Jesus' death... standard Roman execution or sacrifice for sins?

Regarding Jesus' death, the bible gives an account of Jesus being captured and handed over to the Romans to be crucified like a common criminal. This method of crucifixion seemed to be a standard Roman execution procedure, as two criminals were also crucified next to Jesus.

However, it seems Christianity has woven in a "ritualistic" meaning to Jesus' execution, in holding that the crucifixion was to take away the sins of the whole world. Hence, the idea that one can be "saved" by believing that Jesus died for their sins.
Some Christians even compare Jesus execution to the ritual sin-sacrifice of unblemished animals in the Old Testament to conclude that Jesus, being without sin, was the unblemished "sacrifice" to take away the sins of the world.

On one hand, the bibles account of the crucifixion shows that it was a standard Roman execution... the result of people who wanted Jesus dead.
And on the other hand, Christian doctrine maintains that Jesus' execution was a sin-sacrifice, which removes ones sins if they just believe that Jesus died for their sins.

Christian doctrine of the sin sacrifice is not at all rooted in the biblical account of Jesus crucifixion, because at no point did Jesus, (whether before his arrest/during his trial/ on the cross) ever declare he was going to be crucified for the sins of people, and that all who believe so will be "saved". So the idea that he was a sin sacrifice seems to be a later insertion, much after Jesus execution. In other words, there is no connect between what Christians believe about Jesus' sin-sacrifice on the cross and the bible account of the crucifixion.

I've also noticed that the verses used to support this idea of Jesus' sin sacrifice are mainly from sources other than Jesus himself. So, are christians risking taking someone elses word as the truth, just because its bound in the bible and ignoring the fact that Jesus never said anything that even remotely resembles anything about the doctrine of the sin sacrifice.?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


You're opening a nasty can of worms here my friend...

Jesus did take away the sins of the world, but not in the way most think...

He gave us an example on how to be sinless... Thus removing "sin" from those that understand what he was saying...

Not an easy path, but it is truth

Or maybe, it was an 'Illuminati Sacrifice'!

J = 10
E = 5
S = 19
U = 21
S = 19

19+19+21+10+5 = 74

7+4 = 11!

hidden behind we have a prime 'Illuminati' Number,


i believe i have solved the mystery, though, i fail to believe i wasted 2 minutes writing this out,

carry on

reply to post by Akragon


Well, I'm interested in hearing how Jesus execution turned into a ritualistic sin sacrifice as Christianity teaches.

Jesus was arrested, put on trial and killed. At what point did the work of the Roman government turn into a sacrifice to take away the sins of the world?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Wern't the romans pagans who believed in sacrificial offerings?

Im sure you can find many sites that link Christian origins with pagan ritual... among other things...

I mean look at Christmas... Dec 25 is the birth of the son God... and lets not forget the halos

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Dear sk0rpi0n,

You have found the secret, the question that nobody has asked in 2,000 years, how could we not have seen it before? You are retreading questions that have been answered long ago, there is no new thing under the sun. The questions is why are you asking dead questions, you can read books on apologetics and get the answers. What are you trying to prove and to whom? Do you wish to prove to Christians that there is no God, good luck with that. Or are you trying to have someone prove to you that God does exist, can't do that, you would never listen. Let it go, it doesn't matter if it doesn't matter to you. The universe began because nothing existed, rock turned into flesh and gained consciousness and reptilian aliens created humans and control us through a multiverse and soon we will all have a great awakening where we understand that we are god. Pick any part you like and go with it if it makes you happy. Peace.
'

reply to post by Akragon

Not an easy path, but it is truth

How so?
As far as all evidence goes the bible is only fiction so how can it be true?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


I honestly don't know , I wasn't there .....

MY hypothesis .. that is parallels Siddhartha Gautama ; ...a great person ...leader ..ahead of his time , and ideas perverted into a religion, after being persecuted ....

Because all great thinkers are feared and condemned at first....

reply to post by AQuestion

The questions is why are you asking dead questions, you can read books on apologetics and get the answers. What are you trying to prove and to whom? Do you wish to prove to Christians that there is no God, good luck with that.

I am not trying to prove anything to anyone.
Im just exploring how christian doctrine is different from Jesus' words and teaching. I just wanted to have a discussion on this subject going.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n
Do you count anything said as from Jesus in the book of Revelation ? peace

Originally posted by TheCommentator
reply to post by Akragon

 

Not an easy path, but it is truth

How so?
As far as all evidence goes the bible is only fiction so how can it be true?

You're looking at the wrong parts then...

I've found when most people say "i've read the bible"... they litterally start from the beginning... usually by the time they read a few books they stop reading for "insite" and start reading... for the sake of reading. By the time they get to the important parts, they just want to get through the book... This of course is an assumption but i believe its pretty correct... Others don't bother and just believe what others "preach"... which is the case for most "church goers"...

The centeral character in the book is Jesus... The truth, the life, and the way...... IF you read what HE taught, its impossible to deny... it IS truth...

When one strays outside his word... things get confusing... As you can clearly see by the shear number of different "flavors" of christianity

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Then I kindly bow out. Peace.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


The whole crucifixion story is your basic Hermetic Allegory....Basically it's encoding a method of meditative practice which can transcend the two normal states of consciousness (regular consciousness, and unconscious sleeping) and reach a third state of consciousness (A transcendent state....a collective unconsciousness...Christ consciousness...call it what you will). The 3 states symbolically represented by the many 3's in the story, as it is also represented elsewhere in the Bible. Jesus was crucified on Golgotha, which means "the place of the skull" or in other words the human mind. He's crucified on a cross, which is a representation of the coming together of opposites..(horizontal and vertical lines....some gnostic texts refer to having to reach the 'center' of the cross...or where they meet..representing the act of meditation). Jesus is killed by 'five wounds'....Which represents the five senses being 'killed' in the act of meditation...

He is ressurected from a cave (another obvious symbol of the darkness of turning from the outside world and placing ones attention inward). Later on many artists depicted Jesus as a sort of union of opposites...in the sense that he has long hair and somewhat feminine features...as well as a manly beard. Again this is symbolic for the union of the two opposites of conscious and unconsciousness during the act of meditation.....Etc. etc...I could go on for quite a while.

reply to post by Akragon

You're looking at the wrong parts then...

I am not referring to specific parts, just the general fact that the entire bible is fiction.

IF you read what HE taught, its impossible to deny... it IS truth...

How does this give any credibility to the bible? I could write a story about a magical bean that said nice stuff but that doesn’t make this bean true. In a sense you are admitting that your religion is the same as any movie or book with a good moral.

eta: How do you explain all Jesus's failed prophecies then?

reply to post by TheCommentator

I am not referring to specific parts, just the general fact that the entire bible is fiction.

I am refering to specific parts...

And how do you know its fiction?

How does this give any credibility to the bible? I could write a story about a magical bean that said nice stuff but that doesn’t make this bean true.

It depends on what kind of truth you're looking for...

In a sense you are admitting that your religion is the same as any movie or book with a good moral.

I have no religion my friend... So theres nothing to admit aside from truth...

How do you explain all Jesus's failed prophecies then?

I don't concern myself with "prohecies"... The future does not exist.... nor does the past...

reply to post by TheCommentator

I am not referring to specific parts, just the general fact thatI am not referring to specific parts, just the general fact that the entire bible is fiction

The OP is about a certain event in the bible, and is directed towards certain people who believe certain things regarding that event.

If you have concluded that "the entire bible is fiction", then fine. But then there really isn't anything left for you to discuss, is there.
Or are we supposed to first prove that the bible is real, before addressing the specific points made in the OP?

reply to post by Akragon

Wern't the romans pagans who believed in sacrificial offerings?

Im sure you can find many sites that link Christian origins with pagan ritual... among other things...

I mean look at Christmas... Dec 25 is the birth of the son God... and lets not forget the halos

I believe that the non-semitic Romans who handled christianity in its earlier periods, adulterated the original message.

Today, many christians are aware that traditions such as Dec 25, Easter etc. are pagan in origin and reject it. Unfortunately, they all stop short of exploring the possibility of doctrines such as sin-sacrifice etc. as having been influenced by pagans.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


The message is still there... its just muddled by the rest of the book...

You say you believe his words but then ignore his words as a pack of lies because it talks about sin and doesn't agree with the Qu'ran. He told his disciples he would be put to death and he did it willingly, even during the crucifixion he said "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me" so that people would recognize his death was recorded in the OT. and then after his resurrection he told them to make disciples in all nations.

reply to post by 547000

You say you believe his words but then ignore his words as a pack of lies because it talks about sin and doesn't agree with the Qu'ran.

What words am I ignoring exactly?

He told his disciples he would be put to death and he did it willingly

Yes, but thats not the same as Jesus telling them that his execution was actually a sin sacrifice, and that whoever believed Jesus died for their sins will be "Saved". At no point did he ever say that.

His capture and execution was Roman law at work, not a ritual sacrifice to God... who would never ask for a human sacrifice.