Why my mind is closing towards Capitalism

reply to post by AwakeinNM


I love that analogy on beer since it makes money seem like the main thing that matters in life, well for you at least. Happiness is much better then money, rest assured.

I think it's easy to say how socialism has failed in the past because it never really was socialism. The government leaders aren't suppose to have more money.

Capitalism also is bound to fail, except of course if it's regulated! Then, wasn't capitalism based on free markets?
Oh gee, well that doesn't work, doh. Not to mention how it's a system that feeds on scarcity and exploitation.

The OP is right, we NEED change.
I'm all in for the stark trek way! A world where honor, integrity, exploring, refining of the spirit and the intellect is what life is about.

Originally posted by AwakeinNM
Boy, I got a bug to launch photoshop and make some nice infographics for all of you who loooove socialism.

These graphics are simplified of course - easy to understand. Wealth in these graphics I have represented by how full your beer glass is. Beer = Wealth. Okay?


Here is capitalism in its ideal form (it is not in its ideal form in this country right now. We have crony capitalism/fascism at the moment, and that needs to be changed, quickly. I did not make a graphic for fascism.

Anyway: In this graphic, you have a government that is small, performing the functions spelled out int he constitution, using as little money as practical do do it. Citizens are as well-off as their ambition allows.

Capitalism:

Citizen A paid attention in school, went to college and got a degree and is making a decent living as an Engineer, maybe - like most folks.

Citizen B decided it would be more fun to smoke weed behind the school rather than go to class, so his grades weren't good enough to get into college. He's finally cleaned up his act but he's still only driving a garbage truck because it's been long enough since his last DUI.

Citizen C worked his way through business school and earned an MBA. As an entrepreneur, he started a garbage collection business. Citizen B works for him - unless he falls off the wagon again.

Citizen D went to Art School and is working as a painter. He doesn't make a killing at it, but he loves what he does. This was his choice and he's content with his life. Plus he has a hot artsy-fartsy girlfriend - that always helps a little.

So you see, everyone has the same opportunity (more or less) to make something of themselves. Some are more fortunate, some less in the beginning, but with hard work and ambition, anyone can achieve their goals in life.

This is where your thinking is wrong. The guy running the business is not any more valuable than the guys driving the trucks. If the pay was determined by the desirability of the job, the less desirable job = the most pay, then the guy running the operation, sitting in the AC when he's not sneaking off to the golf course, would make less money than the driver. It is time to stop valuing people on their ability to extract money from other people and actually start weighing their actual contribution to society. A good car salesman would be one who pointed you to the right vehicle instead of one who will hound you for extras you don't need, or the highest possible sales price or the highest interest rate he can get you to accept. The world really sucks under buyer beware.

I don't think that anyone who advocates socialism believes that merit shouldn't be a consideration in people's pay. Thus the beer glass crap is just bs propaganda. With 5 glasses it would be more like 40,45,50,55,60 weighting. They believe that people who give the most value to society should earn more. They believe those that put in the effort should be able to live confortable lives. They believe that everyone is expected to contribute in whatever way they can. Thus you wouldn't be supporting a bunch of deadbeats like is always insinuated. For example: Inventors would get a base pay and bonuses based on their discoveries. Factory workers would have still incentive to produce. Bill Gates would still be a multi-multi-millionaire, but not a billionaire. they believe any changeover would give credit where past credit is due, meaning Bill Gates would still enjoy his grand lifestyle, albeit with a few less homes, etc. I do not think it wise to let anyone dominate so many of the resources we all fight over.

Bottom line is that we have to legislate against greed so we can start moving forward as a society. If you are not with society, then you are against it. It won't take long to find out who is who, once it is all put in motion. There are some freshly prepared FEMA camps for you folks.

reply to post by thehoneycomb

TextFor these reasons we call for social ownership and democratic control of productive resources, for a guarantee to all of the right to participate in societal production, and to a fair share of society's product, in accordance with individual needs.

Sounds good to me.

Hey op, and everyone.
I think that you`d like the book "23 things they don't tell you about capitalism". I ran into it today, and saw your thread by chance. look it up in youtube, i think there's an audio version.

and yeah, too much sweet talk and "free market will fix it" on the internets nowadays.

Originally posted by petrus4
The psychopaths will never allow equality in fact, however, because they psychologically need elitism, which is its' opposite. They simply try and call the system that they offer egalitarian, so that non-psychopaths, who want equality, will accept them.

I'm right down with you!!
I've made a thread in the past blaming elitism for so many of the world's problems.

Originally posted by METACOMET
Do humanity a favor. When forming your world view, don't ignore the principle of individual freedom.

I'm not, believe me. Truthfully, if it wasn't for the population being what it is at this point, I'd want to live entirely alone. Unfortunately, that no longer seems possible, given how overcrowded the world is becoming. So I have begun to think that what I perhaps need to do is find a positive group of people, at least if I can.

reply to post by sligtlyskeptical

Text Bottom line is that we have to legislate against greed so we can start moving forward as a society.

Who could argue with that?

reply to post by theubermensch


I meant you have to actually click on the links on the bottom of the page and actually read through them.

If that sounds good to you, I guess you support abortions at the expense of tax payers. I guess you support Feminism and you support labor unions in prisons.

Originally posted by Sachyriel

Originally posted by AwakeinNM

I'd rather not risk it, than you very much.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

- Benjamin Franklin.

If you risk nothing for liberty and prefer your favored status quo as security, what do you need any liberty for?

edit on 1-2-2012 by Sachyriel because: nyeh nyeh

I'd rather not risk socialism, dude. Don't post my quotes out of context and spin my words. As for taking a risk for liberty, I have a lot of gear saved up for that occasion, it it ever goes down. So don't lecture me about liberty.

Originally posted by AwakeinNM
So I guess your answer is to usher in socialism and hope that the head honcho doesn't go batsht crazy

Who says in socialism you can't ask to change your government?

Socialism doesn't come with dictatorship in a bundle.

Originally posted by AwakeinNM
So how does it happen that the psychopaths usually end up running things?

Because normal people don't want to control or be controlled.
Normal people have enough self esteem without having to step on others heads.

There is nothing hypothetical about China or the Soviet Union - look into their history.

If anything, the IDEAL socialism - the one that is sold by people like Obama - is the hypothetical. Notice they never really come out and say what it is they want to achieve? Why is that? If it's so great, why don't they just say it... "We want a socialist country". They can't say it because socialism is the LAST thing we want to move toward.

I think he can't come out and say it because the media has convinced everyone what a terrible word it is. I think everyone agrees that a more utopian economic structure would be beneficial. there main argument against is that it won't work. i think it will work once people are educated to exactly what it means instead of being scared off by beer glasses.

Originally posted by theubermensch
reply to post by sligtlyskeptical

 

Text Bottom line is that we have to legislate against greed so we can start moving forward as a society.

Who could argue with that?

That's right - legislate everything. Legislate against greed, against hate, against oil, against thinking this way or that way about this that or the other thing. Legislate morality or the lack of it. Legislate legislate.

Do you even hear yourself when you try to think?

Legislating does not eradicate. You cannot make human nature illegal.

Here's an example scenario to illustrate your point: Mayor Bloomberg is fed up with the rat epidemic in New York City. The citizens of NY are calling for action. So, mayor B signs legislation banning rats from New York City.

There! All the rats are magically gone, right?

Use your head.

Originally posted by thehoneycomb
If that sounds good to you, I guess you support abortions at the expense of tax payers.

Oh yeah, like an unwanted child doesn't cost more in the long run to tax payers than a simple abortion.

Fail.

Guess you're stuck paying anyway, poor you, I hope it doesn't destroy your liberty!

Originally posted by sligtlyskeptical

There is nothing hypothetical about China or the Soviet Union - look into their history.

If anything, the IDEAL socialism - the one that is sold by people like Obama - is the hypothetical. Notice they never really come out and say what it is they want to achieve? Why is that? If it's so great, why don't they just say it... "We want a socialist country". They can't say it because socialism is the LAST thing we want to move toward.

I think he can't come out and say it because the media has convinced everyone what a terrible word it is. I think everyone agrees that a more utopian economic structure would be beneficial. there main argument against is that it won't work. i think it will work once people are educated to exactly what it means instead of being scared off by beer glasses.

I think it WON'T work. I KNOW it won't. Look at the power concentrated in Washington and Wall Street right NOW. Do you actually think that politicians and bankers and heads of industry are going to suddenly step aside and turn over their power to the people under socialism?

I don't know what you're smoking, but I don't want any of it.

Originally posted by fuchow
Hey op, and everyone.
I think that you`d like the book "23 things they don't tell you about capitalism". I ran into it today, and saw your thread by chance. look it up in youtube, i think there's an audio version.

and yeah, too much sweet talk and "free market will fix it" on the internets nowadays.

You can spin anything in your favor if you're a good enough BS artist.

Not buying it.

Originally posted by AwakeinNM
Legislating does not eradicate. You cannot make human nature illegal.

Well actually, society as done pretty much that.

A lot of things we do and don't do because it's socially accepted or not. Greed might be in some of the human nature but we can evolve pass that and, yes, regulate it.

Making sex in public and greed at the expense of others are not fine ways to act socially, I don't see no problem to put an end and evolve pass it.

Originally posted by AwakeinNM
I have a lot of gear saved up for that occasion, it it ever goes down. So don't lecture me about liberty.

If what goes down? What are you waiting for, it seems to me the moment passed over a decade ago.

reply to post by thehoneycomb

TextI guess you support abortions at the expense of tax payers

Not exactly. I prefer a libertarian socailism. But if someone is raped or is too poor to pay for an abortion then yes I do feel that society has a responsibility to meet their needs.

TextI guess you support Feminism

Yes but only to the point that women are treated as equals. To be honest most femanazi's make me sick. In socialism there is no need for charity or 'affirmative action' type programs becauase everyone is treated fairly and equally.

Textyou support labor unions in prisons

I think that prisoners should have rights yes.

But to chip away at minor issues like this isnt a good argument against socialism. Capitalism has many issues.

Originally posted by AwakeinNM
Do you actually think that politicians and bankers and heads of industry are going to suddenly step aside and turn over their power to the people under socialism?

Of course not? And why not?

BECAUSE THEY ARE MAKING A KILLING FLEECING YOU THROUGH "CAPTIALISM".

They dont want the proles to have any of the wealth or power. Look at the root of the word "socialism". Social. Meaning lots of people. A system that helps ALL the people, not just some.

Capitalism is legalized looting. So why are you fighting to help them?

Originally posted by AwakeinNM
There! All the rats are magically gone, right?

Use your head.

No the rats are not magically gone. But now businesses and slumlords will be forced to take care of the problem that affects all the cities residents (through spreading disease and dirtiness).

Why didnt the slumlords and businesses do anyhting before? Because it was too expensive, and it didnt bother them in their nice houses and apts out of the city...ie they were TOO GREEDY. So in this case, legislation against greed was necessary.

Use your head.