I used to be a believer...

Originally posted by gortex
reply to post by thesearchfortruth

 

post by thesearchfortruth
But I think UFO's could simply be top secret military aircraft. Is there any evidence against this theory?

Only that UFOs have been seen and reported since before we could fly .

The Japanese are also credited with having undertaken the first organised inquiry into the UFO phenomenon which they viewed with considerable alarm. The Japanese believed that the appearance of these objects heralded the coming of serious events and disasters! In 1235 therefore, General Yoritsume ordered a scientific investigation of these bizarre sightings! He and his men had watched mysterious lights swirling around their encampment and were desperate for answers!
www.space-2001.net...

edit on 4-2-2012 by gortex because: Edit to add

I understand your point, gortex, but I think it is possible that ancient people could have simply been witnessing unknown natural phenomena.

In the case of the Japanese that you mentioned, the word "swirling" could be a mistranslation or even an exaggeration by the original author. Perhaps they were witnessing something like ball lightning or some other similar phenomenon unknown to them. I'm not saying ball lightning is a good explanation; I'm just saying that there could be some sort of natural explanation.

Anecdotal stories like this -- albeit interesting ones -- are not enough to convince me that these people were seeing artificially constructed flying craft.

reply to post by SonoftheSun


Thanks for clearing that up, I lack the dedication to learn another language.

What I was trying to say in this thread was that I don't know how far government aircraft have advanced. I don't know if a UFO hovering silently, and then zipping away at a high rate of speed is beyond our capabilities or not. I think what I was trying to get at was the "what if", you talked about.


I really don't know weather ET's are visiting. I want to believe.

I don't think anyone will know until disclosure, or until the aliens land on the white house lawn.

I will keep researching this subject. I will read everything I can.

But I'm not going to jump to any conclusions.

Secret black projects are the last bastion for debunkers. When nothing else can explain away a sighting, the old standby of secret government aircraft or project is used. I think this is a ridiculous premise for many reasons, including I don't believe they would ever test these over public land (it's why they have huge areas of desert available to test in - and they actively do, such as stealth bombers in Nevada), and certainly not over enemy or foreign soil. They have created diversions and created poor cover-up stories (at least until they decided dead silence was the way to go). And many of these craft have exhibited maneuvars, abilities, speeds, etc., which I don't believe for a minute we have yet discovered, no matter what people try to make you believe.

For example - the huge craft that have exhibited much faster speeds and manuevarsthan any blimp could attain. I don't think people fully appreciate the amount of energy that would be required to keep such a thing aloft, let alone silent, or reach the speeds they do.

So the proof really, is common sense - if you choose to believe we'd test where all the sightings occur, and have obtained technology we've never seen in commercial or wartime use (why we would develop and then never use the stuff is quite baffling), then I guess you may never believe they are anything than government aircraft. I think quite a few sightings probably are just that. But I don't think for a moment they all are. There are plenty of cases where government craft simply doesn't fit.

Originally posted by fleabit
Secret black projects are the last bastion for debunkers. When nothing else can explain away a sighting, the old standby of secret government aircraft or project is used....

The same could be said about some believers and "alien craft". When nothing else can [easily] explain away a sighting, some people seem to jump to the "alien" conclusion -- as in: "If we haven't come up with an explanation for a sighting, then it must be an alien craft".

I'm not 100% against the possibility that alien craft are visiting the earth, but if there is no evidence that a particular sighting is aliens, I'm not sure why some people go with that explanation.

Why does 'no explanation known to ATS members' necessarily equate to aliens for some people?
What's wrong with saying "I don't know what that was"?

Why does 'not easily explained' necessarily equate to aliens for some people?
What's wrong with saying "I don't know what that was"?

Well, I think alien visitation makese the most sense to some people. If it's clearly technology, it becomes pretty straightforward. Does it exhibit physics, abilities, maneuvars etc., that none of the world powers that could afford to research and design such a thing, currently do not have? If so, then what is it? If it's not "ours," then what's left? Time travelers? Dimentional beings? Of anything left, alien visitation acually seems the most likely.

I guess it comes down to wether or not you believe any government has ever or currently has developed aircraft with the displayed abilities in some sightings. I don't think so, not for a minute. Not only in the past where it was even more clear their abilities in the air outstripped our own (in the 40, 50s, etc), but even today, where some of the huge craft are seen flightly silently and moving away quickly. We can't do that yet. It is magnitudes beyond anything we have ever developed. If any of those sightings (many with multiple witnesses in different cities on the same night) are true, then it's not explainable by current research. The power required to keep something of that size up, silent, and moving at the speeds reported, simply doens't exist for us yet. They had a show where they asked rocket scientists and physicists exactly how much power would be required to keep a craft that size aloft. The answer was.. well beyond anything we have, and it's not even close.

So I guess you have to ask if these witnesses are just wrong. If you believe eyewitness testimony has merit, and that they were fairly accurate in their reports... well, common sense dictates that if it's technology.. and we don't have the ability to create such things yet.. what else could it be?

Originally posted by SonoftheSun
I don't have a link for the ATSLive Walton interview though.

Do you mean this?

Originally posted by fleabit
For example - the huge craft that have exhibited much faster speeds and manuevarsthan any blimp could attain. I don't think people fully appreciate the amount of energy that would be required to keep such a thing aloft, let alone silent, or reach the speeds they do.

The amount of energy needed, if I'm not mistaken, as nothing to do with the size but with the mass, and as we do not know it's mass we cannot really know if they need huge amounts of energy or not.

The most extreme example would be something like a 3D hologram floating in the air; as its just light, it can be moved without the need for huge amounts of energy.

PS: I'm not saying that UFOs are holograms, I was just trying to point that, when we do not know what we are looking at, any thing is possible.

reply to post by ArMaP




Absolutely !!!

ATS LIVE: 28: "Travis Walton Interview"


Thank you ArMap !!!

Originally posted by Aliensun
reply to post by thesearchfortruth

 

Some day, the "history" of UFOs/ETs/Contact will be required teaching in schools. I have no doubt but what it will be an officially approved course that will hide much of the truth about how UFOs came to be known to the masses. I can say that because I was present while the whole thing developed. Of course, I was very young in the first days of the current arrival of the UFO--that would be 1947--but as I grew into my teen years I devoured science fiction and anything I could get my hands on that concerned the flying saucers.

Seriously, it is hilarious how younger people can be very interested in UFOs and ETs and have no concept of how the whole situation has developed over the decades with the bits and pieces that tell a fascinating story of the early attempts to understand what was happening.

Watching current TV shows don't do the UFO history justice. For that reason, I highly recommend that anyone interested in UFOs visit used book stores and buy up the old UFO classics. If nothing else, those old books will be valuable some day.

It seems to me to go without saying that we have developed massless craft that mimic the genuine UFOs. That would have been the top priority of the US and USSR governments once they understood that their enemy was not the ones responsible for the marvelous craft. It took them longer to understand the principles of physics involved and get the craft operational.

For you to be saying now that you think the devices are entirely secret government craft is a bit self-defeating because you must ignore--if you ever knew-a wide swathe of UFO history that concerns early landings with sightings of small entities and the later abduction reports. You must contend that for over half a century these amazing craft were withheld from warfare and commercial use.

Actually, you can fairly well date the triangles coming to term during the mid-1970s. Yes, the shuttle is gone and it is clever to suspect that the triangles and our similar craft will replace it as a space vehicle. That seems a definite truth, yet by your argument, If we had the massless drive units of the flying saucers back in the late 1940s, there is no way we would have so heavily invested in developing rockets, the shuttle and a host of other expensive aircraft since.

Some day the History of how Satan successfully deceived the entirety of mankind into believing that every single historical recording of mankind's interaction with the demonic/angelic realm has really been with aliens from some other corner of the universe will be required teaching in school...

Angels and demons exist, technology resembling what you have been lead to believe are UFO's exist. Aliens from another corner of the universe that have interacted with mankind do not exist.

God Bless,

The amount of energy needed, if I'm not mistaken, as nothing to do with the size but with the mass, and as we do not know it's mass we cannot really know if they need huge amounts of energy or not.

Correct, but I'm going on the assumption that a craft has some mass. If it's not from our neighborhood and thus has no mass because they have developed the technology for super light craft that can move at speed and perform maneuvars, it amounts to the same thing. Blimp tech is not there. Standard blimps move at just over 50 mph, and I am thinking stealth blimps even if they moved double that, are not moving close to the speeds attributed to some huge craft which have been reported.

Originally posted by fleabit
Correct, but I'm going on the assumption that a craft has some mass.

You start by assuming that's a craft.

Also, it may have a mass, but not as big as we think by looking at the volume.

If it's not from our neighborhood and thus has no mass because they have developed the technology for super light craft that can move at speed and perform maneuvars, it amounts to the same thing.

I think you should do that thinking in the opposite direction. Instead of starting by saying "if it's not from our neighborhood", I think it should start as "does it really has a mass? If it has, is it much smaller than we would expect?"

Blimp tech is not there. Standard blimps move at just over 50 mph, and I am thinking stealth blimps even if they moved double that, are not moving close to the speeds attributed to some huge craft which have been reported.

True, and you forgot about one thing (that I also forgot in my first post), even without mass, how would it move all that air in front of it?

I guess the mass problem is still a problem (unless they are really holograms ).

Originally posted by ElohimJD
Some day the History of how Satan successfully deceived the entirety of mankind into believing that every single historical recording of mankind's interaction with the demonic/angelic realm has really been with aliens from some other corner of the universe will be required teaching in school...

I don't see how that's possible, since until 100 years or so ago, most of the literature about human interactions with these creatures were all about angels and demons and the old Zoroastrian belief in personified good versus personified evil. It's not like you're such a genius to have figured this out. That was the standard belief until not too long ago, and many people still believe it.

I love how Christians latching onto an ancient Zoroastrian cosmology think they've just discovered the wheel, when people have been riding the train for thousands of years.

Originally posted by Crystalclearz

Originally posted by pascalt
There are both military and "legit" UFOs. I highly recommend you read the book "Alien Agenda" you will find all the proof you need :-)

What does a book proof....
people can make up great detailed storys


Or is this book written by aliens? ehehehe
:0)

edit on 6-2-2012 by Crystalclearz because: (no reason given)

If you are keen to open your mind and learn more about the topic, grab the book and give it a try. It is well researched and has more than 200 references. It does not prove anything, but nothing will prove anything until your government tell you right? or until you see it with your own eyes... but I love & tend to trust at least some of the things mentionned in this book.

reply to post by thesearchfortruth


why do all these sitings always have the craft showing lights?If I was coming from other planet I would land without lights and in a remote part of USA or world.

reply to post by contact53


Any number of reasons.

It is fun to answer the UFO 'why' questions because we know so little about the subject. I can just make up any old story and no one could prove it wrong. Maybe it's more efficient for the aliens to let the light show, as it's a product of their propulsion system.

I think the question as to the origin of unidentified flying objects is a natural course of events that takes place in every civilization, because we don't have definite answers on the subject is proof enough to me that we as a whole are a very primitive people, despite all of our technology, we are just out of reach, we can almost see a way in which we can answer the puzzling question, but we are currently unable to do so.

I would say the majority of 'sightings' are mis-identified man-made craft or celestial objects. While I do believe E.T. exists in great abundance, I have seen zero evidence linking objects in the sky with beings from another world.

Originally posted by amongus
Sorry "they" got to you.

In the words of the mighty Journey: "Don't Stop, Believing. . ."

That's the problem people rather "Believe" then look for actual facts.

In the 65 years since Roswell there has been no evidence beyond the very circumstantial to support the hypothesis of ET visitation. This is thoroughly disappointing to me, and others like me on the fence.
Incredible claims require incredible evidence and the best we've had in that time is, e.g:
'He said his plane was shadowed, it must've been aliens'
'She said she was abducted by aliens.' and radar returns showing Something was there, not necessarily alien though.
Not really earth shattering, just circumstantial, if far out. Nothing solid, irrifutable, tangible. Not enough to convert most people.

If I said I had dinner with Jesus Christ last night, would my word & 'Jesus woz ere' written on a napkin plus a photo of me and some long haired beardy fella sway most people into believing me? Similar with ET visitation. People who want to believe will, of course, be so much easier to convince.

The military does have advanced black projects, no doubt. How advanced? Not a frigging clue, neither does anybody else. I personally subscribe to the very exotic craft like the TR3B. Statistically it's more likely, Occam's razor n all.

I'm something of a hopeful skeptic, but I don't think we'll see that Disclosure so many of you are waiting on in this lifetime though.
Somebody in an earlier post branded non acceptance of ET visitation to be closed minded, the same could be said of not entertaining alternate possibilities.

I want that incredible, clinching evidence... heck, the whole world does!

Black projects is still a bad excuse for many sightings. Not to mention for the sightings seen over foreign soil. I'm sure some are mistaken identity, but not all. I don't think we have technology even near the level seen and reported on many occasions. Heck, we've seen stuff in 1976 that we still haven't seen to this day.

As far as mass goes - there are some sightings where the size of a craft can be judged fairly accurately. For example (and I don't recall where the sighting was), where the sighted UFO was seen flying between two peaks - from the distance between the peaks, they were able to judge the size with fair accuracy. Or the rancher where the craft filled his entire field of vision. Or in Phoenix where it flew directly over the head of witnesses. As for having a large craft that can overcome air resistance.. well, if they have can get here in the first place, it's not difficult to imagine they could develop technology to deal with such things as air resistance. If you just don't buy eyewitness testimony, that's another matter entirely.

Originally posted by fleabit
If you just don't buy eyewitness testimony, that's another matter entirely.

As a rule I don't tend to; not when we're talking about something as mind boggling as this subject at least.
Human memory being so notoriously unreliable, and getting worse with time being just one factor.
Roswell being the prime example of this; 30 years for the 'official unoffical' take to brew to sweetest perfection so-to-speak.

I read a real demolition of the Betty & Barney Hill case the other day, she supposedly had ulterior motives (don't have link unfortunately). That story did have me very puzzled, particularly her star-map (which turned out to be a best guess among many many stars in our vicinity, rather than uncanny match to a single system).
Didn't stop everybody jumping on the trusty old Zeta Riticuli bandwagon though. But a lot of those with looser morals in ufology, like in many professions 'never let the truth stand in the way of a good story'.

The case which intrigues me the most- by far- is Rendlesham. Regarding that, I just scratch my puzzled head and cry 'WTF'!