9/11: A Boeing 757 Struck the Pentagon

[edit on 14-6-2006 by blatantblue]

i don't know if this was already posted (it problaby was), here you have.... www.freedomunderground.org... Turn of your lights, seat back, a get overwhelmed by the conspiracy behind it!

Originally posted by Long Lance still 3 rings, still 'heavier parts' still no questioning of the exit angle (which is opposed to the alledged trajectory) still the whole slew of wings that at first 'scar the facade' then quickly fold up and vanish through a hole (i wonder just how elastic these things are - cartoon physics?).

Not three rings, one large office space with internal walls:

The exit hole is perfectly in line with the trajectory:

The wings are hollow structures filled with tons of fuel covered with a milimeter thin layer of aluminum. The aluminum was smashed to bits upon impacting a four feet thick wall of steel, concrete, kevlar cloth, bricks and limestone. What entered the building from the wings was mainly fuel.

PS: What i find rather curious is that from time to time, posters with very special preferences appear out of thin air. wanna wager that these will fall into 'dormant' status sooner rather than later? filling pages upon pages with fillers makes me believe that there's something in this thread which is considered, well, undesirable data by some.

Oh man, you got me there. I'm really a government agent spreading disinformation. Seriously, how does it feel to be this paranoid? Apparantly you consider my contributions to the thread undesirable...

Originally posted by Dansker

Originally posted by Long Lance still 3 rings, still 'heavier parts' still no questioning of the exit angle (which is opposed to the alledged trajectory) still the whole slew of wings that at first 'scar the facade' then quickly fold up and vanish through a hole (i wonder just how elastic these things are - cartoon physics?).

The problem is that among others, shows the debris ammassed to the cneter and to the left, if it was supposed to be in line with the alledged trajectory, it would have to be to the right. why is that? why do the alledged (ridiculously small) wreckage parts punch a neat circular hole then comse to rest within what looks like less than 20 feet. ? One probable answer was given months ago, namely that nothing penetrated this far, that this hole was created later then littered with fake debris to send us off on a tangent, i posted that variant a few pages ago, i think... Either way, correct or not, you'll have to understand that the 3 rings / no rings argument is rubbish all by itself because of the support structures - reinforced concrete columns are placed too tightly to let the A/C slip through and if they weren't, somebody would have to explain all the alledgedly severed columns, and it's not me, i'd wager.

Oh man, you got me there. I'm really a government agent spreading disinformation. Seriously, how does it feel to be this paranoid? Apparantly you consider my contributions to the thread undesirable...

Don't turn my argument on its head, returning copying my previous accusation lock, stock and barrel is neither very imaginative nor very convincing, is it? what i posted is provided as-is, everybody make up his/her own mind please. tbh, i don't know why you or anyone else would feel obliged to remain glued to this thread, basically ignoring the entire site, but i do know that merely pointing it out is hardly an offense, or is it?

Originally posted by Long Lance The problem is that among others, shows the debris ammassed to the cneter and to the left, if it was supposed to be in line with the alledged trajectory, it would have to be to the right.

Well, it is to the right of the punchout hole in that picture. Please look at the diagram I posted above and keep in mind that the photographer is facing the C ring, meaning that the entry hole is through the building and to the left of where he is standing. In other words, the debris is where it should be, continuing in the the direction of the trajectory.

why is that? why do the alledged (ridiculously small) wreckage parts punch a neat circular hole then comse to rest within what looks like less than 20 feet.

Because at that point the kinetic energy was spent.

Either way, correct or not, you'll have to understand that the 3 rings / no rings argument is rubbish all by itself because of the support structures - reinforced concrete columns are placed too tightly to let the A/C slip through and if they weren't, somebody would have to explain all the alledgedly severed columns, and it's not me, i'd wager.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Again, see the diagram above. It shows the exact placement of columns, and the extent of destruction to them.

Don't turn my argument on its head, returning copying my previous accusation lock, stock and barrel is neither very imaginative nor very convincing, is it?

I don't care. You shouldn't expect originality in the response (or even courtesy and politeness) when you single out another poster for suspicion. And I stand by my assessment of your paranoia.

what i posted is provided as-is, everybody make up his/her own mind please. tbh, i don't know why you or anyone else would feel obliged to remain glued to this thread, basically ignoring the entire site,

I just stumbled upon this thread while I was involved in a minor debate about flight 77 on Fark.com. By now I've said pretty much all I have to say about the subject. I still check back once in a while out of politeness to those who may respond to my posts, but I do have a life, and it doesn't involve an obsession with conspiracy theories in general.

Originally posted by Long Lance One probable answer was given months ago, namely that nothing penetrated this far, that this hole was created later then littered with fake debris to send us off on a tangent, i posted that variant a few pages ago, i think...

If nothing penetrated that far, why would they go through the trouble of pretending it did? The scheme you're suggesting would demand the involvement, cooperation and secrecy of everyone present after the impact including firefighters and those Pentagon employees who lost their collegues and almost got killed themselves in the impact, explosion, and fire. The risks involved in extending the circle of co-conspirators that wide would jeopardize the entire alleged conspiracy beyond reason. And for what? To exagerate the damage just a little bit? Ockham's razor says: "No."

Originally posted by Dansker Well, it is to the right of the punchout hole in that picture. Please look at the diagram I posted above and keep in mind that the photographer is facing the C ring, meaning that the entry hole is through the building and to the left of where he is standing. In other words, the debris is where it should be, continuing in the the direction of the trajectory.

To me, the photo looks like it was shot at (close to) zero obliquity, in that case, the debris field certainly looks nothing like 53° to the right relative to the wall.

why is that? why do the alledged (ridiculously small) wreckage parts punch a neat circular hole then comse to rest within what looks like less than 20 feet.

Because at that point the kinetic energy was spent.

That explains absolutely nothing, besides we do (well, did) have photos of various 'stages' with 'a/c parts and without, low velocity does not lend itself to neat holes, unless you're using something with roughly the same diameter as your hole.

Either way, correct or not, you'll have to understand that the 3 rings / no rings argument is rubbish all by itself because of the support structures - reinforced concrete columns are placed too tightly to let the A/C slip through and if they weren't, somebody would have to explain all the alledgedly severed columns, and it's not me, i'd wager.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Again, see the diagram above. It shows the exact placement of columns, and the extent of destruction to them.

Look, the argument here was about the three rings or six major walls, either we accept that 'penetration capability' along with your damage illustration and all statements along these lines OR it was all open space suspended in thin air, and our statements and your pic are baseless. choose.

I don't care. You shouldn't expect originality in the response (or even courtesy and politeness) when you single out another poster for suspicion. And I stand by my assessment of your paranoia.

I used a forum tool to point something out for everyone to see, probably not the most civilzed way to do it, but it's not against the rules, afaics. PS: only the paranoid survive

Originally posted by Dansker If nothing penetrated that far, why would they go through the trouble of pretending it did?

So we can have a huge thread where everyone is running in circles

The scheme you're suggesting would demand the involvement, cooperation and secrecy of everyone present ....

It would require the placement of a cutting chage, set off at the correct moment. Don't invent ludicrous procedures just to claim implausibility

Originally posted by Long Lance To me, the photo looks like it was shot at (close to) zero obliquity, in that case, the debris field certainly looks nothing like 53° to the right relative to the wall.

You claimed the debris was to the left of the punch out hole, when it's clearly to the right:

Note: My illustration of the trajectory is probably not very accurate.

Either way, correct or not, you'll have to understand that the 3 rings / no rings argument is rubbish all by itself because of the support structures - reinforced concrete columns are placed too tightly to let the A/C slip through and if they weren't, somebody would have to explain all the alledgedly severed columns, and it's not me, i'd wager.

The only reason I have even commented on this aspect is because a lot of people seem to think that the three outer rings are seperate at the bottom, meaning that the plane would have to pass through 6 outer walls. The reality is that the three rings are connected at the two lower floors, meaning that the plane (or whatever you think hit the PEentagon) passed through one reinforced outer wall, a number of internal walls and columns, and finally one outer masonry wall. Apparantly this is news to some people, and it is certainly relevant if you want to form an opinion about what happened. I'm just providing facts. I don't know what you mean by the colums being placed too tightly. According to the official floorplans I posted above, the average distance between columns seem to be about 15-20 feet.

Look, the argument here was about the three rings or six major walls, either we accept that 'penetration capability' along with your damage illustration and all statements along these lines OR it was all open space suspended in thin air, and our statements and your pic are baseless. choose.

You are not making yourself very clear. Are you saying that you don't you believe that the floors are connected at the bottom floors? And who is talking about "open space suspended in thin air"? I'm talking about a large office space filled with columns and internal walls of undetermined material. You can see both the walls and columns in the diagram.

I used a forum tool to point something out for everyone to see, probably not the most civilzed way to do it, but it's not against the rules, afaics.

You suggested that I had ulterior motives for my posts without having the common decency to adress your suspicions directly to me. I responded by calling you paranoid and pointing out that you apparantly didn't appreciate my comments. What part of this confuses you?

PS: only the paranoid survive

Yeah, living scared must be great.

Originally posted by Long Lance It would require the placement of a cutting chage, set off at the correct moment. Don't invent ludicrous procedures just to claim implausibility

Again: Why the heck would "they" do that? It's not like anyone, particularly not in the general public, had any previous conceptions about how far a Boeing 757 would penetrate through the Pentagon. Actually most people seem surprised it got that far. It's not like, without that hole, people would be going: "Hey, that couldn't have been a 757, everybody knows one of those birds would have punched through the C-ring!" In order to plan an explosion to make that hole, they would have to know beforehand that whatever they were planning to hit the building with, wouldn't make that hole on its own. And they would also have to believe that everyone would expect a 757 to make a hole like that. And they would still have to somehow place that charge there without anyone noticing. You know that the exit hole wasn't in the part of the building being renovated, so it would have been full of people working? So, who is inventing ludicrous procedures? Edited for punctuation and spelling. Probably missed some. Oh well, time for bars and beers, it's friday night. [edit on 16-6-2006 by Dansker]

Please look at your own building map, and at a few more detailed ones, all posted in this enormous thread, and find the huge NAVY special ops room, with those 2 strange angled endwalls which housed the security entrances on both sides. Those walls are the only ones which are not parallel to all the other long walls and the corridors. Find my remarks about the trillions of dollars lost in the Pentagon budgets over decades already, which are ofcourse the trails of enormous black operations funded by the Pentagon brass over the years, and Rumsfeld addressing this issue on 10 Sept. 2001. After the following day he never uttered a word about it anymore. Also find my remarks about the coincidence that exactly the small unit of civilian accountants working on this issue, trying to find that lost public money back, were all killed. And there were no backups of their work! So that investigation could not be restarted. One of the many coincidences of that day? Also have a good look at the scheme where you can see the position where they found casualties in the rings of the Pentagon, and then re-evaluate your own last remark about the "exit" hole being in a not renovated part of the building, which thus must have been crowded with people. It was not. Also have a good look at the photos posted in this thread showing the extended damage to the last row of collumns in front of the "exit" hole. They were nearly stripped. So where did the debris travelling with such high speeds, enough to strip a row of collumns nearly bare naked, ended up at that very close C-ring inside wall, and why did it not penetrate through that wall to the outside world? Thus creating a far more extended exit hole? Also have a good look at the position of the left double row of collumns right through the whole length of 3 rings, and the right double row, which were all damaged or disappeared. This looks like there were at least 2 debris trajectories causing all that damage. Especially the double row to the left, seen from the "exit" hole, is situated far too far away from the 53° trajectory of debris in all the reports mentioned. One should suspect secondary explosions having caused that damage. Or another projectile, which I doubt btw, no one saw or mentioned it. And explain the strange smoke patterns on the opposite walls of the C-ring wall, right at the other side of the two other smoke exit holes, which are in fact doors. They are not consistent with an explosion of plane fuel inside the 3 rings. Then the 2 most left ones would be found to the left of the smoke exit holes, since the pressure front of such an explosion would smash the smoke to the left on the opposite wall. And have a good look at the photo Howard posted a few posts back, in fact you can clearly see that there are far more and thicker internal walls on the 1st and second floors than are advertised through this thread by various posters who let it seem that it were light structures made of gypsum walls and the likes. It was not the nearly empty space they like to propose. There were lots of brick walls which are far more difficult to penetrate than a lightweight gypsum wall. Bricks have a far more slowing down effect on debris.

from this post. Everyone who believes that the event of 9/11/2001 was an orchestrated one, by one or more entities, not being solely the group of muslim fanatics proposed by the officially storyline from the FBI and the US government, is constantly on the lookout for unexplainable diversions from that official storyline. For example, the delays in the departure times of the 4 planes of 9/11 added together surely have had a significant effect on the intended ideal timeline of the scenario played out on 9/11 by the perpetrators. So keep these delays in mind while reading anything about 9/11. Let's have a closer look at some of the key players on 9/11 mentioned in this TIME essay , and how they were awarded for their "outstanding performance" on 9/11 and later on. Let's start with Jane F. Garvey, who's decision to ground all civilian and military airtraffic in the whole USA, resulted in a predictable flight controllers radio-channels overflow by many, if not all, planes which were ordered to land immediately, return on the runways, or on route from overseas and ordered to return or divert to Canada or elsewhere. Most of the crews directly started to clog the available radio channels, asking for directions, and getting them back from ATC's nationwide, in that very important small time window needed by flight 77 to reach Washington unhindered and even unnoticed by radar for a substantial part of its flightpath back to the nations capital and ending up in the Pentagons westwall. REMEMBER, her decision gave the planners of 9/11 a ONE hour and six minutes timewindow where flight controllers were overloaded with data coming in and sending data out to thousand+ planes. See this post in this thread. www.apcoworldwide.com... ( Biografy of her, on her present -since 2002- employers website ) www.leadingauthorities.com... ( She's for hire now as guestspeaker for $ 5,000 to 10,000 ) www.apcoworldwide.com... www.apcoworldwide.com... (Her present director, a PR professional for big industry) Jane F. Garvey, served as the first ever five-year term 14th Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), an organization with 50,000 employees, a $13 billion annual budget, and thus she had a crucial impact on the nation's economy. The FAA regulates and oversees aviation safety and operates the largest and most complex air traffic management system in the world. During Garvey's term, the FAA successfully navigated the year 2000 transition, established a risk management approach across the entire aviation community to improve aviation safety, and achieved aggressive strides to expand the capacity and capabilities of the air traffic control system. Before becoming FAA Administrator, Garvey was Acting Administrator of the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA). She served as Deputy Administrator of FHWA from April 1993 until February 1997. FHWA, also an agency of the U.S. Department of Transportation, has an annual budget of $20 billion and works in partnership with the states to maintain the safety and efficiency of the Nation's roads and bridges. She was director of Boston Logan airport from 1991-1993, the same airport where the 2 planes took off which plunged into the 2 WTC towers, American Airlines Flight 11 and another Boeing 767, United Airlines Flight Number 175. She switched from FAA to corporate fairly fast after 9/11.

hm... www.pentagonstrike.co.uk...

Originally posted by Zaphod58 If the angle ISN'T sweep, then you better tell Boeing, because according to them the WING SWEEP of a 757 is 25 degrees. And it's not just a sweep that lets them fly closer to the speed of sound, it's the ANGLE of the sweep. The more sweep, the closer to the speed of sound. And if angle ISN'T sweep, then define sweep for us, because EVERYTHING I find on the 757 about their wing says that it's a sweep of 25 degrees. So please, enlighten us.

Well for 1 you might want to check which model has that sweep and 2 you really don't want an airliner to have a swept wing, its better for them to have the lift and stability of a straight wing. Thiers there is not reason to have the wings swept becuase an airliner does not fly close to 750 mph.

ALL 757 models have a 23 degree sweep to their wing, and ALL commercial planes have a swept wing. It's not just speed that makes you want wing sweep. However, at altitude, where you're flying at 600mph, the speed of sound is much lower, so you're going to be flying closer to it. At SEA LEVEL, you're right, they DON'T fly near the speed of sound. At 35000 feet, the speed of sound is 660mph. If you have a straight wing at 35000 feet, where you're within 60mph of the speed of sound, guess what's gonna happen. Or do you want us to believe that the speed of sound is a constant at any altitude? Or that cruise speed is only at sea level? Or maybe that 757s don't fly at 35000 feet? I'd have to say that having a swept wing would be a damn good thing if you're trying to cruise at 600mph (which 757s do) and the speed of sound is 660mph.

ok after some consideration on this subject...in my educated opionion what hit the pentagon on 911.. 1) the aircraft was indeed considerably large and traveling at a high velocity. 2) the wings (which everyone is pointing to) more than likely "shatterd" on impact the pices(very small) would then act like shrapnal 3)the building in Q is a reinforced structure to withstand high impacts, in doing so it would "spread" the impact zone so that a single area becomes impact resistant (in the case of a tank round) 4) the size of the hole and susequent damage is very probable because the nose (part of first contact) area is small thus the energy would be exorbitant (weight of plane multiplied by its velocity on an area of say 6 ft squared. ill leave that figure up to the pros. so the "small hole" that every one goes on about is consistant. think of a 9mm firearm into a steel drum. the hole is just about the size of the round. 5) once the plane broke through the main outer wall it would seem that it had an easier job tearing the rest of the place up. 6) the one thing that concerns me is that a aluminium sample has not been retrived from the wing area impact zone, and sent for analisis. boing would keep records of who they got the aluminimum from, they in turn would be able to pull up specifics on the alloy sold to boing. with computers of today that should be easy. also the engine recoverd same story, records are kept by law for everything on the engines from first developed till last day of service so dont tell me u cant find who made the partial pump found on the crash site and what engine it was fitted to. weather or not it was the 757 is a whole different story...as for witneses... phoey preception has runed all acredibility even if u could find one, 350-530mph at close range (human fps 32) err soz even some hi tec video equipment will fight to record that at an aceptable resolution(no blurs) with enough frames to accuratly draw up an conclusion what plane really was involved. this case has to be merited on scientific evedance only for any truth or untruths to be revealed

Originally posted by Dansker

Originally posted by Long Lance To me, the photo looks like it was shot at (close to) zero obliquity, in that case, the debris field certainly looks nothing like 53° to the right relative to the wall.

You claimed the debris was to the left of the punch out hole, when it's clearly to the right:

Note: My illustration of the trajectory is probably not very accurate.

PS: only the paranoid survive

Yeah, living scared must be great.

living scared IS great, because it is the only REAL way to 'live'. why do you think amusement parks are so popular? my answer: because, you get the experience of almost dying from a catastrophic event(to a human body), and yet, get to go on living! i never felt so alive as when i was working forty-five ft. over the earth, walking, or swinging a 12 lb. sledgehammer, on a 12 inch wide beam, with mr. death walking(or swinging a 12 lb. sledgehammer) every step of the way with me. that aside, why did this 'bullet' just stop in the 'midair' between the wall it just punched through(c-ring), and the next wall(b or d ring? i don't know.). why was it's trajectory seemingly unaffected by MUTLIPLE colisions with support columns INSIDE the building? think of those games 'we'(my generation, 'x', and precursors) used to make. we would put pins into a board, and then drop a steel ball bearing, and watch it BOUNCE and DEFLECT throught the MAZE of PINS, until it reached the EXIT HOLE. did it(the ball) EVER go STRAIGHT!? that's right. and the other side of the coin... does a bullet ever pass cleanly through an object and then FALL OUT OF THE AIR before it reaches the next thing in line for a bullet hole? because, that's what the 'punch out' hole shows as a 'missile behaviour'.

You forgot the 'bullet' pulled another neat trick, it simply vanished must have been a reuse of tech from 1963, magic bullets and all that. besides, the trajectory shown in the pic is a joke, obliquity of 20deg, maximum, if you drew 50, it would completely miss the pile of rubble. doesn't matter though, because the projectile would then have changed course when breaking through that final wall - magick if you don't believe it you're a scared wacko btw, who ever said i was scared? i'm far away from the DHS's reach to feel realtively safe and by that i mean like 8000miles

Ultima 1, If the centre chord line of the wing is perpendicular to the fuselage centre line (a 'T' shape) then the wing is unswept. However the centre chord line of the wing of the 757 is swept aft at an angle of 23 degrees, si it has to be a 'swept wing'. There is only one single solitary jet transport that does not feature a swept wing, that exception is the Yak-40, a trijet 40 seater. Everything else has wing sweep, the most prominently swept wing of all being the wing of the 747, an aircraft that is very definitely subsonic at all times. What pray would you define as a swept wing? The comment that 'it is just angle' makes no sense to me. Also there have been many supersonic aircraft with unswept wings; F-104, F-18, YF-23, F-5 etc etc. Finally, Mach 0.85 (the average cruising speed of an airliner) means 85% of the speed of sound. 85% is pretty close actually and certainly not 'nowhere near'. [edit on 22-6-2006 by waynos]

evidence offered of deliberate tampering with Dod photographs I saw in all the last 5 years. If accepted as solid proof, we all may thank mr Jack White for his meticulous, laborous photo studies, which will proof beyond doubt, that something is VERY wrong with heaps of official photo's offered at DoD websites, and thus there is something eerily wrong with the official 9/11 Pentagon Attack story. Be aware there are many pages on his website, keep clicking the -next page- signs at the right bottoms of the pages. Prepare to be astonished beyond comprehension : www.911studies.com... I am now at page 45, and this is really shock and awe! This man has seen the exact same anomalies as I and a few others have seen also, but he took the time and had the expertise, to put it all up in a smooth readable and viewable form. I applaude Jack for his perfectionism. www.911studies.com...