I used to be a believer...

Originally posted by thesearchfortruth
But I think UFO's could simply be top secret military aircraft.

Is there any evidence against this theory?

As far as I know it, there isn't any, in the same way there isn't any evidence against UFOs being balloons, Chinese lanterns, weather phenomena, time travellers, extraterrestrial craft, high atmosphere creatures, hallucinations, etc, etc.

I think that one problem with the whole UFO problem is that, by definition, we don't know what they are, so they could be anything, like things that we know but could not identify as such or things that we do not know but that are just different versions of things we know, or really unknown things.

As the identifying capabilities of the observer are what makes a UFO a UFO, the knowledge and familiarity of the observer what the possible explanations must be taken into account, but, unfortunately, it doesn't mean that a specialist in aeroplanes can identify an aeroplane 100% of the times he/she sees one.

I think that to answer your question we should look at cases as independent from each other, and instead of looking for one explanation for UFOs we should look for an explanation for each UFO sighting, as we shouldn't be looking to apply an explanation to all cases, we should try to know the truth in each case.

And remember, always be sceptical of your own opinions.

Originally posted by ladyteeny
i've seen craft myself that have performed manoeuvres that our current understanding of aviation doesn't allow for and i'm from an aviation background.

The problem with that is that the manoeuvres you witnessed could not be explained by your understanding of aviation, so if it was a test for some new man-made method of flying (or a new take on an old method) you could be trying to interpret it with the wrong rules and, obviously, not being able to do it.

PS: As you are from an aviation background, I would like to ask you something: do all manoeuvres done by birds and insects follow our understanding of aviation, or do they follow their own rules?

There is evidence to support the existence of aliens and alien spacecraft (it would help if someone had the time to create a thread documenting it). I believe tests done on the Roswell crash debris came back as "not being from earth..." and didn't a scientist from Russia recently say there was some form of activity on Venus? NASA have also pretty much confirmed that life may have once existed on Mars. Information is starting to appear gradually, we may not know the truth even in our life time.

Originally posted by thesearchfortruth
reply to post by redrezo

 

JAL 1628? Bentwaters?

What about these cases.

Please tell me what about these cases is so impressive and unexplainable? What about the performance of the UFO's in these cases tells you they are not top secret military aircraft?

I am a truth seeker. I do have an open mind. I do WANT to believe.

The evidence simply isn't there. Please, I would welcome it if you could prove me wrong.

Here you go.

ABSTRACT A synthesis is presented of data concerning Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs) reported during the past 20 years through governmental, press and private channels. The serious evidence is clarified and analyzed. The data are reported by categories of specially trained observers and studied by patterns of appearance, performance and periodic recurrence. During the process of selecting the most reliable and significant reports, emphasis was placed on the qualifications of the observer and on cases involving two or more observers. This resulted in 746 reports being selected, after consideration of over 5000 signed reports and many hundreds of reports from newspapers and other publications. An overall look is taken at the UFO problem: The historical development of the mystery, Congressional attitudes and activity, consideration of the problems and dangers involved, and discussion of what is needed in the way of organized scientific research. Evidence is presented in support of the hypothesis that UFOs are under intelligent control, making plausible the notion that some of them might be of extraterrestrial origin.

Take some time to go through this. Interesting stuff. For me, something about the phenomenon as it existed in the 1940s and 1950s just doesn't mesh with the idea of secret military craft. I've had trouble coming up with a valid explanation for why secret devices would be brandished so blatantly before the public for several decades.

You know, I think our perceptions of "aliens" are misconstrued. I mean, if you think about it, our images of what "they" are uniquely come from movies, media and all things propaganda. I personally think the word "alien" is now waaaaay to over indulged; associated with "grey" "green" "short" "skinny" "bug eyed" "mind reading" creatures. You know, that was what the movies in the 40's were saying aliens looked liked. So, my opinion is that nope. The TRUTH is way funkier than that.

I relate the phenomena ( although its not much of a phenomena anymore, people capture, document, collect and create very well thought out factual data and thesis to support it) is relative to something like string theory.
String theory tells us the universe is layer upon layer of dimension, all ever expanding at every angle. One string follows a straight line, but in relation to other strings, it does not.
Now, one string has no "sense" of another string, but they are ever connected, layered on top of each other.
Our concept, and verbal description of time, is just that...OUR CONCEPT. The human species. I mean, we only use, what 4%of our brain at this point in evolution?
Much more to unfold.

I think there are multidimensional levels, and that/(those) existence is like a living organism. It is malleable, therefore. When I see videos of certain "craft" they seem, in my perception, to be "co-existent" with the surroundings. Thus, no noise, no background distortion. Physically joined with the surroundings, but obviously not. So it makes me think about matter--the relation of us to it, and the evolution of species within it.
Yes, I think other planetary species have ventured here, as we will eventually, but i think there is something much more intricate and delicate for that matter, that is occurring. What me may think of as "inter" dimensional, although that sounds screwy.

I was once convinced that ET has visited earth, but today I consider myself an "agnostic". The more I read on the subject, however, the more I realized I knew nothing at all.

Like the OP, I too really, REALLY want to believe that ET has been here, but until the much needed "extraordinary evidence" for this "extraordinary possibility" surfaces, I must admit to myself that I just don't know for sure.

Mysteries are intriguing to me, and I assume most members of ATS are intrigued by them as well. Now that I think about it, ATS is a community relies on mysteries to exist in order to flourish. Without mysteries there just wouldn't be much to talk about.

Whether it's investigating/researching the origins of the pyramids, or searching for proof of ET contact, it is the hunt for truth that keeps me interested. I'd love to know 100% that ET is visiting, but even such a truth would unveil new mysteries. At the end of the day, it's a win/win for me.

reply to post by thesearchfortruth


Hey TSFT.. looking for the truth are you.. we all are.
Now, based on my previous events.. no guessing for me.. many reasons to know otherwise..
From the time I was around 9-10 years old... seen alot. Factor in that I'm 57. No change of insight.
Can't change your way of thought, unless you were there.
How often do we really look up... and awake at night to do so? Then factor in during the day..

Not many.

Jesse

reply to post by SonoftheSun

Surely, if you've been a believer and looked into different cases, you have found out that some UFOs out there have properties that we cannot achieve...

I'm sorry, I haven't. Could you please provide some cases demonstrating these properties?

"Edit To Add :

While I'm at it, could you also explain your reply you've made today, and I quote:


"I am convinced that UFOs are not imaginary because of the cases involving physical evidence, radar returns, EM (electro magnetic) effects and multiple witnesses. Flying saucers are real all right, the only question is who's driving them. "

You seem confused. I meant what I said in that post. I believe in Flying Saucers! I just don't know if Aliens are driving them or not.

"And this bugs me:


"Believers and their rediculous "you are close minded" "you are a government disinformation specialist" etc...."



Yet, your title reads:


" I used to be a believer..."

Seeing how you label believers in such a way, I do have a hard time believing you were one. Or perhaps, I'm missing something here... "

I suppose I mispoke. I apologize. I do not think all believers make such claims, just some.

Some where so big that it made our Boeing planes look like tinky toys. Massive objects that hover. Without sound. Just to name a few...

I really want to believe this is beyond our technology, but I'm simply not convinced... Now I'm not any airpane specialist, I really don't know, but I'm still just not convinced this stuff is beyond our current capabilities.

I think I know which cases you are talking about with this, but could you provide links just for clarification.

reply to post by redrezo


I am not a troll. I am not throwing tomatoes. Please stop with such irrelevent descriptions of me.

The 'Top Secret' Aircraft line is one used by many pseudo-skeptics as well as proponents who are looking for naturalistic explanations to fit into a world-view that adhere to modern scientific dogma and the conventional line of thinking that paranormal doesn't, UFO's don't exist and people that think otherwise are crazy.

This was pretty much the only statement you made about the subject, so I will respond to it.


THIS IS WHAT I WANT TO BELIEVE! But so far, no one has come up with any evidence against the theory of top-secret government vehicles!

Please, provide evidence that shows UFO performance beyond our capacity and I will gladly admit I was wrong.

I'm sure some UFO reports are top secret military projects, but how do you account for the classified UFO sighting documents released by the Freedom of Information Act. Documents that are clearly censored and blacked out pertaining to government observed UFO incidents. If UFO's were all military projects these documents wouldn't exist.

You also have to take into account J. Allen Hynek's change of opinion regarding UFO'S.

Hynek's opinions about UFOs began a slow and gradual shift. After examining hundreds of UFO reports over the decades (including some made by credible witnesses, including astronomers, pilots, police officers, and military personnel), Hynek concluded that some reports represented genuine empirical observations. Another shift in Hynek's opinions came after conducting an informal poll of his astronomer colleagues in the early 1950s. Among those he queried was Dr. Clyde Tombaugh, who discovered the dwarf planet Pluto. Of 44 astronomers, five (over 11 percent) had seen aerial objects that they could not account for with established, mainstream science[citation needed]. Most of these astronomers had not widely shared their accounts for fear of ridicule or of damage to their reputations or careers (Tombaugh was an exception, having openly discussed his own UFO sightings[citation needed]). Hynek also noted that this 11% figure was, according to most polls, greater than those in the general public who claimed to have seen UFOs[citation needed]. Furthermore, the astronomers were presumably more knowledgeable about observing and evaluating the skies than the general public, so their observations were arguably more impressive. Hynek was also distressed by what he regarded as the dismissive or arrogant attitude of many mainstream scientists towards UFO reports and witnesses.

Let's also not ignore the many statements from the Apollo and shuttle astronauts.

Originally posted by amongus

Originally posted by thesearchfortruth
reply to post by amongus

 

"Don't Stop, Believing. . ."

I do not wish to believe in something that isn't true.

Keep convincing yourself that "ignorance is bliss". It's ignorant to think that we are the only beings out there.

No offense, but your statement pisses me off. "isn't true". This is almost a trolling thread for stars and flags.

But, to each their own.

Why cant you blind believers learn to read?? He never said that we are only beings out there. He just is SKEPTICAL about our little planet in middle of nowhere being visited by aliens, like any open minded person should be if they have not seen any compelling evidence to the contrary.

I myself doubt that aliens visited earth, but yet at same time i think there is a good chance universe is full of life.

Originally posted by amongus

Originally posted by thesearchfortruth
reply to post by amongus

 

The rest of my post that you seemingly forgot to read explained that I don't dismiss the ET hypothesis. I don't think it definitely 'isn't true'.

I promise you I WANT to believe. But the evidence simply isn't there.

No, I read your post pal. I'm just pissed that because you don't have any physical evidence. . .even though there are millions of personal accounts .. . that you are willing to write it off because of lack of physical evidence. Which there is. .if you look deep enough.

And most of those accounts have natural explanations while the rest are completely inconclusive.

[
Only that UFOs have been seen and reported since before we could fly .

Yes, because you know when the military had access to flying vehicles, right?

errr, if you see an orange, taste its bitterness, feel its rigidity and try to explain that to someone who has never heard of, or seen one, or has access to eat it, before: does your testimony make it inconclusive in its reality? Im confused...

reply to post by ssupp

post by ssupp
Yes, because you know when the military had access to flying vehicles, right?

What
So you think the military could have had aircraft before they were invented , now that's a conspiracy theory in a league of its own

reply to post by thesearchfortruth


Thesearchfortruth,

I also apologize if I have misunderstood what you were saying. But I don't see how this discussion can flourish...

Yet, you did ask for a link and I will recommend a great thread to you. It was made by Scramjet76 and is a very interesting piece...for one who searches. That's the problem I have with this thread. You ask us to provide links and show evidence in something that you very clearly have no intention of looking into seriously, yourself.

If I am wrong, apologies again.

In any case, here's the link:

ATS Giant UFOs Scaling Project!

reply to post by SonoftheSun


Thank you for the link, I will look at the case shortly.

You ask us to provide links and show evidence in something that you very clearly have no intention of looking into seriously, yourself.

Forgive me if I sound rude, I don't intend to, but how do you know what I intend to look at? How do you know what my thoughts are?

I don't think you understand how much I HAVE read about this subject. I have read A LOT.

But thank you for your honest and informative replies, I will be reviewing the case you linked shortly.

There are both military and "legit" UFOs. I highly recommend you read the book "Alien Agenda" you will find all the proof you need :-)

reply to post by thesearchfortruth

Forgive me if I sound rude, I don't intend to, but how do you know what I intend to look at? How do you know what my thoughts are?

That wasn't rude at all !

Sometimes, what I want to say doesn't come out as what I meant. My first language is french and sometimes I get lost in translations...My reply stating that you ask others for links and info gave me the impression that you didn't want to look into it yourself. That is what I meant.

It now appears that I was wrong...again... ...so to be back on topic...

You know, there has never been clear undeniable proof that ETs have and are visiting us. But there is a lot of evidence pointing to it.

Someone has already mentioned the Betty & Barney Hill case. I'd also like to mention Travis Walton.

There was a good thread in 2010 where Mr Walton was called a liar. Walton then joined ATS to reply, in thread. And then accepted to be interviewed on ATSLive by the ATS crew.

Worth a read ! And a listen !

Travis Walton (Moment Of Truth) Proof, Hes A Liar!!

I don't have a link for the ATSLive Walton interview though.

There is one thing I do understand about the extraterrestrial phenomena. No matter the evidence, no matter the witnesses, no matter the abductees, no matter the alleged cover ups, no matter the government presumed knowledge and denial, no matter the research by Hynek, Vallee, Good, Stanton and so on, it will always be a one big "What if?"...until they (who ever they are) decide to land everywhere in massive fleets, world wide.

Anything less will always leave room for denial and speculation.

Originally posted by pascalt
There are both military and "legit" UFOs. I highly recommend you read the book "Alien Agenda" you will find all the proof you need :-)

What does a book proof....
people can make up great detailed storys


Or is this book written by aliens? ehehehe
:0)