Jesus' death... standard Roman execution or sacrifice for sins?

reply to post by charles1952


Hello Charles1952,
I believe, there are some things spoken of directly by God and Jesus... the christian idea that one is redeemed of their sin by believing Jesus died for their sins is not one of them. Instead that doctrine is a construct, made by reading meanings into certain verses.

We need to focus on the verses which give an account of Jesus' arrest, trial and crucifixion. These are importants event in Jesus Christs life.... on which rests the doctrine that "Jesus was crucified for our sins and that believing so redeems one from their sins". So, the verses dealing with the arrest, trial, execution should be considered the most crucial sections of the New Testament by anyone studying the doctrine of the "sin sacrifice".

You will notice that the verses regarding Jesus' arrest and crucifixion reads more like a "courtroom drama" (for lack of a better word). There's nothing in those critical verses that suggests it was the "sin-sacrifice" that Christian doctrine teaches about. But yet, Christianity has composed a new doctrine by stitching together various verses that it was indeed the "sin sacrifice", that redeems people if they believe so. One needs to read the verses for what they are and avoid reading new meanings into it, by muddling the matter with unrelated verses, especially ones written by Paul.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I've also clarified that if that person does such, that means they were never saved to begin with . . .
. . .Not necessarily, but we can sin in thought, not just deed or inaction.

So nothing in you earlier post today is true.
There is no such thing as a "surety".
And there is no such thing as living without sin.
According to your own words.
So how are people really saved, since you nullified your description?

ETA: maybe what I am getting at is how can you call yourself "saved"?
There really is no way to make a determination like that about yourself.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I've also clarified that if that person does such, that means they were never saved to begin with . . .
. . .Not necessarily, but we can sin in thought, not just deed or inaction.

So nothing in you earlier post today is true.
There is no such thing as a "surety".

The Bible says the Holy Spirit is our "surety", that's basically like a down payment of our inheritance in Christ.

And there is no such thing as living without sin.

Without the Holy Spirit a person cannot live without sin, they are a slave to sin.

According to your own words.
So how are people really saved, since you nullified your description?

The same way we all are, by grace through faith. He died for us, we place our trust in Him as our Savior and we acknowledge His Lordship. And His Spirit changes us, 'washes us", and the things we used to enjoy that were sins we no longer enjoy doing and don't do them again. He saves, we thank Him and serve Him after that with humble joy.

ETA: maybe what I am getting at is how can you call yourself "saved"?

Because Jesus' work was completed on the cross. He became sin so that in Him we become the righteousness of God. He took our sins upon Himself died for us.

There really is no way to make a determination like that about yourself.

Then you don't believe the NT. We are told what is the assurance of our salvation, it's Christ. It's what He did.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

The Bible says the Holy Spirit is our "surety", that's basically like a down payment of our inheritance in Christ.

This is a misapplication of Ephesians 1:13,14.

And when you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation) – when you believed in Christ – you were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit, who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.

For a reference I will give page 258 in: Justification and Variegated Nomism: The Paradoxes of Paul, Carson, D. A. The theme of the referenced book has to do with inclusion in a covenantal relationship, where the comparison is between how it operated in the Old Testament system, and how it operates in the New Testament system and deciding on if it happens in generally the same sort of way in regards to consideration of Grace versus Law and works.

In this particular essay, the author (Peter T. O'Brien) is using the letter to the Ephesians as an example of how this plays out. Like I mentioned yesterday, the Jews had a pretty good understanding of the nature of their relationship with God, that goes back to the calling of Abraham from the city of Ur.
The Christians did not have that sort of well boundaried understanding of the nature of their covenantal relationship with God, so it had to be explained to them. Here the writer of Ephesians is saying "here is the evidence of the . . ", and he uses the term 'inheritance', which corresponds to how the Jews understood their relationship. So he is telling the reader that you are like what the Jews were in their nationhood, but you are a different sort of nation and where Israel had the Shekhinah with them above the tent of assembly, they had the Holy Spirit, as the evidence of their relationship.
The writer of Ephesians goes on in verse 15 to describe what this sign of the Holy Spirit among them is.

For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints,

as a note: O'Brien does not say all that, but this is the general idea that I get from the book and he brings up those verses within that context and I threw in my own interpretation.

reply to post by jmdewey60


And? It still says in the beginning of that verse that the Holy Spirit is given when the gospel is first heard and believed, that's when He indwells the believer. Not after they believe, then spend an undisclosed amount of time cleaning themselves up by their own effort.

"Okay Jesus, I don't cuss or chew or smoke weed or masturbate anymore, you can send the Holy Spirit to indwell me."

I don't think so, it doesn't work that way. He comes and indwells at the moment of belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ. In fact, it takes a work of the Holy Spirit in your heart to even believe the gospel. Go look at 1 Corinthians 6:11 again, that tells the order, first of our Justification in Christ, then Sanctification by the Spirit.

"And when you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation) – when you believed in Christ – you were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit"

reply to post by NOTurTypical

. . . that's when He indwells the believer . . .

it is not a discourse on the individual's personal experience
it is about the community

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


It is not the crucifixion that takes away sins of the world, it is the resurrection.

The New Testament in fewer than 100 words:

Everyone sins. You need to be forgiven. God forgives you, and he did so from before you were born. God is love, when you love the Holy Spirit lives in you. If you know love you know the Spirit. God sent his son to teach you this. God proved this by the resurrection.

The good news. You sinned, you are forgiven, and the son has been resurrected to prove this. If you can believe this, turn away from your life of sin the Holy Spirit will become the guiding force inside you. The Kingdom of heaven within.

Can you believe this?

The basic principle from the Old Testament and the New Testament is that when we sin we become afraid of God, because we fear punishment. The entire Old Testament is about God’s patience. God loves, people follow him, people fall into sin, God forgives and they follow again. The better promise in the New Testament provides one with a way to become free from sin, thus ending the cycle of sin and repentance, where we can live in love and Grace, instead of fear and sin.

For the first 4000 years of man, men had been afraid of God, and Jesus came to say stop being afraid of God you are forgiven. He was telling them that all there sacrifices were pointless because they never stopped sinning. He was proving to them that God was love, and that he had always loved them, his spirit had lived with them and forgave them before they were even born. This was such a radical change in thinking only his resurrection could prove that he was from God. Despite all the miracles all the Apostles fell away and did not have the courage to spread his message until they saw the resurrected Christ.

It was not so much the crucifixion that forgives us but more the resurrection that guarantees our forgiveness. Jesus taught forgiveness and told his Apostles to do likewise. Unfortunately the church today teaches forgiveness with a clause. The clause they teach is far from the truth and cause many to stumble. The only clause is you can’t know for sure you are forgiven if you don’t believe in the 100 word explanation I just gave you.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

And? It still says in the beginning of that verse that the Holy Spirit is given when the gospel is first heard and believed, that's when He indwells the believer. Not after they believe, then spend an undisclosed amount of time cleaning themselves up by their own effort.

"Okay Jesus, I don't cuss or chew or smoke weed or masturbate anymore, you can send the Holy Spirit to indwell me."

I don't think so, it doesn't work that way. He comes and indwells at the moment of belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ. In fact, it takes a work of the Holy Spirit in your heart to even believe the gospel. Go look at 1 Corinthians 6:11 again, that tells the order, first of our Justification in Christ, then Sanctification by the Spirit.

"And when you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation) – when you believed in Christ – you were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit"

edit on 14-2-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

I think you’re missing one point. God is love, when one chooses to love, the Holy Spirit fills them and they feel Joy. The feeling of Joy that one gets when they do good for others is the Spirit within. You don't have to believe anything to be filled with the spirit; you just have to love your neighbor as yourself by your actions. You see in the Old Testament the kings would be filled with the Spirit but turn and disobey, and the spirit would leave them. This is how the spirit works in the world today. Remember there are many gifts from the Holy Spirit and one is love. It is possible for one to know the gift of love simply because they are following the words written on their heart. Love your neighbor as thyself.

The difference between the believer and unbeliever is the believer can receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit, this is the gift that was not given to those prior to Jesus resurrection. This provides one with an assurance of Heaven and the ability to overcome sin. This ability to overcome sin provides freedom from the chains of this world and allows one to peruse perfection in Christ. Although I don’t believe one truly finds perfection it is the goal we are to set our sights on.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

. . . Go look at 1 Corinthians 6:11 again . . .

That's probably a typo but I will look at this.

Some of you once lived this way. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

This reverses the order of what you just said so I don't think you have a valid point.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

. . . Go look at 1 Corinthians 6:11 again . . .

That's probably a typo but I will look at this.

Some of you once lived this way. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

This reverses the order of what you just said so I don't think you have a valid point.

It wasn't a typo, you were right, I was in error to the order. However, you missed the point that was made. Which is that believers are Justified in His name, and washed and sanctified by His Spirit. (not ourselves)

That's why there is no glory in heaven of ourselves, our salvation is a work of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. NOT of us. The Father sends the Son to die for us while we are yet sinners, enemies of God. We are Justified in the Son's name and because of His atoning death, and we are washed and cleansed from our old natures by the Holy Spirit.

You live in Florida, here is a fishing analogy for you that illustrates this Biblical truth. When does the fisherman clean his fish? Before or after catching them?

reply to post by sacgamer25

You don't have to believe anything to be filled with the spirit; you just have to love your neighbor as yourself by your actions. You see in the Old Testament the kings would be filled with the Spirit but turn and disobey, and the spirit would leave them. This is how the spirit works in the world today.

Actually, raised as a Pharisee that nugget blew Paul's mind, it was a "mystery' he was the first to reveal. He specifically addresses that unlike the Holy Spirit's work in the OT, the Spirit under the New Covenant will remain with the new believer their entire life. The ONLY way to reject the Holy Spirit is by blaspheming Him. So under the New Covenant, not only does He reside with us, but He creates in us a new nature. (Born again) If we're born of the Holy Spirit, we now have a new nature.

We are a "new creature" in Christ Jesus, the old person is dead and buried with Christ. God's goodness leads us to repentance, not our repentance leads to God's goodness.

The difference between the believer and unbeliever is the believer can receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit, this is the gift that was not given to those prior to Jesus resurrection.

It actually wasn't given to indwell believers until Pentecost which was long after the resurrection and even after the ascension. (Acts chapter 2) The Holy Spirit baptizes all believers into the body of Christ. (1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:27) The only way to reject Him is to blaspheme Him. Hebrews detail this. People who once 'tasted' of the Holy Ghost, if they reject Him, (and Christ's work for them by implication), then it's 'impossible" to renew them to repentance. Jesus echoes this as well, saying every manner of sin will be forgiven men except blaspheming the Spirit, it'll never be forgiven men.

This provides one with an assurance of Heaven and the ability to overcome sin. This ability to overcome sin provides freedom from the chains of this world and allows one to peruse perfection in Christ. Although I don’t believe one truly finds perfection it is the goal we are to set our sights on.

Absolutely right, but it's important to highlight we can do nothing without His Holy Spirit. We can do nothing outside of Christ. We cannot live without sin reigning over us without His Spirit infilling and guiding us, it's impossible.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

We are Justified in the Son's name and because of His atoning death, and we are washed and cleansed from our old natures by the Holy Spirit.

You are creating an artificial dichotomy by inventing categories which would otherwise not exist.
First of all you would have to show where the Bible teaches we are justified by Jesus' "atoning blood".
Paul makes two statements:
1) you were washed, you were sanctified
2) you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

In statement number 2, Paul does not separate the actions of the two entities in justification.
They both play a part.

God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--

Romans 2:25 (above) is the closest match to "we are justified by Jesus' atoning blood" used as a search term.
The atonement is given by God to bring us to Him in reconciliation.
The action is through faith, not the blood.
Blood is the object.
By faith in what God was willing to do in Jesus to draw us to Him, we believe he will continue to give us gifts resulting in the ultimate gift, eternal life.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I said "His atoning death". And who does the Justifying, the cleansing, and the sanctifying? Is it us or the Holy Spirit in Christ's name?

I had edited the post you previously responded to, apparently you missed this during the edit process:

You live in Florida, here is a fishing analogy for you that illustrates this Biblical truth. When does the fisherman clean his fish? Before or after catching them?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

When does the fisherman clean his fish? Before or after catching them?

Here's another fishing analogy:

“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was cast into the sea that caught all kinds of fish. When it was full, they pulled it ashore, sat down, and put the good fish into containers and threw the bad away.

There is this theory some religionists have of imparted righteousness that people magically have a personal righteousness just given to them because they believe such a thing is being offered.
That is a theory I do not agree with.
As for the cleansing, I would have to refer back to baptism which I know you hate and don't believe in.

reply to post by jmdewey60

As for the cleansing, I would have to refer back to baptism which I know you hate and don't believe in.

Really? He doesn't? I must be getting confused on who thinks what. I thought NotUr was all about baptism being the born-again drill and imperative along with "confessing" that Christ is the "only way."

reply to post by wildtimes


I'ma repost this question I asked in my second to last post:
I think scorpion's question is legitimate and STILL has not been answered, except with loud proclamations backed by little substance.

Can someone PLEASE give evidence of the crucifixion having been clearly delineated at the time of its occurence as a sin sacrifice? Not NT references back to "The Lamb of god symbolism" poetically added later.

I am still not clear on the answer.
I also would still like to hear about the Synoptic Gospels debate and how it stands regarding the crucifixion.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

When does the fisherman clean his fish? Before or after catching them?

Here's another fishing analogy:

Before or after? It agrees with 1 Corinthians 6:11, the Holy Spirit cleanses and sanctifies us. Which is great, it's much better to let Him lead us, to live by the Spirit and not by our flesh.

“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was cast into the sea that caught all kinds of fish. When it was full, they pulled it ashore, sat down, and put the good fish into containers and threw the bad away.

There is this theory some religionists have of imparted righteousness

No, "religionists" believe their own rules and rituals and works make them special before God. "Redemptionists" believe in imparted righteousness. "Religionists" would be exemplified by the Pharisee who bragged to God about how good he was and how he wasn't bad like the guy beside him. And the "Redeptionist" could not even look up toward God beast his chest and asked for mercy.

Jesus said the latter went away "justified". (Imputed righteousness)

The failed righteousness was the "works" righteousness, the only righteousness was the "gift" righteousness. (Imputed).

that people magically have a personal righteousness just given to them because they believe such a thing is being offered.[

"“Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God IMPUTETH righteousness without works” (Romans 4:6)

"And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was IMPUTED to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be IMPUTED, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead” (Romans 4:22-24)

Righteousness is imputed to us also who believe, Romans 4.

That is a theory I do not agree with.

No, I don't think so Sir. That's actually scripture you do not agree with. Instead of being clay you're trying to be the potter.

As for the cleansing, I would have to refer back to baptism which I know you hate and don't believe in.

You're slandering me, I've never said I hated baptism. Baptism is something all saved people should do. The Holy Spirit doesn't baptize us in water, another brother or sister in Christ does that. The Holy Spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ when He seals and infills us. That's our "spiritual" baptism. We have a water baptism and a spirit baptism.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

As for the cleansing, I would have to refer back to baptism which I know you hate and don't believe in.

Really? He doesn't? I must be getting confused on who thinks what. I thought NotUr was all about baptism being the born-again drill and imperative along with "confessing" that Christ is the "only way."

Not true at all. I said we don't need to be baptized to be saved, baptism is what saved people do. Don't listen to what JM says about me, he misrepresents, (I think purposely) virtually everything I say.

I wonder if Jesus was hung by rope, if that would have been a sacrifice?

I was thinking that when animals were sacrificed, their throats were slit and then they were burned. The aroma pleased their god. I could be wrong though. To me, that is a sacrifice.

I mean, there are different forms of execution which don't shed blood. If any of those were done, would that have been a sacrifice?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Don't listen to what JM says about me

All anyone has to do is look at your signature: "I hate Religion".
Meaning, including what you call religious sacraments.
Things like Baptism and the Eucharist.