Exclusive: Marines Nazi-Flag Whistleblower Comes Forward

reply to post by Qemyst

Shapes can't talk. They don't say "Hey, I'm ONLY to be used by the Nazi's! You can't use me for something else!" It's PEOPLE who give symbolism and meaning to these shapes, not the shapes themselves.

Exactly.

And as PROBABLY everyone knows, including those marines, is that the 'SS' symbol is associated with a lot of negative feeling and emotions.

That makes the use of this symbol even more despicable.

reply to post by Qemyst

If someone wants to associate the Nazi stigma to it, and claim it is a Nazi symbol, then it is of their own doing. If someone wants to say the shape stands for Scout Sniper, then, that is what it stands for to them.

You know damn well this symbol has a 'nazi-feel' to it.
It has nothing to do with people attributing these meanings to that symbol themselves.

Are your really surprised about the uproar this caused?
I showed my grandpa this picture, he fought and lost friends in world war 2.

He allmost exploded.
But that's because he should't have given meaning to the symbol, right?

If the Scout Sniper team KNEW the SS symbol was also used to symbolize Nazism in the past, then they have guts, but shouldn't catch any career ending trouble for it

Lol at the guts statement.
This has nothing to do with guts.
This is plain stupidity.

And imho if they knew the symbol like you said, they should be fired.
We don't need people with nazi ideology in the army.
Or even people who associate them selves with nazi ideology and symbology.

Originally posted by kn0wh0w
reply to post by Qemyst

 

Shapes can't talk. They don't say "Hey, I'm ONLY to be used by the Nazi's! You can't use me for something else!" It's PEOPLE who give symbolism and meaning to these shapes, not the shapes themselves.

Exactly.

And as PROBABLY everyone knows, including those marines, is that the 'SS' symbol is associated with a lot of negative feeling and emotions.

That makes the use of this symbol even more despicable.

If someone decides that they need to associate the shape with negative feeling and emotions, that's of their own doing if the person SHOWING the symbol knows that it means something else to them.

Like if I wore a shirt with a big swastika on it and people got offended, it would be 100% their fault for associating it with Nazis. I happen to know it means Eternity to me. Nothing despicable about that.

If my name was "Simon Sawyer" and I wore a shirt with my initials on it in a big cool looking lightning bolt shaped "SS" letters, and someone got offended, it would totally be their fault for associating my initials with something negative to them. I happen to know that the symbol stands for "Simon Sawyer". Nothing despicable about that.

reply to post by Qemyst


No, i disagree.

It would tell a lot about you and your mindset though.

And it's not the people who are offended that attribute a different meaning to the symbol, it's you.

Can you remeber the thread about a skycraper that was going to be built that looked an awfull lot like the WTC exploding.

Is that also ok?

Ill try to find the thread for you.

I remember the outcry from a lot of people.

Furthermore there's a little thing called common sense.

If you feel that cam you walk around in a shirt with a swastika because it means 'eternity'.

Don't be mad when someone busts your face in for being a 'nazi'

Originally posted by kn0wh0w
You know damn well this symbol has a 'nazi-feel' to it.

No, I don't. I know that is 2 stylized letters.
Chevy uses "SS" on their cars. It's also used many other places.
I'm offended by Nazi's and their despicable nature as much as the next guy, but i'm also not so narrow minded that I will say that someone using "SS" in stylized sig letters are Nazi's, or are trying to offend anyone.

Originally posted by kn0wh0w
It has nothing to do with people attributing these meanings to that symbol themselves.

Yes, it does. Like I said in my prior post. The Swastika was a symbol used well before the Nazi's ever existed, but now a swastika makes pretty much most people think of Nazi's. It is the Buddhist symbol for Eternity,
in Hinduism it is a symbolic representation of Ganesha... I could go on.
The fact is, it's a shape that different people assign different symbolism to. The Nazi's took it and gave it their own symbolism. The "SS" is no different.

Originally posted by kn0wh0w
Are your really surprised about the uproar this caused?

No, I'm not, because I know how simple and emotional humans can be.

Originally posted by kn0wh0w
But that's because he should't have given meaning to the symbol, right?

He can give the symbol whatever meaning he wants. He chose to associate it with Nazism, and not the words "Scout Sniper".

Originally posted by kn0wh0w
Lol at the guts statement.
This has nothing to do with guts.
This is plain stupidity.

Maybe they WERE stupid, and had no idea it was used as a Nazi symbol. Nothing wrong with being stupid, last I checked.

Originally posted by kn0wh0w
And imho if they knew the symbol like you said, they should be fired.
We don't need people with nazi ideology in the army.
Or even people who associate them selves with nazi ideology and symbology.

I can't say that the guys aren't all full blown Nazis, and were KNOWINGLY using it because they are full blown Nazis.
I'm guessing they probably weren't, however, and that the flag simply stood for "Scout Sniper".
In the case that it DOES stand for Scout Sniper, I don't see much wrong with it, since it the SCOUT SNIPERS were assigning that symbolism to it, and nothing to do with Nazism.
Sorta similar to how a swastika can mean "Eternity" depending on who is assigning symbolism to it.
These snipers were probably doing the same thing. That's not something anyone should be fired over. If I was into Buddhism I wouldn't want someone to ruin my livelihood and my job because I wore a swastika shirt when it meant "Eternity" in my religion and in my beliefs. Seems pretty lame and silly to wish someone else to lose their jobs over something they probably think is just fine.

Originally posted by kn0wh0w
Can you remeber the thread about a skycraper that was going to be built that looked an awfull lot like the WTC exploding.

Is that also ok?

Absolutely. It's not harming Americans. If Americans choose to look at the tower and get all emotional, that's their fault. The guy who designed the tower said something along the lines of "Oh.. I just thought it was a cool design and that it would work well for yadda-yadda-yadda" He was innocent, and simply thought he had designed a good building. There's nothing wrong with that.

Originally posted by kn0wh0w
If you feel that cam you walk around in a shirt with a swastika because it means 'eternity'.

Don't be mad when someone busts your face in for being a 'nazi'

I'd sue, and win. I was representing my religious beliefs, which is perfectly legal. Also, it's perfectly legal to wear a swastika in America.

The problem in that situation would be the guy who punched me. He was unable to get to know me, and to get to know that I was a peaceful Buddhist. He instead acted like an emotional hot-head and punched me in the face.

He would be the one at fault.

reply to post by Qemyst


If you use the swastika then go ahead. It is a very old symbol and has it's meaning way before ww2. If you draw it tilted, in a white circle on a red flag then heil to you...

reply to post by Qemyst

Originally posted by kn0wh0w Can you remeber the thread about a skycraper that was going to be built that looked an awfull lot like the WTC exploding. Is that also ok?

Absolutely. It's not harming Americans. If Americans choose to look at the tower and get all emotional, that's their fault. The guy who designed the tower said something along the lines of "Oh.. I just thought it was a cool design and that it would work well for yadda-yadda-yadda" He was innocent, and simply thought he had designed a good building. There's nothing wrong with that.

so you don´t understand why some American would be mad about this?



also after reading your replies, it's all about YOU and what YOU make of the symbols.

well let me tell you a little secret here...

you're NOT alone in this world.

if you want to hide behind 'but it's my religion' argument all the time, that's perfectly fine.

i just think you fail to see WHY some would be upset by certain things. (like the swastika, SS or twin towers concept)

Originally posted by PsykoOps
reply to post by Qemyst

 

If you use the swastika then go ahead. It is a very old symbol and has it's meaning way before ww2. If you draw it tilted, in a white circle on a red flag then heil to you...

Correct. It's WAY older.
And yes, the 45 degree tilted swastika in a white circle on a red flag is the Nazi official flag.

However, they didn't always use 45 degree tilted swastikas, and most people still wouldn't care enough to think "Hey, maybe the swastika means something OTHER than Nazism." before acting like a hot-head and getting all emotional about it and wrongly punching me in the face.

One could even argue that the Nazi "SS" sig runes were actually oblique when used by the Nazi's. The "SS" flag the soldiers have do not depict an oblique "SS".

Shruggg...
I just think people get way too bent out of shape over it all.

reply to post by Qemyst

Shruggg... I just think people get way too bent out of shape over it all.

i think you're failing to see exactly WHY the people are 'beending this out of shape'.

i for one am not denying that the swastika was a symbol before the Nazi's started to use it.

what i'm trying to get across is.

no matter what the symbol means to you.

WW2 has made sure the swastika is associated with negative feelings and emotions.

when you feel you should be able to wear a shirt with a swastika, that's all dandy and fine.

but don't be mad when people get upset because you're wearing a shirt that depicts a symbol associated with a lot of pain, bloodshed an grief.

sure the symbol used to mean otherwise but to a lot of people nowadays it doesn't.

if you feel to see that and would still wear that swastika shirt.

again... don't be mad when someone busts your face in.

you can sue him all you want for assaulting you.

but while you're at it, you might want to sue yourself for being a selfish twat.

Originally posted by kn0wh0w
so you don´t understand why some American would be mad about this?

Sure I see why someone would get mad about it. Because they would look at it and immediately go "wow that looks like twin towers" and get mad, instead of going "wow, that looks like twin towers. I wonder why they chose that design. Let me go research it a bit to find out why."

Then, after researching it, they might go "Oh, I see the reason behind the design. The way they are connected would add stability and add more room as well. Golly, that's pretty smart!"
Even then, they may say "Yeah, it still looks dangerously like the twin towers, but it's not harming anyone and I can see why they chose the design."

Originally posted by kn0wh0w
also after reading your replies, it's all about YOU and what YOU make of the symbols.

Nope, it isn't actually about me at all. It's about how irrational people act without knowing all the facts.

Originally posted by kn0wh0w
well let me tell you a little secret here...

you're NOT alone in this world.

Well aware of that, because... you know.. seeing people in public every day who aren't me.. dead give away.

Originally posted by kn0wh0w
if you want to hide behind 'but it's my religion' argument all the time, that's perfectly fine.

I'm sure that I wouldn't want to hide behind that excuse. If I wanted to express a symbol on my clothes that I believed in, which was a totally peaceful, positive symbol, I would want to be able to do so without having to worry about irrational morons acting on their emotions and "punching me in the face" before actually learning about me and the symbol adorned on me.

Originally posted by kn0wh0w
i just think you fail to see WHY some would be upset by certain things. (like the swastika, SS or twin towers concept)

Nope, I don't fail to see why some would be upset by it at all.
A guy whose family was in concentration camps would be offended, sure. Many other people would be as well. That's their choice. If they refuse to look into why someone wears/shows a symbol, or designs a building then that's their fault. They should first find out the details before jumping to conclusions.

Christians have committed terrible atrocities in their time, but the cross is ok.

Here's something...

"It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised. The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians [i.e. Soviet citizens]; the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese. Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale, though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers—and, in the case of the Japanese, as [forced] prostitutes for front-line troops. If you were a Nazi prisoner of war from Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand or Canada (but not Russia) you faced a 4% chance of not surviving the war; [by comparison] the death rate for Allied POWs held by the Japanese was nearly 30%."

It's publicly accepted for people to wear the Japanese "Rising Sun" headbands and shirts and have Japanese flags. Why is that?
The Russians murdered millions of people, but the Hammer and Sickle is nowhere near as vilified as the Nazi stuff. Why is that?

Why is a swastika, something FAR older than the Nazi's, so bad? Why is this "SS" so bad when it doesn't even have anything to do with Nazism, but more than likely simply stands for "Scout Sniper"?

The "SS" sig symbol on their flag isn's even oblique like the "SS" sig runes on Nazi uniform and insignia.

Shrug.

reply to post by Qemyst

Why is a swastika, something FAR older than the Nazi's, so bad? Why is this "SS" so bad when it doesn't even have anything to do with Nazism, but more than likely simply stands for "Scout Sniper"?

well.

we can bicker over this all we want, we just differ opinions

seeing how this could end up in a neverending match of slinging cr*p at eachother.

i'll just stand by my opinion, you stand by yours.

and look, don't get me wrong..

i truely understand where you're coming from, i can even see the sense in your arguments.

i just disagree with your overall notion that it's the problem of the people who attribute certain meanings to certain symbols.

i still think that the marines who posed with this flag crossed a line.

Originally posted by kn0wh0w
but don't be mad when people get upset because you're wearing a shirt that depicts a symbol associated with a lot of pain, bloodshed an grief.

I won't be mad. They would be because they didn't take the time to understand what it's all about, and 'hot-headedly' jumped to their simple conclusions.

Originally posted by kn0wh0w
sure the symbol used to mean otherwise but to a lot of people nowadays it doesn't.

The swastika still means the same things it has always. It hasn't stopped meaning those things.

Originally posted by kn0wh0w
again... don't be mad when someone busts your face in.

you can sue him all you want for assaulting you.

but while you're at it, you might want to sue yourself for being a selfish twat.

I wouldn't be the selfish one for peacefully displaying my religious symbolism.
Meanwhile, on the other end of my big "sue hammer", someone is sad they acted so brashly, and I am glad they're getting the punishment they deserve.

reply to post by kn0wh0w


I can understand why you have your opinions, and like you said... I simply just disagree with them.

That's the way of the world.

Originally posted by Qemyst
reply to post by kn0wh0w

 

I can understand why you have your opinions, and like you said... I simply just disagree with them.

That's the way of the world.

yeah pretty much

else the world would be a boring place, if everybody just agreed with eachother.

i do want to complement you on the way you take part on discussions.

you kept it nice and civil, i appreciate that.

stuff like this needs to be said, not everybody is like this.

props

reply to post by kn0wh0w


I try.
But agreed, thank you for staying civil.

Cheers. I'm going to bed. My insomnia is wearing off.

reply to post by kn0wh0w


I think they are taking this too seriously.

I was never in the military (because of my asthma), but I know how young men behave, and I know that, even if you don't know or don't care about what some symbol represents, many people like to use symbols just because of the way they look (that's why some people use foreign characters, either in clothes or tattoos, for which they do not know the meaning).

Another thing I know is that the Nazi regime was supported by a very good propaganda machine, including many designs of symbols and objects that were very good, even for today's standards.

Having said all that, I also know that there are many people that get offended (and with good reasons) when they see that symbol (that's why Kiss use a different logo in Germany), but in this case the symbol was not supposed to be shown to the public (as far as I understand it), so I think they are just making too much out of nothing.

Never mind how some of you think this is just a symbol and it doesn't mean a lot.
People out in the world feel offended by this.
And honestly: If I was stopped by ten guys with SS-symbols and big guns, I would not feel very well either.

All in all this attitude tells the world simply, how ignorant those guys are. Since most people in the world think that the average US American is ignorant and uneducated, such things only proof this cliché.

If you don't care about it - okay. But then don't complain about the bad image of the USA in the world.

Originally posted by kn0wh0w
i just disagree with your overall notion that it's the problem of the people who attribute certain meanings to certain symbols.

I agree with Qemyst's notion, and one of the reasons is that the people that get offended by the meaning they attribute to a symbol should remember that they are not alone in this world and what they think is not what all other people think.

reply to post by ArMaP

I agree with Qemyst's notion, and one of the reasons is that the people that get offended by the meaning they attribute to a symbol should remember that they are not alone in this world and what they think is not what all other people think

i again bef to differ.

sure the swastika is an ancient symbol, coming from hinduism if i´m correct.

but what´s more likely.

that the populace today will remember the symbol for what it once was.

or will the populace link the symbol to nazi-germany?

seeing as WW2 is pretty recent i think 8/10 people will link to symbol to nazi-germany and their ideologies.

i'm not saying it's right or wrong either way.

it's just the way it is.

after you've taken all this into account and you decide you're still going to wear (for example: a t-shirt with a swastika)

don't be mad when people are offended by your use of the symbols.

when the swastika means 'eternity' to you, doesn't mean your neighbour thinks the same.

i think ALL of us should sometimes just take step back and think what our actions would do with other people's emotions and feelings.

that's all i'm trying to say.

(DAMN, i really need to brush up on my English)
(i know exactly what i want to say, but i don't know exactly how :lol

that's why my replies look like a friggin book