by following the leading of the Holy Spirit, which are works done not to glorify oneself before God, but to glorify God before the world? And done out of a humble joy and heart of thankfulness for what God has already done for us in Christ?

The Holy Spirit regenerates and infills a believer at the time of conversion. Then that Spirit "washes and cleanses" us from all our unrighteousness. if we listen to Him, and follow Him instead of temptations. We still have flesh. When you live by the Spirit you cannot sin, when you live by the law of love you cannot sin. When you listen to the flesh, you fail. But the good news is the way you used to be you no longer desire to do those things. What you used to lust after and enjoy doing, you hate now and never do again. That's being DELIVERED from the bondage of sin and repenting.

I did not realize you reversed your former position about free grace.

Grace is free. Wages are merit-based. That's exactly what grace means, receiving that which we do not deserve from God.

Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by wildtimes

 

They believed matter was evil, so they couldn't accept Jesus as a physical being. They were the original heretics that the gospels warned about.

I was raised in western culture but by heritage I am from the east. The way karma is practically applied in India is a disgrace. People are not as warm or friendly as they are in Christian nations. If you suffer it is your karma, not someones responsibility to love you as his neighbor. In any case the Vedanta speaks against idolatry and Hinduism as practiced in the East is not Vedantic. It, as taught by modern religious men, is sort of similar to Judaism: ritualistic purity rather than purity of heart and mind as Jesus teaches. Fatalism is a concept I cannot accept.

Here is a spot on article about Zen

Enlightenment sounds snazzy, but it is gnostic in that it teaches the key to salvation is knowledge and not necessarily by following God's ways. It leads people to believe God's ways allows one to walk towards salvation rather than being the source of salvation.

It's called "Doecitism". The believed all matter in the universe was evil and created by a demon called the Demiruge. And anything spirit or spiritual was good and created by god. Therefore, they thought that Jesus only appeared human, example He didn't leave any footprints in the sand.

The Christians, and the Gnostics don't even have the same Jesus, they deny he came in the flesh. What did John say about the spirit that would deny Christ Jesus came in the flesh??? I can't quite remember, maybe you can help me??

reply to post by NOTurTypical

The Holy Spirit regenerates and infills a believer at the time of conversion.

Does "conversion" happen right now, in this lifetime, like yesterday, if you first believed yesterday?
So if you believed yesterday, then today and tomorrow, you will live completely without sin?
Do you do this yourself, since you label yourself as "saved"?
According to what you wrote yesterday, if someone sins then that shows they were not "saved" and will go to hell. Are you going to hell?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

The Holy Spirit regenerates and infills a believer at the time of conversion.

Does "conversion" happen right now, in this lifetime, like yesterday, if you first believed yesterday?

Conversion happens when the person hears and believes the gospel.

So if you believed yesterday, then today and tomorrow, you will live completely without sin?

Yes, if you heed to the leading and guidance of the Holy Spirit. If you live by the law of love. if you act, think or refuse to act at any time without the Spirit that is sin.

Do you do this yourself, since you label yourself as "saved"?

Do you do what yourself? Live without sin, or believe? One cannot live without sin if they don't have the Holy Spirit, they are bound and a slave to sin in an unregenerate state. And I'm from the camp that also thinks that belief itself is a work of God. One can't say to the Holy Spirit: "Thanks for regenerating me, thanks for leading me to Christ, and enabling me to believe the gospel, but I think i got it from here on out, I can manage my sin by myself."

That's silly. Paul even mocks the idea that we can somehow begin in the Spirit and complete the work in the flesh.

According to what you wrote yesterday, if someone sins then that shows they were not "saved" and will go to hell. Are you going to hell?

You are claiming I said if someone "sins" singular, no, I said if someone lives in sin, meaning continual, unrepentant, unconvicted sin. Christians still makes mistakes after conversion (Paul addressing Peter's sin), but we are no longer a slave to sin. Sin becomes the exception in our life, not the norm.

The presence of the Holy Spirit is a believer's life is the "surety" of our inheritance in Christ Jesus and as adopted sons of God.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

That wasn't me, someone else told JM "no one was reading what he said".

I apologize. It wasn't you; and I retract what I said.

When people are asking questions to get clarification and those questions go unanswered, and then accused of lying, it offends me because it has been done to me as well, and was completely unfounded, because I am not a liar.

Misperceptions around the religious and/or spiritual beliefs of others are made all too easily, and the subject matter is too enormous to digest without help. Those who have studied more aspects of it, in more depth than I, are the people I want to hear from. For this reason, I find people who are less "flippant" to be more credible and respectable.

WTS, I get frustrated when others are condesending, and to get back to the topic,
I think scorpion's question is legitimate and STILL has not been answered, except with loud proclamations backed by little substance.

Can someone PLEASE give evidence of the crucifixion having been clearly delineated at the time of its occurence as a sin sacrifice? Not NT references back to "The Lamb of god symbolism" poetically added later.

I am still not clear on the answer.
I also would still like to hear about the Synoptic Gospels debate and how it stands regarding the crucifixion.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I said if someone lives in sin, meaning continual, unrepentant, unconvicted sin.

What you have said before (on earlier threads) was that someone can live like this description (from you, in the above post, to "heed to the leading and guidance of the Holy Spirit") for an undetermined amount of time, long enough to have this "surety" (you also just mentioned above), then they can draw away from the spirit and go into a life worse that they had before they believed (similar to the description of someone who will not be saved, in the part of your above post which I quoted at the top of this post), and never repent to the day they die, and still go to heaven.

Also, you mention if we have a thought not produced by the spirit then we are sinning. Do you ever have thoughts that do not come from the spirit, just ordinary thoughts that are produced in your own brain?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I said if someone lives in sin, meaning continual, unrepentant, unconvicted sin.

What you have said before (on earlier threads) was that someone can live like this description (from you, in the above post, to "heed to the leading and guidance of the Holy Spirit") for an undetermined amount of time, long enough to have this "surety" (you also just mentioned above), then they can draw away from the spirit and go into a life worse that they had before they believed (similar to the description of someone who will not be saved, in the part of your above post which I quoted at the top of this post), and never repent to the day they die, and still go to heaven.

I've also clarified that if that person does such, that means they were never saved to begin with, it became manifest that they were not "sheep". The Christian cannot live in unrepentant sin, the Holy Spirit will not let them. I've never said "that person will still go to heaven", I said "most likely that person wasn't saved".

Also, you mention if we have a thought not produced by the spirit then we are sinning. Do you ever have thoughts that do not come from the spirit, just ordinary thoughts that are produced in your own brain?

Not necessarily, but we can sin in thought, not just deed or inaction.