9/11: A Boeing 757 Struck the Pentagon

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by jthomas Demonstrate the validity of any claim that that all evidence must come from the FAA, FBI, and the NTSB for us to know whether AA77, a Boeing 757, hit the Pentagon or not.

I will only state this 1 more time. If you do not understand it PLEASE get someone to help you to. THE FBI AND THE NTSB ARE THE MAIN INVESTIGATORS FOR THE 9/11 CRIME SCENES. THERE REPORTS ARE THE ONLY OFFICIAL REPORTS THAT MATTER WHEN IT COMES TO KNOWING WHAT REALLY HAPPENED THAT DAY, INCLUDING IF FLKIGHT 77 ACTULLAY DID HIT THE PENTAGON. [edit on 27-5-2008 by ULTIMA1]

Let me help you out of your confusion, Ultima1. 1. You'll recall that you stated for all to see: "Since the FAA , FBI, and NTSB have not released most of the information we do not know what hit the Pentagon. If it was a plane we do not know what plane it was." I reminded you, "Provide the information that the FAA, FBI, and NTSB has released and demonstrate that eyewitness testimony and wreckage cannot be evidence of what type of aircraft and which flight it was. Demonstrate the validity of any claim that that all evidence must come from the FAA, FBI, and the NTSB. Please support your claim. Please back up your irrational claim that "only official reports" constitute "evidence" when we all know full well that investigations gather and investigate evidence, including that of the many hundreds of eyewitnesses that saw and/or recovered the wreckage from inside of the Pentagon, before a report can be issued. Please stop dancing around and support your claims. Your trolling is absurd and just going to get you in trouble.

Originally posted by jthomas Please back up your irrational claim that "only official reports" constitute "evidence" when we all know full well that investigations gather and investigate evidence, including that of the many hundreds of eyewitnesses that saw and/or recovered the wreckage from inside of the Pentagon, before a report can be issued.

The offical crime scene reports are the only way to find out what really happened. The witness statements would not hold up in court, therfore they are not proof of flight 77 hitting the Pentaogn. The FBI and NTSB have not released any photos or videos that show Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon. The FAA anf FBI have refused to release most information on the crime scenes. PLEASE DO SOME RESEARCH SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THE VERY SIMPLE STATMENTS I AM TELLING YOU.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by jthomas Please back up your irrational claim that "only official reports" constitute "evidence" when we all know full well that investigations gather and investigate evidence, including that of the many hundreds of eyewitnesses that saw and/or recovered the wreckage from inside of the Pentagon, before a report can be issued.

The offical crime scene reports are the only way to find out what really happened.

Please answer the question. Explain just WHY anyone needs any "official crime scene reports" to know that AA77, a Boeing 757, hit the Pentagon? Did we need an "official crime scene" report to know that WTC 1, 2 and 7 fell down. Of course not.

The witness statements would not hold up in court, therfore they are not proof of flight 77 hitting the Pentaogn.

There is no court involved. Eyewitness reports are just all the time to corroborate or contradict other evidence. Please provide statements of the hundreds of witnesses that saw and/or recovered the wreckage from inside the wreckage.

The FBI and NTSB have not released any photos or videos that show Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon.

As you know, any photos or videos are immaterial given the other evidence.

PLEASE DO SOME RESEARCH SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THE VERY SIMPLE STATMENTS I AM TELLING YOU.

I am asking you to support your claims. You haven't and won't. You are indicating you have done no research. Please support your claims or admit that you are unable to do so. That's what adults do. Proceed to support your claims.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by jthomas Please back up your irrational claim that "only official reports" constitute "evidence" when we all know full well that investigations gather and investigate evidence, including that of the many hundreds of eyewitnesses that saw and/or recovered the wreckage from inside of the Pentagon, before a report can be issued.

The offical crime scene reports are the only way to find out what really happened. The witness statements would not hold up in court, therfore they are not proof of flight 77 hitting the Pentaogn. The FBI and NTSB have not released any photos or videos that show Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon. The FAA anf FBI have refused to release most information on the crime scenes. PLEASE DO SOME RESEARCH SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THE VERY SIMPLE STATMENTS I AM TELLING YOU.

Here are the witness reports that are available.. I believe that collectively these reports would very much hold up in court.. 911research.wtc7.net... and here are some more topics to consider..this is good research.. check it out.. 911review.com... 911review.com... 911review.com... 911review.com... 911review.com... 911review.com... 911review.com... 911review.com... 911review.com... 911review.com... 911review.com... 911review.com...

Originally posted by jthomas Please answer the question. Explain just WHY anyone needs any "official crime scene reports" to know that AA77, a Boeing 757, hit the Pentagon? Did we need an "official crime scene" report to know that WTC 1, 2 and 7 fell down. Of course not.

We need the crime scene reports to know what happened that day, And yes we need the crime scene reports to know what casued the towers and buidling 7 to collapse.

There is no court involved.

The witnesees statements would not hold up in court so therefore they are not good evidence.

As you know, any photos or videos are immaterial given the other evidence.

What other evidence, there is no other evidence?

I am asking you to support your claims. You haven't and won't. You are indicating you have done no research. Please support your claims or admit that you are unable to do so.

911commission.gov...

By law, the FBI becomes the lead investigative agency when airline crashes are the result of a criminal act, and the NTSB provides support when requested. [37] However, the families were advised by FBI officials that the FBI is investigating only the terrorists. Why, then, have we heard nothing from the NTSB? According to Mary Schiavo, former Inspector General of the Department of Transportation, "In every single aviation disaster, whether there was criminal activity or not, in every single one in the course of aviation history it has been followed -- not only where necessary a national criminal investigation -- but also a National Transportation Safety [Board] investigation into what went wrong in the aviation system so that it never happens again." [38] NTSB experts would examine flight and data recorders, and ATC radar tracking data, as well as evaluate the transcripts of air controller-pilot conversations and study air traffic control service on September 11th. They would have also collected airframe wreckage at the scenes and interviewed eye witnesses. Finally, the NTSB would have assessed survival factors, based on documentation of impact forces, emergency planning and crash-fire-rescue efforts, [39] all of which would have contributed to a better understanding of what happened that morning.

911research.wtc7.net...

The Pentagon BPS is the only government investigation of the crash of Flight 77 that admits to existing, but it was defined as and limited to an investigation of the performance of the building. There was no investigation into the crash by the National Transportation and Safety Board (NTSB).

Statement of Mary Schiavo to the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States May 23, 2003

In every other aviation disaster, including those precipitated by terrorism or aviation crimes or piracy, the National Transportation Safety Board examined the tragedy and issued technical, operational and policy recommendations to our government, the airlines, airports, and others. The NTSB does this to enable us to correct the lapses that permitted the tragedy to occur. Indeed, the party most cited as causing or contributing to airline crashes is none other than our own FAA. No such NTSB investigation occurred nor is forthcoming to examine the 9/11 crashes. Both methods of accountability and correction were lost in the government’s haste to help the carriers’ finances. The failure to deploy the two systems of examination and correction in aviation tragedies, were deliberately thwarted by our government and airline lobbyists and lawyers have doomed our citizens to suffer future repeated terrorist attacks. Our government has sent the official message that it is willing to protect the carriers and others and their corporateleadership from, and at the expense of, dead Americans, devastated families and a destroyed aviation system.

Originally posted by pccat Here are the witness reports that are available..

Too bad the admission of a witness like this just made most of the witness testimonies unreliable. 911research.wtc7.net...

Cook, Scott P. [We didn't know what kind of plane had hit the Pentagon, or where it had hit. Later, we were told that] it was a 757 out of Dulles, which had come up the river in back of our building, turned sharply over the Capitol, ran past the White House and the Washington Monument, up the river to Rosslyn, then dropped to treetop level and ran down Washington Boulevard to the Pentagon (...) As we watched the black plume gather strength, less than a minute after the explosion, we saw an odd sight that no one else has yet commented on. Directly in back of the plume, which would place it almost due west from our office, a four-engine propeller plane, which Ray later said resembled a C-130, started a steep decent towards the Pentagon. It was coming from an odd direction (planes don't go east-west in the area), and it was descending at a much steeper angle than most aircraft. Trailing a thin, diffuse black trail from its engines, the plane reached the Pentagon at a low altitude and made a sharp left turn, passing just north of the plume, and headed straight for the White House. All the while, I was sort of talking at it: "Who the hell are you? Where are you going? You're not headed for downtown!" Ray and Verle watched it with me, and I was convinced it was another attack. But right over the tidal basin, at an altitude of less than 1000 feet, it made another sharp left turn to the north and climbed rapidly. Soon it was gone, leaving only the thin black trail.

[edit on 28-5-2008 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by jthomas Please answer the question. Explain just WHY anyone needs any "official crime scene reports" to know that AA77, a Boeing 757, hit the Pentagon? Did we need an "official crime scene" report to know that WTC 1, 2 and 7 fell down. Of course not.

We need the crime scene reports to know what happened that day, And yes we need the crime scene reports to know what casued the towers and buidling 7 to collapse.

We did not need "crime scene reports" to know what caused the towers to collapse. That's a structural engineering issue. Neither did we need "crime scene reports" to know that AA11 hit WTC 1 and UA175 hit WTC 7. Neither do we need "crime scene reports" to know that AA77, a Boeing 757, hit the Pentagon.

There is no court involved.

The witnesees statements would not hold up in court so therefore they are not good evidence.

There is no court involved. Eyewitness testimony is used.

As you know, any photos or videos are immaterial given the other evidence.

What other evidence, there is no other evidence?

Demonstrate your claim that only "official reports" are "other" evidence and that unless reports are released from the FAA. NTSB, and FBI, one cannot know that AA77, a Boeing 757, hit the Pentagon. You must support your claims.

I am asking you to support your claims. You haven't and won't. You are indicating you have done no research. Please support your claims or admit that you are unable to do so.

911commission.gov...

By law, the FBI becomes the lead investigative agency when airline crashes are the result of a criminal act, and the NTSB provides support when requested. [37] However, the families were advised by FBI officials that the FBI is investigating only the terrorists. Why, then, have we heard nothing from the NTSB? According to Mary Schiavo, former Inspector General of the Department of Transportation, "In every single aviation disaster, whether there was criminal activity or not, in every single one in the course of aviation history it has been followed -- not only where necessary a national criminal investigation -- but also a National Transportation Safety [Board] investigation into what went wrong in the aviation system so that it never happens again." [38] NTSB experts would examine flight and data recorders, and ATC radar tracking data, as well as evaluate the transcripts of air controller-pilot conversations and study air traffic control service on September 11th. They would have also collected airframe wreckage at the scenes and interviewed eye witnesses. Finally, the NTSB would have assessed survival factors, based on documentation of impact forces, emergency planning and crash-fire-rescue efforts, [39] all of which would have contributed to a better understanding of what happened that morning.

Yes, Mary Schiavo agreed that AA11, UA175, AA77, each were hijacked and deliberately flown into buildings.

In the past, in the aftermath of a terrorist attack on aviation, both the NTSB and victims on the plane and on the ground were able to seek discovery to determine how it was the terrorists were able to get access to the airlines, airports or other aviation facilities. ... Almost 31 years after four planes were hijacked and blown up in an Islamic jihad staged inJordan, four U.S. planes were hijacked in what Osama Bin Laden would call, in congratulatory messages, a jihad. ... On September 11, 2001, the government, airlines, the airports, the security companies and others had actual knowledge of how bad aviation security was. The law placed upon them the responsibility to protect against hijackers. All must be held accountable, or no one will improve or comply with our security laws. What they don’t want anyone to find out is the extent of their negligence and complacency. www.9-11commission.gov...

So you agree, then, Ultima1, that eyewitnesses and wreckage existed and reports contribute to a "better understanding of what happened that morning," AA77 hitting the Pentagon. As your quotes makes clear, one does not need "official reports" to know that AA77, a Boeing 757, hit the Pentagon.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by pccat Here are the witness reports that are available..

Too bad the admission of a witness like this just made most of the witness testimonies unreliable.

Well, that is a fallacious statement. Variance in eyewitness testimony is normal. The majority of eyewitness testimony that a twin-engine airliner hit the Pentagon is consistent, even without the eyewitnesses knowing it was AA77 or some not knowing it was a 757. Same is true for the WTC attacks.

Originally posted by jthomas Neither did we need "crime scene reports" to know that AA11 hit WTC 1 and UA175 hit WTC 7. Neither do we need "crime scene reports" to know that AA77, a Boeing 757, hit the Pentagon.

You have no evidence that AA11 hit WTC 1, and UA175 hit WTC 2 not 7. No plane hit WTC 7. You have no real evidence that AA77 hit the pentagon.

Demonstrate your claim that only "official reports" are "other" evidence and that unless reports are released from the FAA. NTSB, and FBI, one cannot know that AA77, a Boeing 757, hit the Pentagon. You must support your claims.

We need to have the crime scene reports to know what happened because the witness statements are no good and we do not have any real evidence.

Yes, Mary Schiavo agreed that AA11, UA175, AA77, each were hijacked and deliberately flown into buildings.

Please show me where she stated anything about the 11.175, and 77 in the quote i posted.

So you agree, then, Ultima1, that eyewitnesses and wreckage existed

Witness and wreakage did exist BUT IT DOES NOT PROVE WHAT HIT OR WHAT PLANES HIT THE BUILDINGS. Thats why we need the crims scene reports. [edit on 28-5-2008 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by jthomas Variance in eyewitness testimony is normal.

' NO. this was not a variance in testimony. It was a blatant admission that they did not know what hit the Pentagon, THEY WERE TOLD LATER IT WAS A 757. Do you understand the difference?

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by jthomas Neither did we need "crime scene reports" to know that AA11 hit WTC 1 and UA175 hit WTC 7. Neither do we need "crime scene reports" to know that AA77, a Boeing 757, hit the Pentagon.

You have no evidence that AA11 hit WTC 1, and UA175 hit WTC 2 not 7. No plane hit WTC 7. You have no real evidence that AA77 hit the pentagon.

LOL. You already agreed they did, Ultima1. See post above: www.abovetopsecret.com... Now you can stop trolling.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by jthomas Variance in eyewitness testimony is normal.

' NO. this was not a variance in testimony. It was a blatant admission that they did not know what hit the Pentagon, THEY WERE TOLD LATER IT WAS A 757. Do you understand the difference?

You don't dissemble very well, Ultima1. You've already agreed that AA77 hit the Pentagon. See above post www.abovetopsecret.com... You can't backtrack now. Sorry.

Originally posted by jthomas You've already agreed that AA77 hit the Pentagon.

I never stated that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon. I have stated and keep on stating we do not have evidence that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon. Do not try to twist what i post.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by jthomas You've already agreed that AA77 hit the Pentagon.

I never stated that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon. I have stated and keep on stating we do not have evidence that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon. Do not try to twist what i post.

Oh, we all know that you didn't admit it outright, Ultima1. You screwed up in your own post without paying attention to what you were quoting. You are officially on record now. It's what happens when you can't keep track of the convolutions you've had to go through to try to dodge the fact that you know for a fact that AA77 hit the Pentagon. You're game of trolling doesn't work, Ultima1. We have you on record now.

Originally posted by jthomas Oh, we all know that you didn't admit it outright,

So you admit you lied and twisted what i posted? Still waiting for facts and evidence that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon. [edit on 28-5-2008 by ULTIMA1]

reply to post by ULTIMA1 I'm not intending to pile on here, ULTIMA....but you have still to answer the question.....IF AAL77 did not crash into the Pentagon, then where are those passengers, and crew?? The crew alone.....two pilots...Captain Burlingame, and First Officer DuBois. AND, four Flight Attendants.....where are they????? They have stayed silent all these years???? Can you really believe that? It is not logical....what in the world would make YOU desert YOUR family??? How much money would it take, for YOU to drop everything, and disappear??? Please use your logical thinking skills here!!!!!! Use your brain!!!!! What I mean is....use your inherent humanity....think about it! These are human beings! Not machines! just think about it......

Originally posted by weedwhacker [I'm not intending to pile on here, ULTIMA....but you have still to answer the question.....IF AAL77 did not crash into the Pentagon, then where are those passengers, and crew??

How many times do i have to repeat myself? It seems too many poeple just want to see what they want no matter wht is posted. I never stated Flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon, only that we have no hard evidnece since most of it has not been released. As far as the passengers and crew thers is DNA evidence that they are dead but no evindece the pasengers were in the building.

reply to post by CatHerder Very insighful article. I work in a technology field as a consultant for fortune 1000companies and can tell you from personal experience that no system, institution and environment is so fool-proof that you can stage such a spectacular attack. It was definitely a place that hit the pentagon, the most base instinct tells us that if passenger bodies were receoverd at the site, then end of any conspiracy theory. To be a bit critical....the photos you posted of a lot of wreckage were close-ups and there was no identifying object in the foreground to say they were from the pentagon crash site. Infact, one of the firefighters uniforms says Colorado fire department??????? I'm sure there is an explanation because I'm sure a plave hit the building. Peace to the world!

Originally posted by ULTIMA1 I never stated Flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon....

Oh....my....god... Roger just admitted Flight 77 hit the Pentagon? I need to add this quote to my sig...

As far as the passengers and crew thers is DNA evidence that they are dead but no evindece the pasengers were in the building.

So the passengers were mutilated elsewhere, and their remains trucked to the Pentagon, to be scattered in the debris pile?

reply to post by ULTIMA1 OK, ULTIMA.....then, where were the crew and passengers of AAL 77 killed? I am responding to your post, just above this one. The esteemed John Lear, son of the famous Bill Lear....of LearJet fame...both established pilots, of course.....famous in their own rights.... The 'famous' capt Lear, John.....said that he is personal friends with Captain Burlingame, from AAL77. John Lear, before he left ATS, said that Capt. Burlingame was alive and well....in 2007!!!!! Funny....I went to the funeral for the FO of AAL77.....for David Charlebois....he was catholic, and I went to his funeral....even though I'm NOT catholic. I attended to honor him, and his death. Seems many here just don't know how to honor the dead.....what a shame! Care to comment on the others, from AAL 77? The school children, from SE DC....on the trip of their lives, to Los Angfeles???? Care to talk about them??? It breaks my heart....there is not a human being who could kill them in could blood.....except those bastard terrorists.....who were blinded by their idiotic ideology. bastards......