9/11: A Boeing 757 Struck the Pentagon

Originally posted by billybob well, thatsjustwierd, you should of heard the george noory show last night. it was killer. what's the listening audience of coast to coast? couple MILLION, anyway.

I talked about this before a couple posts back. Do you know why it was "killer"? Because they said exactly what you wanted to hear. If I go around saying "I'm a billionaire, I'm a billionaire, I'm a billionaire" does that make me a billionaire? No. It's good to say, but it really doesn't mean anything until I actually prove that I'm a billionaire.

first, they had on bush's labour economist guy, morgan someone. you know what he said that was REALLY interesting to me. that most of the BILLIONS in black budgets is spent on , ......DISINFO! that could easily employ most, if not ALL, the loud-mouthed 'debunkers' and political polarizers on the whole world wide web.

So....everyone who disagrees with your views is a debunker or a disinfo spreader? Why can't people have their own opinions without being on someone's budget? There are 300,000,000 people here in the US, over 6,000,000,000 in the world. Do you honestly think everyone is going to or should have the same opinions?

too bad the cheney's and the rest of PNACs are going top nuke five or six american cities and institute martial law before the people have a chance to organise any resistance to these bushes and dicks and rummys.

Wouldn't this be classified as "disinfo"? You're spreading lies to sway the people a certain way. Yep, sounds like disinfo and propaganda to me. Sounds like hypocrisy.

Originally posted by 25thID Howard : I don't know who is paying you to do this, but I have my suspicions..

You mean I can get paid for this???

Wow, here I was just doing it for the fun of it.

Folks : The concrete in the three WTC buildings was VAPORIZED by C4...there was no pancake of all the floors one on top of another...IT WAS DEMOLITION !!

P.S. Howard, you should quit smoking. My Mom and Dad suffered horribly because of it. Having it as your avatar reveals great deal about your personality..Remember the X-Files lol ..

I don’t smoke, but Gary Cooper, who played Howard Roark in the movie, died in 1961 of lung cancer.

OK guys - my first Question for Today: Do you belive that JFK Assassination was an EXTERNAL Conspiracy against American People and against American Goverment by Russian supported Cubans? Or do you belive it was an INTERNAL Conspiracy against American People and against American Goverment by Elements of Military and Intelligence Complex in America? Do you think Lee Harvey Oswald really shot JFK in the head with this poor knowledge with weapons or were there several gunman and mister Kennedy was assassinated by a Team of professional killers, and not by a lone gunman? Do you buy the Offical story or the Unofficial One? Break. Ok, now we come to the topic of this thread. Lets say that a Boeing 757 Really hit the Pentagon - but that is not the Entire Truth. So lets check... The 757 plus bomb theory: This theory is the nearer from the official version. It would probably be the only one presented if there had not been an attempt of covering up something from the authorities. It's also the simpler to describe and understand.

- The Boeing 757 of American Airlines, registered 644 AA, fleet number 5 BP, is prepared during the night of september 10, for it's flight of the morning. - A broach technology bomb, as the one seen on the following image, is loaded in the luggage compartment. The front part, knowing that the guiding sytem is not necessary, could be replaced by something smaller. - On 11 septembre morning, this Boeing embarks sixty passengers and crew members and takes off from Washington Dulles. - The plane is remotely piloted and / or it is hijacked by Hani Hanjour and fellows. - This plane is crashed on the pentagon. - The wings go forward in the crash, folding along the fuselage, thus limiting the size of the damage on the front to an extend smaller than the wingspan of the 757. - The bomb inside explodes while the plane is entering the building, creating some important damage near the entry point and shreading the rear part of the plane into small pieces. - The uranium mass penetrates the building, making tremendous but limited in size damage, and exits the building through "punch out" hole, ending it's course in the A-E drive. Arguments for the "757 plus bomb" theory: * It's the more coherent with the witnesses accounts. Some of them, having a good point of view and / or familiar with airplanes, described this folding of the wings. * The damage on the light poles are coherent with the wingspan of a 757. * The damage on the fence, generator, small wall of the ventilation structure, fit exactly the position of the engines of a 757. * The damage on the pentagon's front fit well the size of a 757 if the wings folded along the body. The plane, rolled slightly to the left (as witnesses accounted) touches the building with it's nose at the first floor level (3 m above ground). * The damage inside the building are coherent with the assumed trajectories of the two engines (knowing that the wings folding movement deflect them), and with the trajectory of the uranium mass. * The explosion of the bomb was probably clearly visible on the images, which pushed the authorities not to show them and, therefore, publish faked images from the cctv camera. Arguments against the "757 plus bomb" theory * The noise of a 757 is not specially strident. This perception by the witnesses could be due to the fact that some were close from the plane and this one was at full throttle, a not so frequent situation for people who don't work in airports. * The letters of the "American" logo found on some debris and shown on pictures have no reason to be smaller after the crash than they were on the fuselage of N 644 AA plane. If the "757" hypothese is true, the pictures showing these "too small" letters must be fakeries of the same sort than the cctv camera images. * The conspiracy couldn't be the fact of Al Quaeda alone : one of the states having the technologies of depleted uranium and / or broach bombs must be party to it. * Loading such a bomb inside the luggage compartment of a plane on Washington Dulles airport requires a high degree of complicity on the airport's technical personnel. * If the target was the Pentagon and the attacked programmed in a raze to the ground flight, it's not clear why an uranium bomb was added inside the plane, except if we credit the thesis that this attack had for target a meeting room located deep inside the first floor of the west aisle of the Pentagon, where a meeting was held with the top officiers of the "Naval Intelligence". It would be more realistic if the initial target (missed) was the White House, the attacked programmed in a steep descent, and the target of the uranium bomb was the underground bunker under the White House.

perso.wanadoo.fr... So, If this Theory is the Closest that comes to the official story and the presented evidence that we have at disposal, then we again find out, that the Boeing 757 Crash to Pentagon IS a CONSPIRACY - and not a lone-looney-terrorist-attack, performed by fragments of Al-Qaeda alone. Maybe they were sent on a mission by OBL himself, but they did not know about all the facts and all the mission details. Maybe they did manage to hijack the airplane by kitchen knives and manage to steer it into the Pentagon. Then again maybe they were just put on the airplane as Scapegoats, since the Boeing 757 was actually remotely controlled by another party. In any case, if the Boeing 757 with the onboard Bomb did struck the Pentagon - how was this Bomb loaded? How did the members of Al-Qaeda get this bomb? How did they manage to sneak into the Airport and install it into the Airplane itself? Again, many Questions, few Answers. Clearly this Theory is the closest that we can come to the official story, and since the authorities are obviouisly trying to Hide something from us, by not showing the recordings of three different cameras, there must be much More to the official Story then "just a Boeing crashed into Pentgon". Signs of a Conspiracy? And here we have the connection between 9-11 and JFK Assassination. The evidence presented to us are not supporting the real Truth - they are just here to confuse us. Just like the original autoposy of JFK, stating that he died from a bullet hit from behind, when half of his Head is missing in the back - clearly saying that the hit came from the FRONT! But hey - Lee Harvey Oswald did it, right? And in this case, the Muslim Terrorists did it, right? They both had the Knowledge and the Resources to go into this mission as "Lone Gunman" and do the Job alone. And they both had the Power to Cover it all up? Yeah, Right! If you belive in Santa....

Originally posted by Souljah OK guys - my first Question for Today: Do you belive that JFK Assassination was an EXTERNAL Conspiracy against American People and against American Goverment by Russian supported Cubans? Or do you belive it was an INTERNAL Conspiracy against American People and against American Goverment by Elements of Military and Intelligence Complex in America? Do you think Lee Harvey Oswald really shot JFK in the head with this poor knowledge with weapons or were there several gunman and mister Kennedy was assassinated by a Team of professional killers, and not by a lone gunman? Do you buy the Offical story or the Unofficial One?

No...I don't think the Cubans had anything to do with it, and IMHO Oswald never fired a shot... I think it was the Mafia/CIA, but thats my opinion... But I don't see what JFK assassintaion had anything to do with 9/11 and the Pentagon either... BTW the quote from the french site is nothing but therory, no facts... BTW2 I thought you said it was a missle, not a bomb on the plane ? So ya switching therorys now ?

Originally posted by Jedi_Master But I don't see what JFK assassintaion had anything to do with 9/11 and the Pentagon either... BTW the quote from the french site is nothing but therory, no facts... BTW2 I thought you said it was a missle, not a bomb on the plane ? So ya switching therorys now ?

Its a Conspiracy however you turn it. Just like JFK Assassination. I dont know what I was. Maybe it was a missile. Maybe it was a Boeing 757 with a Bomb. Maybe it was not. I am just trying to understand what happened. This Theory of a Boeing 757 with a Bomb suits all of Your "facts" about the Boeing that struck the Pentagon. OK - so lets assume it did. What would you say if it had a Bomb onboard? What would you say that this bomb was NOT planted by the Al-Qaeda members? Would you then admit that it was a Conspiracy? A Conspiracy exectued by the American People to the American People? Just like JFK Assassination? If you look at it that way, JFK has ALOT in common with the 9-11...

Well... My only thought on the "bomb" in the plane theroy is... If there was a bomb on the plane, wouldn't the hole be much bigger ? The missle theroy is bogus, just for the fact that they found landing gear debris, so I ask, why put landing gear on a missle... Now the bomb on the plane, couldn't the terrorist put it there too ?

So which "truth" is correct now? Missile? Global Hawk? Now we even have a plane with a bomb on it. I though that the plane supposedly hit the newly hardened section of the pentagon in order to minimize damage. So now they put a bomb on the plane to increase the damage while hitting the pentagon in the reinforced section to minimize the damage. Oy Vey, I am confused now. Seems more like a case of, "gee my previous theory is is looking sillier and sillier, maybe if I change it again someone will buy it" What was the purpose of this bomb? I say the plane was apparently a large enough bomb in and of itself to not necessitate additional explosives.

Originally posted by Skibum So which "truth" is correct now? Missile? Global Hawk? Now we even have a plane with a bomb on it.

Don't know, it's one or the other, just not sure which one it is now... You know how they are, if one theory doesn't work try another...

Oy Vey, I am confused now.

So am I...

Seems more like a case of, "gee my previous theory is is looking sillier and sillier, maybe if I change it again someone will buy it"

You said not I, but I think you are right...

What was the purpose of this bomb? I say the plane was apparently a large enough bomb in and of itself to not necessitate additional explosives.

There is a psychological problem associated with this... If you would look ( and anyone ) at this site, and really see ( just look for your self, and well... comprehend what is said ), read through the blog, and then judge for your self... drsanity.blogspot.com... It's all I got, for now...

Originally posted by Jedi_Master If there was a bomb on the plane, wouldn't the hole be much bigger ?

Hmmm.... Lets read it again: - The bomb inside explodes while the plane is entering the building, creating some important damage near the entry point and shreading the rear part of the plane into small pieces. - The uranium mass penetrates the building, making tremendous but limited in size damage, and exits the building through "punch out" hole, ending it's course in the A-E drive.

Now the bomb on the plane, couldn't the terrorist put it there too ?

Dont you think that installing a bomb on a passenger airplane requires some Internal help and first of all, you have to GET this bomb from the magazine, and I dont think Al-Qaeda has this weapon in their arsenal. Dont you think they would have some problems in doing that, or are airports in USA so poorly guarded, that anybody can come in with an airplane bomb and put it in a suitcase and on the airplane?

Lets do some more reading. The War Drill Scenario

1. The US authorities, warned of the multiple hijacking projected by Al Qaeda, decide to experiment a set of new technologies which allows to take remote control of a hijacked plane and land it securely. 2. The pilots of the flights are party in the operation. Charles Burlingame, pilot of flight 77, is chosen for having already been in some secret ops, and being an expert who analysed the scenario of the crash of an airliner onto a target building. 3. Some big wheels and some experts of companies working on these technologies register on the flights, probably pushed to do it to show that they trust in their work. 4. Charles Burlingame, who had planed to attend a baseball game in Anaheim, california, with his spouse Sheri, tells her not to join him aboard flight 77. His brother, Brad, who reports this, says he explained that he could not get a good seat to the game. 5. Hani Hanjour and his team hijack flight 77. Perhaps softly as the captains and some passengers know in advance that this must happen. Perhaps more hardly if some hijackers loose their nerves and want to let some blood flow in order to control passengers by terror. 6. The scenario goes on, the plane (as the two others of flight 11 and flight 175) is put under electronic control. A Navy C130 has on board the remote control equimement and the "pilot". The operation is supervised by a team of the Navy intelligence, from a room located at the first floor of the west aisle of the Pentagon. 7. The air defense system is deliberatly set to stand-down, probably simulating a bureaucratic failure, unless this was part of an exercice planned in advance, which was necessary for the experiment. 8. On board the plane, Hani Hanjour sees that the plane is no longer under control, and is probably instructed by the captain that they are now under remote control, and they just have to wait to be on ground to discuss calmly with the authorities who will be friendly with the hijackers if they dont harm in any way the passengers. 9. Charles Burlingame and Hani Hanjour, perhaps both in the cockpit, and none of them understanding what is happening, see their plane run straight into the Pentagon to crash into it. 10. The bomb inside the plane explodes. The navy intelligence team, in the pentagon, none of them understanding what happens, is killed by the shaped charge explosion, the DU penetrator, the debris of the plane, the fire in the building. 11. As the operation is a full success for the three first hits, with identical screenplays, it is decided to stop flight 93, which was planned to crash onto the Capitol, and it is shot over Pensylvania. It could be by a missile launched by a neutral business jet sized plane which was following it on purpose, or as reported by Col. Donn de Grand-Pre, by two sidewinders missiles shot by a fighter of the "Happy Hooligans", a F 16 mounted squadron of the North Dakota Air Guard. 12. The crime is nearly perfect, as the "innocent perpetrators" (those who made the technology and were party in the experiment, on board the planes or inside the pentagon) are killed in the same time than the victims of the attacks, and won't come later to explain that all this was an anti-hijack experiment which was itself hijacked.

perso.wanadoo.fr...

But again, where is the evidence to support any of these alternative theories? There is none. We have conjecture, questionable logic and many, many opinion pieces - but there seems to be nothing in the way of actual evidence. (To answer one question posed - airport security still isn't anything wonderful, even after 9/11. Checked-in luggage is generally x-rayed, but this doesn't imply that smuggling on some kind of bomb would be impossible. Richard Reid, who didn't have to smuggle anything, was doing just fine - it's pure luck and quick thinking on behalf of staff and passengers, that he was stopped before detonating his shoes)

Originally posted by Tinkleflower But again, where is the evidence to support any of these alternative theories? There is none.

Where is the Evidence supporting any of these Theories? In the hands of the FBI and the CIA. Like the recorded vidoes from three different Cameras around Pentagon, that showed the impact of the Boeing or whatever hit. Why dont we cant we see this images? Why do we only see few frames from the CCTV Camera - that are probably faked anyway? Again, they are Theories - not Facts! But this one is the closest to the official truth - but with a Twist. [edit on 18/6/05 by Souljah]

Where is the Evidence supporting any of these Theories?

Perhaps what constitutes evidence is where your opinion and mine differs the most. After reading this thread, the official reports, alternate theories, eyewitness statements not present in official reports, technical information from various sources (to name just a few compilations) - I arrived at the conclusion that there's nothing to support the claims of 757 Plus Bomb, or Not 757 At All, or Not 757 But Hawk Instead.

Why do we only see few frames from the CCTV Camera - that are probably faked anyway?

See, this is muddying your own argument. You make an assumption that something is "probably" the case - doing so endangers your other claims as less than viable, as we simply can't take "probably" to be any useful indicator. I'm fairly sure we haven't seen everything there is to know relating to the entire 9/11 situation. Making a claim that something is true using "what-if" and "probably" and "might" does nothing to further the search for the truth - they just muddy what are already murky waters. [edit on 18-6-2005 by Tinkleflower]

Originally posted by Tinkleflower See, this is muddying your own argument. You make an assumption that something is "probably" the case - doing so endangers your other claims as less than viable, as we simply can't take "probably" to be any useful indicator.

Yea certainly know how to cunter a statement - are you a Lawyer? Anyway, lets check this Images captured by CCTV: Why there are "lost" frames?

If we don't focus on the assumed presence of a flying object having caused this explosion but only on the explosion itself, frames 1 and 2 can't be in succession in the film, separated by 100 ms. Assuming that the blast propagation in the air occurs at a rather regular speed, close from the sound speed in the air (300 m/s), we should see at least one frame showing the beginning of the explosion, perhaps more ! - Why, if there is no lost frame, this can't be a 757 Assuming that there are no lost frames, and that a 757 has moved from frame 1 (hidden by yellow cabinet) to frame 2 (masked by explosion) beetween frame 1 and 2, in 66 to 100 ms, we must admit that this plane has covered a distance equal to : L + S L = 45 m : It's length to appear completely at the left of the yellow cabinet S = 40 m (minimum) 70 m minus the radius of the fireball The speed of the 757 should so be at least 85 m in 100 ms, which gives a speed of 850 m/s, or 3060 km/h (~ mach 2.7). I suppose it's not even necessary to ask the engineers of Boeing to know if this is possible. - If this was a 757, how many frames have been lost ? If we assume that the 757 was about full speed, 900 km/h, or 250 m/s, the necessary time to fly over 85 m is 340 ms. This means that three frames have been lost. There is, obviously, a total lack of chance to loose the three frames of this video on which the 757 could be seen, crossing majestuously the space beetween the yellow cabinet and the pentagon, and crashing itself on the wall of the pentagon!

perso.wanadoo.fr... Three Lost Frames? Who could have done that? Again, Al-Qaeda Members? And why not show other recordings, that would prove their Official Story and shut US UP once and for all?

- The Sheraton hotel The CCTV video of a "mysterious hotel", not so mysterious in fact as it would be the Sheraton National hotel, is said to have also registered the plane. The video has been viewed by the hotel employees, shocking them. Then the FBI arrived and took the video. - The Virginia department of transports The Virginia departement of transports has video cams on main highways to monitor trafic. Two of these cams are near the pentagon, on Washington boulevard. They can be viewed on internet on TrafficLand web site. The first cam ("@ I 395") has a field of view similar to the cctv of the pentagon. It must have seen the plane arriving, flying over the crossroads (95 m zone), then over the embankment (65 m zone), clearly visible in the field of view, then over the heliport. In plain line, the real trajectory, and in dotted line, the trajectory of the "virtual" plane. The second cam ("@Pentagon") is located on a pole which has probably been struck by the attacking plane on 9/11. If recorded, the images of this cam must show a brutal interruption of signal. - The pentagon's gas station The NEXCOMM/CITGO-gas station is the last place over which the plane flew before crossing the highway and diving onto the Pentagon. Jose Velasquez, the employee at this station heard the plane, just by the station, then saw the explosion on the Pentagon. Within the minutes after it, he said, FBI came in the station and took the video before he could even see it. Read witness account.

perso.wanadoo.fr... Again, you dont find that a little bit Suspecious, that the FBI came within minutes after the Impact and took the videos away? Or did the Al-Qaeda members Hire the FBI to take those recordings away, so people wont know what happened? [edit on 18/6/05 by Souljah]

Yea certainly know how to cunter a statement - are you a Lawyer?

LOL no, I'm not a lawyer - and I'm not laughing at you, but just laughing very childishly at what is a beautiful spelling error. And there's absolutely no disrespect intended; it just struck me as funny, seeing as lawyers are often seen in a less-than-positive light...not least in the US I'll be looking in more detail at your latest post, a little later today. Alas, real life has interfered with my ATS-ing and the story of 9/11 must wait.

Originally posted by Souljah Why there are "lost" frames?

You're making the erroneous assumption that the camera was operating at a full 30 fps. It is common, especially on multi-camera setups, for the video to record at a lower frame rate for a single camera, as you then can compile information from all cameras on a single recording unit. Depending on the number of cameras, the frame rate typically varies from 1 fps to 5-6 fps. So all those elaborate calculations of yours about speed go out the window. Sorry.

Originally posted by Tinkleflower I'll be looking in more detail at your latest post, a little later today. Alas, real life has interfered with my ATS-ing and the story of 9/11 must wait.

i thought you said there was no evidence. to make such a sweeping statement is ludicrous. i have to say, you pulled it off with great confidence, though. how are your physics skills? how about your forensic skills? you ARE a forensic scientist and a physicist, aren't you? souljah, i and a few others have spent a VERY considerable amount of time studying all the possibilities and probabilities. we've been 'discussing' this with some VERY educated and intelligent defenders of the official story. they actually have arguments that are backed with data, and not just strong opinions. if you REALLY read all the arguments here, you wouldn't have bothered posting your opinion. i mean, DAMN! you've offered NOTHING to this discussion but an opinion weighted with that 'i know best, kids' attitude.

how are your physics skills? how about your forensic skills?

Fine, thanks. How are yours?

you ARE a forensic scientist and a physicist, aren't you?

I don't even play one on TV (more's the pity. The money, I hear, is much better). I'm sure you believe your opinion to be equally valid. Because that's what it is - an opinion. It's not a fact, and it's certainly not proof of anything. Same as mine. And my opinion is based upon observation, the dissection of information, and (sometimes) intelligent debate - much as you claim yours to be, too. Alas, I might have to join the ranks of "Ah well, we tried. If people want to believe something, no amount of compelling evidence will change their minds". And I'm sure you'd say exactly the same thing to me. Don't you just love the exchange of ideas?

Originally posted by billybob souljah, i and a few others have spent a VERY considerable amount of time studying all the possibilities and probabilities. we've been 'discussing' this with some VERY educated and intelligent defenders of the official story. they actually have arguments that are backed with data, and not just strong opinions. if you REALLY read all the arguments here, you wouldn't have bothered posting your opinion. i mean, DAMN! you've offered NOTHING to this discussion but an opinion weighted with that 'i know best, kids' attitude.

Sorry if I have offered Nothing to this Discussion. And sorry for wasting Your precious time by reading my "I Know Best, Kids" posts. I guess this is a Loose-Loose situation. People will always want to get to the bottom of it, by considering all possibilites and there will always be the Others, trying to debunk them and to defened the Offical Story. Sorry but my Opinion Still Stands - I think the entire 9-11 is a Conspiracy, strike on Pentagon included. I just wish everybody could see this from my point of View. I also understand that its hard to be objective when your Country is Under Attack. Again, sorry for Wasting your Precious time and for "bothering to post my own opinion". Geee, I thought thats why these Forums are for. Guess I was Wrong.

Originally posted by Tinkleflower And my opinion is based upon observation, the dissection of information, and (sometimes) intelligent debate - much as you claim yours to be, too. Alas, I might have to join the ranks of "Ah well, we tried. If people want to believe something, no amount of compelling evidence will change their minds". Don't you just love the exchange of ideas?

yes, 'we' did try, and are now DESPERATELY trying. i'm reminded of the boy with his finger in the dike. i do love the exchange of ideas. i don't real have much of an opinion. mostly it's an anti-opinion. i don't know what happened. i do know that the events surrounding what happened make the official story of what happened, (along with the HUNDREDS of holes in the official story dike), VERY UNLIKELY. i don't have the weakness of leaving everything under the microscope, like the apologists do. i look closely at things, 'under the microscope', and then i pan out for a view of the whole. this is the fuzzy approach, which is the single best way to arrive at crisp conclusions from a mountain of conflicting data. you see, it doesn't even matter if the WHOLE official story was true(regarding the mechanical aspects) because, there is still the afterimage in the form of the patriot act, the downing street memo, PNAC's 'new pearl harbour', etc. which show that the effect of 911 truly is an emergency; the emergence of fascism in america. there is no al-queda that is not a part of this hegellian dialectic to intsitute a totalitarian NWO, in my oh so really really humble opinion. there is only 'the corporation'. compell that.