9/11: A Boeing 757 Struck the Pentagon

When will this insanity end?

Originally posted by UM_Gazz When will this insanity end?

when all the evil oligarchs are locked up in tiny cages. when the 'truth' is acceptable to everyone. when pigs fly.

Originally posted by UM_Gazz When will this insanity end?

When they can prove that they were able to extract DNA to identify passengers. When they can prove that a 757 'vaporized' but DNA didnt. When they can prove a fiberglass chunk was able to crush through and bounce off several thick walls. When they release confiscated tapes unaltered.

The white smoke trail could have been a problem

If any of you believe that white stuff in the pentagon video is smoke...then that object is NOT a Boeing 757, the engines from a hydro-fan such as a Boeing 757 do not produce white smoke, unless they are very high up.

Your going to get the arguement that the plane hit the poles and perhaps debris was the cause.Damaging one of the engines and thus pouring out smoke. But I wont allow the 'debunkers' the satisfaction to do so

Originally posted by HowardRoark Um, no, the whole debate rests on people's gullibility in believing the half baked theories of a U.S. hating left-wing, Frenchman.

I agree with this 100%.... As a matter of fact where is all the footage from all the security cameras in the airport when the Air France Concord went down, maybe there is a conspiracy there as well. Hay I don’t see any wings in the wreckage of that plane either, hm… Maybe it was actually a French made cruse missile meant to take out a patch of empty farm land while the real plane was secretly sold to some country that was suppose to be under UN embargo. Then France had to cover their tails about where that plane went to so as not to get in trouble with the UN security counsel… I bet if I worked at it a bit I could come up with an even more convincing conspiracy theory along those lines then this bunch of nonsense. Hay Zaphod58 welcome to the insanity pit, you should have a great time in this thread… Suspend all logic ye that enter here… I am reminded of a line from “Ford Fairlain” when I think of this thread, something in regards to a cheese-grater and it “being mildly amusing, but mostly just painful.” [edit on 6/25/2005 by defcon5]

The only nonsense around here is the lack of evidence of a Boeing 757 and proof of all they say. They expect people to believe an entire plane just vaporized, but tissue samples of everybody onboard was found and identified through DNA testing... give me a break

No actually it nonsense to believe that the structural remains that you see of lower speed crashes into a field is going to leave the same amount identifiable debris as a high speed crash into a building which had porous areas into which broken up debris could travel. As far as tissue samples go, why would they release that? Has any credible agency asked for it? Have they ever done that in any other crashes pre-911? Or do you just think that they really care about putting an end to the conspiracy theories out there? As far as they are concerned it is such a small percentage of the people that even question this that there is not reason to do what you ask, go through the expense of it, or put the families through the issues that it would involve. I can see it now: [dream sequence] Bush picks up the phone: “Can I have the FAA main office please. Yeah FAA can you exhume the remains of the people from the pentagon crash site and do a DNA test analysis of it please? Yeah well I am very concerned about this site called “Abovetopsecret”, yeah you know the one. Well you know that SMR over there is just not going to be happy till we release that information, so get right on that ok. Yeah well I know we just don’t normally do that, but it’s very important that we put and end to this. Yeah and why not send the department head down to personally hand deliver this to SMR’s house as soon as it’s done…” [/dream sequence] Then even if they hand delivered it to you on a gold platter, you would still believe that the information was bogus (fake results, edited videos). If it did change your mind, you would be right here on the other side of the fence with guys not believing you. Edit to add: If you knew anything about the condition of most people after a crash, and they way they handle the remains it might all make more sense to you. I was around when the NW flight in Detroit went down and heard the stories about how that was handled there. Needless to say there is not usually much left and what is left isn’t very identifiable. You say get DNA, well unless you have something to match it to, what good does it do you? That is all I am going to even discuss on the topic of the remains, you research on that one yourself some first. [edit on 6/25/2005 by defcon5]

Ummmm...maybe you havent heard, but they announced that they identified all people onboard by means of DNA at the Pentagon..... This is why I call BS because, as you just put in your post, "there is not usually much left and what is left isn’t very identifiable."

I will send you a U2U later to explain what I am talking about. I am just not comfortable talking about that online since most are going to be sensitive to that topic. Either way the point of the thread is about a 757 or not a 757, could have been an empty 757. I have never argued that point before since it is not something I have any knowledge of. Now as to whether I see anything to say something hit the building but a 757, I do not. I do not disagree that there are some questions about 911, especially how a plane hit a building in Washington and managed not to get shot down, were there fighters even tailing these planes? Those are defiantly questions I would like to see answered, but as far as every piece of evidence I see it was still a 757. [edit on 6/25/2005 by defcon5]

I think someone mentioned somewhere in this thread that the other tapes (that would actually show the plane and the impact) haven't been released because it would be to painful for the families of the victims to watch....... (it might have been in another thread about the pentagon) Umm.... they played the footage of the WTC bulidings being struck and collapsing... over and over and over... as if that's not painful to watch. That's a real bullcrap excuse. I'm probably just adding more fuel to the fire here with these flash links... but I was wondering if the ats community has seen them and what they think of them. www.muchosucko.com... www.muchosucko.com.../conspiracybuddy.html *shrugs* I dunno...not trying to say muchosucko.com is a credible source for information either ... (though it is quite an entertaining site) I'm sure there are dozens of flash creations that dispute the 'conspiracy' theories also. I honestly don't know what to believe anymore....but the 'official' theories still don't sit right with me. No one will ever be able to convince me that our government didn't know these attacks were going to happen. I don't know if they were in on it.... but they definitely allowed it to happen. There is no question about that...in my mind anyway.

Have you ever seen the Thunderbirds and Blue Angels fly? What do you think that white smoke they leave behind the planes is? It's OIL. ALL aircraft engines leave a very small white trail that's hard to see, when they are running normally. An aircraft engine is designed to run at full power long enough to get the plane off the ground and into a positive climb, then they throttle them down. If you run an eigine at full power for long times, it vibrates badly, which could cause lines in the engine to rub against things. Ever hear about the Air Transat flight that glided into the Azores because a fuel line in the engine rubbed, then broke and they ran out of fuel? Well guess what else goes into an engine during operation. That's right, OIL. Add oil to a hot engine, and you get.....white smoke. The ONLY engine I have EVER heard of being run at full power for any length of time is Russian, on their Condor aircraft. Because the engines weren't very well built, they would run them for two minutes at power on the end of the runway. If they didn't fail, they took off. Modern engines just aren't meant to take high power settings for longer than a few minutes before failing, or having some kind of problem.

this page has some fab info and observation a quote.....

Now I had to negotiate that with about 16 different police agencies here in DC. And I was taken, by the head of security at the Pentagon, into the Pentagon building. I was walked through the area where the Joint Chief's have lunch and I was taken out to the grounds in the parade area where we were going to be. And he said, "You can't come up any further than this wall." Well the wall was at the end of an area that doesn't come up to the steps. And I said there had been a Supreme Court decision in the 1970's that demonstrations could come all the way up to the steps. And he said, "You can't do that now because we are on delta alert." And I said, "What's that?" And he said, "It's our highest form of alert." And I said, "Why are you on alert?" And he said, "We're getting bomb threats every day from the Muslims." And he said, "And we have this constant alert and you can't come any closer for security reasons." And then he pointed up at the top of the building and he said, "We have radar up there watching to see if any planes are coming into the building." And he said, "We have photographic equipment and look at the skies with the videos and we're going to be taping your demonstration." And I said, "That's nice, can we get a copy?" This was the late 1990's. Did they go back to sleep? They have the equipment to know something's coming.

and from time magazine, september 14th.....

At 9:25, Garvey, in an historic and admirable step, and almost certainly after getting an okay from the White House, initiated a national ground stop, which forbids takeoffs and requires planes in the air to get down as soon as reasonable. The order, which has never been implemented since flying was invented in 1903, applied to virtually every single kind of machine that can takeoff — civilian, military, or law enforcement. The Herndon command center coordinated the phone call to all major FAA sites, the airline reps in the room contacted all airlines, and so-called NOTAMS —notices to airmen — were also sent out. The FAA had stopped the world.

sounds pretty much like a stand-down order to me. " applied to virtually every single kind of machine that can takeoff — civilian, military, or law enforcement." 9:25 is twelve minutes before the missile(rummy said it, i can say it) hit the pentagon. an "admirable step" time magazine? now THAT'S SPIN!

Originally posted by Souljah ...and Another Rumsfeld "slip"

Donald Rumsfeld, the Secretary of Defence, was in his office on the eastern side of the building, in a meeting with Christopher Cox, the defence policy committee chairman of the House of Representatives. Mr Rumsfeld, recalls Mr Cox, watched the TV coverage from New York and said: "Believe me, this isn't over yet. There's going to be another attack, and it could be us." Moments later, the plane hit. Mr Rumsfeld ran to the point of impact and helped load the wounded on to stretchers before retreating to the secure National Military Command Centre, beneath the building. There, he refused entreaties to evacuate even as the Centre filled with smoke.

source: Telegraph

That is one of the most daft comments I have ever heard from anyone on this forum. Here, *I* will make another prophetic announcement (along the lines of Rumsfeld). Remember folks, be sure you turn me in to authorities as soon as this happens because I am *obviously* aware of the up and coming event. Believe me, there will be another terrorist attack, and it could be us. There you have it. Be sure you reference to this post in your future posts regarding any terrorist attack that occurs after July 2nd 2005, 4:53PM CST. I *obviously* must have had a part in it and was aware of the event before it happened. Good lord...

Originally posted by Souljah

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord With enough velocity, a metal object such as an airline can certainly penetrate a building (and more).

- Blue Dot: Camera Position - Red Line: Centerline of Field of View - Yellow Lines: Approx. Field of View Borders - Green Line: Approx. Path of AA77 - Red Dot: Tail Position in Photograph - Pink Line: Angle from Camera to Point of Impact

I've completed a more accurate and detailed analysis of the photographs. My initial estimate was that the tail of the plane was 465' from the impact point. Upon further examination it appears it could have been closer to 450' from the impact point, based on the following photo analysis. The Pentagon measures 921.6 feet along each external face, half of this distance, marked on the diagram between the central corridor and the upper-left corner of the Pentagon (cyan) is 460.8' Take this base measurement as a scale and measure the distance from the rear of the plane in the photo (red dot), along the approximate path of the jet (dark-green line) to the impact point. The distance the tail traveled between frames (heavy red line) is approx. 450', which is just short of the originally estimated 465' or 3 lengths of a 757, which is 155'. So, 450 feet traveled in 1/30th of a second = 13500 feet/sec. = 2.55 miles/sec. = 153.4 miles/min. = 9204.54 mph = 7997 kts. = Mach 12.11 Even if you alter the path of the jet to a direct (90 degree) impact trajectory, (which introduces other unexplainable issues such as intact light-posts and trees, clearing the embankment, not to mention those anomalous hydro spools) you still end up with a final velocity exceeding Mach 6! www.cyberspaceorbit.com...

Boeing 757 Crusing speed = 540 mph (868 km/h) How exactly would that be possible? Thats a very high speed - even for a curise missile, not to mention a passenger Boeing 757.

Here is your answer. Whomever did the analysis was incorrect, and he did not do his homework. He has based his math on the premise that the video you are watching is from a standard NTSC 30 frames per second recording. Which it is, except it's not saving 30 frames per second, it's saving 2 frames per second - standard fare for many security cameras (cameras that are there with the intention of recording incoming vehicle traffic shoot at 30fps but save/record only 2 frames per second). If you divide the above by 30, and multiply by 2 then wow, the jet was going around 600MPH. The difference in the 80MPH is simply his inaccuracy in his "estimates" when drawing his lines/angles/etc and his second glaring error in forgetting to subtract the length of the 757 from his length equation. Go figure, just like the Flight Data Recorder showed (stuff freely available to the public for a long long time now folks) the 757 was going 514 MPH at/near the point of impact. [edit on 2-7-2005 by CatHerder]

Originally posted by Souljah Color of Fire

1. Traces of smoke from Jet Engine of a Cruise Missle 2. Cloud of Steam, which developed under pressure 3. Explosion that is spreading from inside the building. We seperate explosive material in two groups: - for those that create a shock-wave faster than around 200 m/s we say, they DETONATE - for those that create slower shock-waves we say they BURN The top picture shows the moment Pentagon got hit, and it shows the true nature of Explosion. Under pressuore of the shock-wave, the steam from inside the building quickly formed/condensed and crated the cloud above. The Velocity of the shock-wave is much faster and fits the detonation of very powerufl explosives. It is definetly NOT the fire, that would be created by the burning of kerozine.

Color of the Flames is Totaly different, when kerozine is burning. It has a very special Yellow color (as seen below on the picture of WTC impact). The Fire is mixed with Black, Heavy smoke.

I Simply *love* when people post doctored photos (the one you chose to use was touched up by the french website that made the original Pentagon conspiracy story that so many people still believe). Here is the same frame, without the exposure changed to suit the story. Note: don't you see that the image you're posting has been altered to increase both the brightness and blue hues? Now, once again, just for everyone still reading this please do apply your above statements to this frame (the same frame as above). 2nd frame: And here is the 3rd frame showing all the black sooty smoke from a jet fuel fire. And the 4th frame. Please explain to us how this "missile" explosion turned from a bright white explosion into a black sooty jet fuel fire within 0.50 second time span. I'd love to hear the theory here. As far as your "detonate" explaination included, the author seems to choose to ignore the fact that these frames are not one per 1/30th of a second, but rather are recorded 1/2 second apart. Almost 4 years later, and still people want to believe in a missile/drone/magic air plane theory. Astounding.

Originally posted by Damned Has anyone here met a physics major or independent crash investigator (not affiliated with the gov) who believes that it was possible for a 757 to enter the Pentagon and leave no trace? [edit on 12-12-2004 by Damned]

This is the problem with questions like yours. They are not based in logic or science. WHERE do you get that it left no trace? The whole problem with your question is that you choose to ignore the facts and the blatantly obvious evidence in front of you. It's equivalent to me placing a cherry pie on the table in front of you and you then posing the question: Has anyone met a baker or cook that believes it was possible for there to be a pie on the table? The answer to both your question and my fictitious one is simple. Yes.

Excellent post Catherder. Thanks for the info.

I finally got chance to vote Catherder - our resident government disinformation specialist, if we're to believe some folk - WATS this month. Why people are still refusing to look at evidence - at least, any which doesn't match their particular conspiracy theory - is beyond me. Perhaps more to the point though, why don't these folk ever answer questions posted by Catherder? I'd like to see the answers too. I'd also perhaps like to know someone who has put so much time and effort into offering what can only be described as solid evidence is automatically labelled "disinformation specialist" simply because the information presented blew (insert conspiracy here) out of the water? Gotta keep up my own research too, you know....

9/11...Pentagon...aircraft wreckage staged?? Not sure how reliable this site is, but it has some interesting pictures showing men in business suits running around, supposedly during the first hour of the Pentagon attack, with what looks like aircraft wreckage in their grubby hands....Hmmmmm. www.newsfollowup.com... You could argue that they are just picking up wreckage after the event, but from their body postures it sure looks like they're about to throw those parts, as apposed to picking them up. And they look like they are in a hurry...Why would they be in a hurry to pick up wreckage for investigation after the "attack"? Another internet fake? Or another clue to what really happened on 9-11? AP&F...