A few questions for those who believe that UFO's are manned by interstellar fairing aliens.

Originally posted by neformore
You are judging aliens by your standards, and yet the very nature of the word alien in this case implies something/someone not of this earth and therefore you are attempting to compare apples to coal - a tactic used by people who seek to debunk without actually thinking the whole issue through.

That yes... and with a chip on the shoulder for any idea not in line with that standard

Originally posted by Aliensun
Arther C. Clarke wrote, "That any significantly advance technology is indistinguishable from magic." Of course, a scientist today, doesn't believe in magic so he must dismiss for a variety of reasons those things that appear to be so, or he must accept that what is witnessed is "significantly advanced technology." But to go there with a scientific mind can destroy that mind with a condition best described as NIH (Not Invented Here) syndrome. Professional humility is not a word that many scientist can accept. Denial is sooo convenient and government approves.

Clarke felt strongly enough that this is ture because he made three laws about it. My favorite is the first

"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong." and I think that one applies in this case

The second law is also very true...
"The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible."

but how many times in history have stodgy old scientists sitting on boards destroyed any new member that had a radical idea? And how many major new discoveries have been made by those very new thinkers who dared to push the envelope?

The worlds worst skeptics are the very people who;s minds should be on the forefront of new ideas, but they are more concerned about tenure

Originally posted by MathematicalPhysicist
And this is why the UFO community will never be taken seriously. Any attempt to ask valid questioning of the scientific laws these UFO's naturally obey is hand-waved by the UFO"logists" with such nonsensical explanations such as "antigravity". Plasma critters? That is definitely a new one I'm going to be adding to the list.

You might consider making a broader survey of science outside of your own expertise(?)

“Bohm, a leading expert in twentieth century plasma physics, observed in amazement that once electrons were in plasma, they stopped behaving like individuals and started behaving as if they were a part of a larger and interconnected whole. Although the individual movements of each electron appeared to be random, vast numbers of electrons were able to produce collective effects that were surprisingly well organized and appeared to behave like a life form.

The plasma constantly regenerated itself and enclosed impurities in a wall in the same way that a biological organism, like the unicellular amoeba, might encase a foreign substance in a cyst. So amazed was Bohm by these life-like qualities that he later remarked that he frequently had the impression that the electron sea was ‘alive’ and that plasma possessed some of the traits of living things. The debate on the existence of plasma-based life forms has been going on for more than 20 years ever since some models showed that plasma can mimic the functions of a primitive cell.”

“An international scientific team has discovered that under the right conditions, particles of inorganic dust can become organized into helical structures which can interact with each other in ways that are usually associated with organic life. Using a computer model of molecular dynamics, V.N. Tsytovich and his colleagues of the Russian Academy of Science showed that particles in plasma can undergo self-organization as electric charges become separated and the plasma becomes polarizedÉ.

Tsytovich’s computer simulations suggest that in the gravity-free environment of space, the plasma particles will bead together to form string-like filaments which will then twist into helical strands resembling DNA that are electrically charged and are attracted to each other.”

“He adds that the ionized conditions needed to form these helical structures are common in outer space. If that is so, then it will mean that plasma life forms are the most common life form in the universe, given that plasma makes up more than 99% of our universe which is almost everywhere ionized.
www.mysterious-america.net...

The following is a PDF from the British MOD that attributes many sightings to plasma phenomena. Agreed they disregard any intelligence behind these "Plasmas" although they admit that they can sometimes 'appear' intelligent.

MOD Aerial Phenomena (PDF)

To make matters more interesting: Plasma might also be the answer to the ET side as well!

Professor Designs Plasma Driven UFO

Originally posted by MathematicalPhysicist
3. An alien civilization capable of travelling to the stars has most likely mastered the physics of optics, and have cloaking technology at their disposal. Not only that, but they have also most likely mastered nanotechnology and the many other scientific areas that we have yet to even begin to slightly understand. In practice, would it not be feasible to have unmanned, cloaked aircraft that are very small but sufficient enough to serve the purpose of spying on humans?

Well we already have nanotech cloaking albeit its still mostly classified (though a portion of the patent is in public domain) but cloaking devices are use by those seeking to hide. If they were all hiding there would not be tons of UFO sightings to debate. Oddly enough the Plasma Critters can 'cloak' in a way... they just 'shift' to infrared and become effectively invisible to our eyes... hence the 'suddenly disappearing' part

Now I wonder what exotic propulsion this thing uses? This was taken in 1986 from the Shuttle window

Can I just point out a very interesting pattern in the OP?

Question 1 - speaks to the technological limitations of ETs
Question 2 - speaks to the technological limitations of ETs
Question 3 - starts by assuming the technological prowess of ETs

Do you get my drift? If ETs are advanced enough to overcome the issues with true cloaking, why is it not possible that they have found ways to overcome the issues with the science in your first two questions?

BTW, perhaps you reacted so poorly to the concept of anti-gravity because it is too simplistic. In my opinion these ships don't just shoot anti-gravity rays at the ground to counteract the Earth's gravity. They manipulate and traverse gravity waves. Have you ever seen a bird riding an updraft? The concept is not that dissimilar.

Also, we have not yet crossed the stars, so I can say with complete certainty that we do not know 'without a doubt' as you state - what is required for interstellar travel. We know what would be required without a technological breakthrough, since most people assume that interstellar travel is actually impossible without a technological breakthrough the whole thing is kinda moot.

Which brings me back to my first point. Your questions (at least the first 2) seem to assume that ETs have experienced no scientific breakthrough. Your third question then assumes a massive scientific breakthrough. I would recommend applying the logic of the third question to the first two.

Originally posted by MathematicalPhysicist
1. Many people have claimed that UFO's can accelerate 90 degrees relative to their position and other maneuvers that contradict the underlying physical principles of current propulsion technology. What many scientists have concluded is that such aerial maneuvering can create gravitational forces so great (hundreds of times that of Earth) and would flatten any living creature like a pancake. Your take on this?
2. To cross the vast distances of the stars, it is known without a doubt that any engine that is used would need to be extremely vast and thus requires a huge star ship. Most UFO reportings are of objects from as small as 3 m across to a one mile. Such machinery is not capable of achieving the high speeds required to cover the astronomical distances in a feasibly short time, and any advanced civilization capable of travelling to the stars would not waste such high amounts of energy or a long time to just spy on humans. Your take on this?
3. An alien civilization capable of travelling to the stars has most likely mastered the physics of optics, and have cloaking technology at their disposal. Not only that, but they have also most likely mastered nanotechnology and the many other scientific areas that we have yet to even begin to slightly understand. In practice, would it not be feasible to have unmanned, cloaked aircraft that are very small but sufficient enough to serve the purpose of spying on humans?

1, If i said imagine a circle disk, With the disk came multiple engines around the whole ship a circle of engines each with thrusters, If i pressed forward the engines at the back will push forward,Then i pressed right and the engines on my left push me right, I press left and the engines on the right push me that way, So i have a stick infront of me every time i push this stick an engine thrust is put into place if i dont touch the stick i hover. Would this explain some monouvers performed?

An easy way to witness this would be to light a gas hob, imagine the hob as a craft you sit in the middle of with a stick controll, like a computer stick and no matter what direction you push an engine is there to power you without a brake in thrust? the fastest public known object is the X-15 which flew at mach 6.7 back in 1968, Imagine the data and possibilty than craft alone produced? Low and behold it didnt fly again and we dont have anything publicly near it but we know that it is possible. Aslong as you can control you inviroment anything is possbile, Heat holding blocks are light and extremily usefull in this matter, along with hugely powerfull engines using certain secret maybe modified elements and you pretty much have a chance of a super powerfull craft that is more aerodynamic than a plane and 100 times lighter with fuel that is no doubt highly explosive somewhat nuclear almost.

2nd, Most if not all of the craft we see are "UFO" but are not from another planet" there our own projects that are not to be released untill 100s of years ,If they publicly released such things the whole world will be wanting what is next, They'ed be no advantage for building it. Every country will be trying to find another habbitable planet and living there, Not only that but it is a way of searching for the truth in a quicker fashion rather than everybody moving along at the same time. As for the power problem it will be down to a element un-used in everyday life.

3rd, we have projection, would it be asking to much to project what is above the object onto the bottom effectivly making an object in the sky miles high invisable? Explains why so many pilots see these objects more often than folk on the ground, This would be due to level of hight and or above the object?. As for nanotech well its all about building up in layers so rather than building out we build up which saves space while adding it, Feel free to add all the data and tech you need onto/into anything you like, So in actual fact we have the ability to make such a craft of some sort with these been publicy known, Now image the stuff they have learned througt doing this for what....60 years almost of everyday testing and knowledge ect without been interupted?

I know where i stand with the UFO agender, Its when i see adnormal shapes and thinking back to magic carpets and that kind of achient history that folk believe anything can fly aslong as its ............... Well thats the point we dont know how or what. They are 2 diffrent things intirely. We know that adnormal shapes have flown and being recoverd so either way somebody somewere has the ability and knowledge on how this is achieved, If we found how while doing the projects i spoke about before or if it was recoverd either way we have the abililty non the less.

Im sorry if my spelling is incorrect it isnt a subject im great at but id like to hear feedback from my post thank you . i hope it helps to some extent.

Originally posted by OzTiger
I think you have answered your own questions. Any Aliens visiting this planet would have technology way beyond our wildest imagination.
1. UFO's, imo, would have to be 'unmanned' or the occupants not subject to the same laws of physics that we humans are.

Although gravity still remains one of the big mysteries in physics, it is pretty well understood on an elementary level at this point. The gravitational forces are enough to flatten any living being, which can only lead us to conclude that either these space-ships are unmanned or manned by beings that are either purely mechanical or are both mechanical and organic, which conflicts with many in the UFO community who claim these beings are purely organic.

Originally posted by OzTiger2. They must have discovered the secret of 'wormhole' theory and beyond.

Possible but improbable. We have yet to observe any wormholes in space or recreate them in the laboratory. At this point in time, they only exist in mathematics and some scientists and mathematicians even believe they just do not exist. If a civilization is capable of producing and travelling through wormholes (two equally impressive feats), they would truly have no reason to spy on a civilization as primitive as ours. They are as advanced to us as we are advanced to fish.

Originally posted by OzTiger3. Considering the satellite technology we have (where we can see a postage stamp sized object from outer space) then would they need to come anywhere near the Earth's orbit to 'spy' on us? Surely their technology would be that far advanced they could observe us from the comfort of their space ship in another galaxy.

My point exactly. A civilization that can generate wormholes at will most likely has the technology to monitor and spy on us from observatories on their planet, rather than embarking on spaceships and doing it in a very inefficient manner (spying on us).

Originally posted by OzTigerGood thought-provoking post.

That was my intent. Glad you find it thought provoking.

Question #4: Given the large astronomical distances that would separate us from aliens, when aliens embark on a journey to Earth, wouldn't hundreds or thousands of years pass on their home-planet by the time it takes for a one-way trip? The relativistic kinematics equations tell us the aliens aboard the star-ships would experience time dilation, so they are unaffected, but what about those on their home-planet? In essence, all of their colleagues and friends/family they knew will most likely be long dead and there is no guarantee that their civilization would even exist over such long time intervals. Why would an advanced civilization risk and compromise all of that just to spy on humans for a few seconds?

This would only make sense if they were all migrating off of their home planet.

reply to post by MathematicalPhysicist


Hence the thought of closer habitable planets or wormhole travel, May even (if possible) they could go into the past say how ever long the trip will take and take the trip and when they arrive its the next day, That would be a solution to the problem which you would wish for if you wanted to time travel that far wouldnt it? .

reply to post by MathematicalPhysicist


Hence the thought of closer habitable planets or wormhole travel, May even (if possible) they could go into the past say how ever long the trip will take and take the trip and when they arrive its the next day, That would be a solution to the problem which you would wish for if you wanted to travel in small time scales that far wouldnt it? .


sorry for the double entry, Not sure how this happend.

reply to post by MathematicalPhysicist


Maybe they've been settled here with us for a long time? Maybe they were here before us?

1. Many people have claimed that UFO's can accelerate 90 degrees relative to their position and other maneuvers that contradict the underlying physical principles of current propulsion technology. What many scientists have concluded is that such aerial maneuvering can create gravitational forces so great (hundreds of times that of Earth) and would flatten any living creature like a pancake. Your take on this?

2. To cross the vast distances of the stars, it is known without a doubt that any engine that is used would need to be extremely vast and thus requires a huge star ship. Most UFO reportings are of objects from as small as 3 m across to a one mile. Such machinery is not capable of achieving the high speeds required to cover the astronomical distances in a feasibly short time, and any advanced civilization capable of travelling to the stars would not waste such high amounts of energy or a long time to just spy on humans. Your take on this?
3. An alien civilization capable of travelling to the stars has most likely mastered the physics of optics, and have cloaking technology at their disposal. Not only that, but they have also most likely mastered nanotechnology and the many other scientific areas that we have yet to even begin to slightly understand. In practice, would it not be feasible to have unmanned, cloaked aircraft that are very small but sufficient enough to serve the purpose of spying on humans?

I'll come up with more questions as the thread progresses.

Is it possible that aliens have solved these problems and that it is currently beyond our current scientific understanding?

These are good speculative questions but the logic is flawed as far as disproving or being an argument against anything. How could you logically deduce what technology they possess or even what their intensions are?

The flawed logic being "if they are an advanced alien race shouldn't they be able to cloak? Since they are visible, they can not be an advanced alien race and therefore do not exist"

Originally posted by TheStev
Can I just point out a very interesting pattern in the OP?

Question 1 - speaks to the technological limitations of ETs
Question 2 - speaks to the technological limitations of ETs
Question 3 - starts by assuming the technological prowess of ETs

Do you get my drift? If ETs are advanced enough to overcome the issues with true cloaking, why is it not possible that they have found ways to overcome the issues with the science in your first two questions?

Which is the logical way to approach the topic. Sure, we may not even have a strong understanding of some aspects of the natural world (gravity, for instance), however many of the theories and laws that are well established in physics have been tested throughout the years and are consistent with natural world. We are not going to throw away all of that just to appease some people who claim to have seen something but cannot reproduce it in the laboratory.

Originally posted by TheStevBTW, perhaps you reacted so poorly to the concept of anti-gravity because it is too simplistic. In my opinion these ships don't just shoot anti-gravity rays at the ground to counteract the Earth's gravity. They manipulate and traverse gravity waves. Have you ever seen a bird riding an updraft? The concept is not that dissimilar.

The problem I have with this "anti-gravity" concept is that it is proposed by people who don't even understand the advanced mathematics of gravity. Much of gravity remains a mystery to even the top mathematical and theoretical physicists. Hell, all I even know about gravity thus far is what I've learned in my undergraduate general relativity and applied topology classes, and that's not much. Do you even know what a gravity wave is? I'm not trying to insult you, but the context you use it in seems to imply that you are clueless about its physical meaning.

Originally posted by TheStevAlso, we have not yet crossed the stars, so I can say with complete certainty that we do not know 'without a doubt' as you state - what is required for interstellar travel. We know what would be required without a technological breakthrough, since most people assume that interstellar travel is actually impossible without a technological breakthrough the whole thing is kinda moot.

Actually, we have a very good idea. The energy requirements, without a doubt, are astronomical regardless of what mode of transportation you use (engines or wormholes). To simply use up entire planet's worth of resources to spy on a primitive civilization is impractical and very foolish to expect of an advanced civilization.

Originally posted by MathematicalPhysicist
To simply use up entire planet's worth of resources to spy on a primitive civilization is impractical and very foolish to expect of an advanced civilization.

Pardon my cheek but why did you ask such a daft question in the first place then?

Most UFO/alien "believers" don't think the visiting spacemen came all the way from zeta wotsit to stick a bb up our noses and then fly all the way back home.

Using human logic and our present day understanding of the "laws of the universe" will most certainly place us FAR short of even beginning to understand what a truly advanced civilization might have at their disposal. It is not a stretch to think that of all the galaxies, and stars and planets in the universe that one civilization has persisted for, lets say a billion years. The technology would be incomprehensible to us in my opinion, and that is likely a massive understatement.

We really have no idea "what" the universe "is", how it was created, if it has boundaries, or if it is boundless, if there are more than one, etc, etc, etc. Given those facts, how can we begin to pretend that we can, in any way, narrow down the OPs questions to something even resembling "educated" guesses?

Even if we are so generous to call our own collective knowledge "on the right track", it is a track that is being constantly altered, dismantled, rebuilt, and sometimes completely turned upside down by new discoveries. And one must acknowledge the possibility that our own collective knowledge may have a couple important assumptions COMPLETELY incorrect, which would wholly invalidate any conclusions made upon them.

I guess my point is, keep your mind open, wayyyy open, and fight the urge to place any possibility into the realm of "im".

Originally posted by MathematicalPhysicist
Question #4: Given the large astronomical distances that would separate us from aliens, when aliens embark on a journey to Earth, wouldn't hundreds or thousands of years pass on their home-planet by the time it takes for a one-way trip? The relativistic kinematics equations tell us the aliens aboard the star-ships would experience time dilation, so they are unaffected, but what about those on their home-planet? In essence, all of their colleagues and friends/family they knew will most likely be long dead and there is no guarantee that their civilization would even exist over such long time intervals. Why would an advanced civilization risk and compromise all of that just to spy on humans for a few seconds?

This would only make sense if they were all migrating off of their home planet.

The relativistic kinematics equations? Really?
Their colleagues and friends/family they knew will most likely be long dead? Assuming they have friends, family and colleagues and that they even die!!!!

Your logic only works if your assumptions are true. If your first assumtion fails, the whole argument fails.

reply to post by UdonNiedtuno



Good post.

Welcome to ATS.

My point exactly. A civilization that can generate wormholes at will most likely has the technology to monitor and spy on us from observatories on their planet, rather than embarking on spaceships and doing it in a very inefficient manner (spying on us).

So if they aren't spying on us?

Originally posted by MathematicalPhysicist
1. Many people have claimed that UFO's can accelerate 90 degrees relative to their position and other maneuvers that contradict the underlying physical principles of current propulsion technology. What many scientists have concluded is that such aerial maneuvering can create gravitational forces so great (hundreds of times that of Earth) and would flatten any living creature like a pancake. Your take on this?

The issue here is that you think you know what the laws of physics all are. After all, you're a "Mathematicalphysicist" and you've actually studied this stuff, so you think you're a lot smarter about this stuff than anyone else on here. You see this observation as a violation of those laws of physics, so you want an explanation that fits with what you think the laws of physics are. You know this is impossible already, so you think you've come upon a "Gotcha!" for this issue.

But any scientist knows that theories rely on presumptions and that sometimes the universe is "queerer than we CAN suppose," as one scientist put it. Just as one historical example, Newtonian physics works. It's just that as it turns out, it doesn't explain everything, so we have quantum mechanics and relativity to deal with. It still all fits, but we didn't know that when we thought Newtonian physics was the final explanation.

We could very well be in the same position vis-a-vis this particular issue. A couple of your assumptions are: 1) There are bodies in those things that could be crushed flatter than a pancake. We don't know if there are ANY "bodies" of whatever kind in them at all. 2) We don't know if what we are observing is correct. Our perception of those fast turns tells us we are "correct," but our perception could be deceptive or inadequate. We may be seeing something entirely different than what is really happening. We might be like a cat chasing a flashlight beam across the wall, thinking that circle of light has mice inside it who would be crushed flat as a pancake given our antics with the light while we laugh at our cleverness in fooling the cat.

2. To cross the vast distances of the stars, it is known without a doubt that any engine that is used would need to be extremely vast and thus requires a huge star ship. Most UFO reportings are of objects from as small as 3 m across to a one mile. Such machinery is not capable of achieving the high speeds required to cover the astronomical distances in a feasibly short time, and any advanced civilization capable of travelling to the stars would not waste such high amounts of energy or a long time to just spy on humans. Your take on this?

What is "without a doubt" again? Your assumptions are completely bogus. You are assuming an "extremely vast engine," for example. You also think that a "huge starship" would need to cover vast distances of space. You look at the size of the universe, and your mathematical physicist mind immediately figures out that it is well nigh impossible. Indeed, since you know for certain that you can't even move faster than lightspeed anyway, it's a wonder you did not discount these vast distances on that point alone. You also think the only reason "they" are here is to "spy" on us and that's not worth it.

I think that's both naive and superficial myself. I say of my own son that if he wanted to get to the other side of a wall, he would pound through the wall rather than use the door right beside him. He always uses the most difficult approach possible. I look at this issue and my conclusion is different than yours. I agree, that it can't be done, therefore "they" must not be doing it. "They" are NOT taking the bludgeon approach of crossing vast reaches of space. They must have found a way around this problem.

What way? I don't know. Many different solutions have been proposed. All I know is that there IS a solution. Wormholes? Warp drive? beats me. It's like the atomic bomb problem. Lots of groups knew it might work theoretically, but they didn't know how. We made it work, therefore they suddenly knew it COULD work, therefore they gained the confidence to know they could also figure it out. And by hook and a little crook they did. I look at this problem the same way. "They" have obviously found a way around the problem, therefore it can be done and we can do it, too.

As far as discerning their intent is to "spy" on us. That's like saying Columbus sailed the Atlantic for the sole reason of spying on the Indians. Any intelligent race must have an adventurous spirit or it would never have left the caves.

Running out of space. Continued next message.

3. An alien civilization capable of travelling to the stars has most likely mastered the physics of optics, and have cloaking technology at their disposal. Not only that, but they have also most likely mastered nanotechnology and the many other scientific areas that we have yet to even begin to slightly understand. In practice, would it not be feasible to have unmanned, cloaked aircraft that are very small but sufficient enough to serve the purpose of spying on humans?

Wow, that's a mouthfull. Yeah, my guess is their technology might be very advanced. What's with this "spying on humans" thing? But to answer the question, sure! It's feasible. We've got drones the size of honeybees that spy on humans. We even have cloaking technology ourselves. Maybe not quite as good as the Klingons, but we're fairly new at it. Why shouldn't they be capable of it? That kind of begs the question here. I don't really see this as a big issue. It doesn't require explaining.