I'm a Jew and I'm against Israel. Does that make me an anti-semite?

reply to post by AllIsOne


Tell you what, you pick a country, any country in the world and I'll prove to you I can make Israel look like angels in comparism !!!

What a bunch of hypocrites some of you all are.

reply to post by bluemirage5


I don't understand what you're talking about. Who do you refer to as a hypocrite?

so don't worry if you feel you have been labeled as an anti-Semite unjustly.....here is the reason why people....
I suggest looking at ALL the posts of some of these people and looking for a common theme....
pushing the Iran war......discrediting any criticism of Israel...etc....leads you to be an anti Semite for speaking against it.....ISRAELI PROPAGANDA....live...here on ATS.....enjoy

www.alternativenews.org...

"Critics of the new program say that the information provided to student participants does not make any distinction between anti-Jewish statements and legitimate criticism of the Israeli government’s policies. Instead, program organizers say that all criticism of Israel constitutes ‘anti-Semitism’ and should be combated using cyber-warfare and propaganda."

reply to post by BRAVO949

. . . Jesus the Palestinian (not a Jew). . . .

Isaiah 53 (NLT as are all OT quotes)

1 Who has believed our message?
To whom has the Lord revealed his powerful arm?
2 My servant grew up in the Lord’s presence like a tender green shoot,
like a root in dry ground.
There was nothing beautiful or majestic about his appearance,
nothing to attract us to him.
3 He was despised and rejected—
a man of sorrows, acquainted with deepest grief.
We turned our backs on him and looked the other way..
He was despised, and we did not care..

4 Yet it was our weaknesses he carried;.
it was our sorrows[a] that weighed him down..
And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God,.
a punishment for his own sins!.
5 But he was pierced for our rebellion,.
crushed for our sins..
He was beaten so we could be whole..
He was whipped so we could be healed..
6 All of us, like sheep, have strayed away..
We have left God’s paths to follow our own..
Yet the Lord laid on him.
the sins of us all..

7 He was oppressed and treated harshly,.
yet he never said a word..
He was led like a lamb to the slaughter.
And as a sheep is silent before the shearers,.
he did not open his mouth..
.
[THE LAMB OF GOD WHO TAKES AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD].
.
8 Unjustly condemned,.
he was led away.[b].
No one cared that he died without descendants,
that his life was cut short in midstream.[c]
But he was struck down.
for the rebellion of my people..
.
9 He had done no wrong.
and had never deceived anyone..
But he was buried like a criminal;.
he was put in a rich man’s grave..
10 But it was the Lord’s good plan to crush him.
and cause him grief..
Yet when his life is made an offering for sin,.
he will have many descendants. [spiritually].
He will enjoy a long life,.
.and the Lord’s good plan will prosper in his hands..
.
11 When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish,.
he will be satisfied..
And because of his experience,.
my righteous servant will make it possible.
for many to be counted righteous,.
for he will bear all their sins..
.
12 I will give him the honors of a victorious soldier,.
because he exposed himself to death..
He was counted among the rebels..
He bore the sins of many and interceded for rebels.

2 Samuel 7:16

16 Your house and your kingdom will continue before me[a] for all time, and your throne will be secure forever.’”

Micah 5:2

A Ruler from Bethlehem
2 But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah,
are only a small village among all the people of Judah.
Yet a ruler of Israel will come from you,
one whose origins are from the distant past.

Jeremiah 23:5

5 “For the time is coming,”
says the Lord,
“when I will raise up a righteous descendant[a]
from King David’s line.
He will be a King who rules with wisdom.
He will do what is just and right throughout the land.

Isaiah 9:6-7

6 For a child is born to us,
a son is given to us.
The government will rest on his shoulders.
And he will be called:
Wonderful Counselor,[a] Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 His government and its peace
will never end.
He will rule with fairness and justice from the throne of his ancestor David
for all eternity.
The passionate commitment of the Lord of Heaven's Armies
will make this happen.

edit on 9/1/2012 by BO XIAN because: fix color parameters

reply to post by Skyfloating


Rights for homosexuals and women but not Palestinians?

I may be a liberal but I'm certainly not stupid.

Originally posted by The Sword

Rights for homosexuals and women but not Palestinians?

I may be a liberal but I'm certainly not stupid.

Please point out where I said "no rights for Palestinians".

Quote it. In this thread.

reply to post by Skyfloating


You didn't have to say it.

The headlines and the behavior of the Israeli government paint a far different picture. I still remember when Rachel Corrie was mowed down.

reply to post by BRAVO949


[ OLD TESTAMENT PROPHECIES RE JESUS THE CHRIST CONTINUED]

DOCUMENTING that the whole silliness about Jesus being a "Palestinian" is absurd to the max.

from:

www.konig.org...

See Daniel 9:24-26.
The prophet Daniel provided a chronology of events that included the revelation that the Messiah would be rejected before the destruction of the second Temple in Jerusalem. The Romans destroyed the Temple in 70 AD, about 40 years after Jesus was crucified. The Temple has never been rebuilt.

. . .

All who believe in Jesus will be saved
See John 3:16.
There are, according to some scholars, nearly 2000 prophecies in the Bible. Some of those prophecies make is clear that no matter what happens to the world, or to you, salvation is real, and you can have it. Anyone can have salvation. Salvation is guaranteed for believers, and that means forgiveness of sins and eternal life in heaven. One of the Bible verses that promises this is found in John 3:16, which says:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16 NIV)

Dan 9:24-26 NLT (as are all Scripture OT quotes)

Daniel 9:24-26

New Living Translation (NLT)

24 “A period of seventy sets of seven[a] has been decreed for your people and your holy city to finish their rebellion, to put an end to their sin, to atone for their guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to confirm the prophetic vision, and to anoint the Most Holy Place. 25 Now listen and understand! Seven sets of seven plus sixty-two sets of seven[c] will pass from the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until a ruler—the Anointed One[d]—comes. Jerusalem will be rebuilt with streets and strong defenses,[e] despite the perilous times.

26 “After this period of sixty-two sets of seven,[f] the Anointed One will be killed, appearing to have accomplished nothing, and a ruler will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple. The end will come with a flood, and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end.

The Messiah to Descend From Judah

The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff
from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and
the obedience of the nations is his.
--Genesis 49:10 (NIV)

God's Word to Moses re:

17 The LORD said to me: "What they say is good.
18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their
brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them
everything I command him.
19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself
will call him to account.
--Deuteronomy 18:17-18 (NIV)

Job Re His Redemption

I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will
stand upon the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will
see God;
27 I myself will see him with my own eyes-- I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
--Job 19:25-27 25 (NIV)

Messiah's Body will not experience decay:

7 I will praise the LORD, who counsels me; even at night my
heart instructs me.
8 I have set the LORD always before me. Because he is at my right
hand, I will not be shaken.
9 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also
will rest secure,
10 because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let
your Holy One see decay.
11 You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me
with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right
hand.
--Psalms 16:7-11 (NIV)

[TO BE CONTINUED]

reply to post by BRAVO949


[CONTINUED DOCUMENTATION FROM OLD & NT PROPHECIES THAT JESUS THE MESSIAH WAS A JEW OF THE LINE OF DAVID; THE SON OF THE FATHER--ALMIGHTY CREATOR GOD. Demonstrating that the lie from hell that Jesus was Palestinian is absurd to the max.

NOTE: NLT & NIV authorize such quoting in their copyright notice]

KIND DAVID PREDICTED CHRIST'S CRUCIFIXION IN MEDICALLY ACCURATE GRAPHIC DETAIL HUNDREDS OF YEARS BEFORE CRUCIFIXION WAS EVEN INVENTED.

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far
from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer, by night,
and am not silent.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One; you are the praise of
Israel.
4 In you our fathers put their trust; they trusted and you
delivered them.
5 They cried to you and were saved; in you they trusted and were
not disappointed.
6 But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by men and despised by
the people.

7 All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
8 "He trusts in the LORD; let the LORD rescue him. Let him
deliver him, since he delights in him."

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.
10 From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb you have
been my God.
11 Do not be far from me, for trouble is near and there is no one
to help.
12 Many bulls surround me; strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions tearing their prey open their mouths wide against
me.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks
to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.

19 But you, O LORD, be not far off; O my Strength, come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver my life from the sword, my precious life from the power
of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions; save me from the horns
of the wild oxen.
22 I will declare your name to my brothers; in the congregation I
will praise you.
23 You who fear the LORD, praise him! All you descendants of
Jacob, honor him! Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or disdained the suffering of the
afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has
listened to his cry for help.
25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied; they who seek the LORD will
praise him-- may your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the LORD and he rules over the nations.
29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship; all who go
down to the dust will kneel before him-- those who cannot keep
themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn--for he has done it.
--Psalms 22:1-31 (NIV)

The Mystery of a Priest who will be/is King

1 The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make
your enemies a footstool for your feet."
2 The LORD will extend your mighty scepter from Zion; you will
rule in the midst of your enemies.
3 Your troops will be willing on your day of battle. Arrayed in
holy majesty, from the womb of the dawn you will receive the dew
of your youth.
4 The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind: "You are a
priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."
5 The Lord is at your right hand; he will crush kings on the day
of his wrath.
6 He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead and crushing the
rulers of the whole earth.
7 He will drink from a brook beside the way; therefore he will
lift up his head.
--Psalms 110:1-7 (NIV)

Originally posted by The Sword

You didn't have to say it.

The headlines and the behavior of the Israeli government paint a far different picture. I still remember when Rachel Corrie was mowed down.

As mentioned previously, arabs have the same rights as Israelis in Israel. They date. They share restaurants. They share parts of town. They play in the same soccer clubs. They live side by side in peace. Two VERY different cultures living in peace, tolerance and harmony. Doesn't that strike you as odd? Or where you not aware of it because it is omitted in the particular ideological papers and sites you read?

reply to post by BRAVO949


[CONTINUED DOCUMENTATION THAT JESUS THE MESSIAH WAS JEWISH OF THE LINE OF DAVID AND FORETOLD ABUNDANTLY IN THE OLD TESTAMENT JEWISH SCRIPTURES.]

THE MYSTERY OF GOD'S SON DEPICTED IN PROVERBS:

Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind
in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his
cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his
name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!
--Proverbs 30:4 (NIV)

Born of a Virgin:

The Christ to be Born of a Virgin
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be
with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
--Isaiah 7:14 (NIV)

THE GOD-MAN:

The Man Who is God
6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the
government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful
Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end.v He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing
and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on
and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.
--Isaiah 9:6-7 (NIV)

LIGHT OF THE GENTILES AS WELL:

The Light of the Gentiles
5 And now the LORD says-- he who formed me in the womb to be his
servant to bring Jacob back to him and gather Israel to himself,
for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD and my God has been my
strength--
6 he says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to
restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have
kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may
bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
7 This is what the LORD says-- the Redeemer and Holy One of
Israel-- to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation, to the
servant of rulers: "Kings will see you and rise up, princes will
see and bow down, because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy
One of Israel, who has chosen you."
--Isaiah 49:5-7 (NIV)

THE MYSTERY OF THE MESSIAH AS SUFFERING SERVANT--HIS FIRST COMING:

13 See, my servant will act wisely; he will be raised and lifted
up and highly exalted.
14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him-- his
appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form
marred beyond human likeness--
15 so will he sprinkle many nations, and kings will shut their
mouths because of him. For what they were not told, they will
see, and what they have not heard, they will understand.
--Isaiah 52:13-14 (NIV)

DANIEL FORETELLS HIS ETERNAL KINGDOM:

"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a
son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the
Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.
He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

--Daniel 7:13-14 (NIV)

DARKNESS AT THE CRUCIFIXION AT NOON FORETOLD:

9 "In that day," declares the Sovereign LORD, "I will make the
sun go down at noon and darken the earth in broad daylight.
10 I will turn your religious feasts into mourning and all your
singing into weeping. I will make all of you wear sackcloth and
shave your heads. I will make that time like mourning for an only
son and the end of it like a bitter day.
--Amos 8:9-10 (NIV)

KING MESSIAH PREDICTED TO RIDE ON THE FOAL OF A DONKEY

Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem!
See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle
and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
--Zechariah 9:9 (NIV)

SOLD FOR 30 PIECES OF SILVER:

Christ to be Sold for 30 Pieces of Silver
10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the
covenant I had made with all the nations.
11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock
who were watching me knew it was the word of the LORD.
12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if
not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-- the
handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty
pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to
the potter.
--Zechariah 11:10-13 (NIV)

.
.

reply to post by BRAVO949


BO XIAN COMMENTARY on my above documentation etc.

1. There are a great number of other prophecies that could be documented about Jesus being Jewish.

2. There will be more DECEPTIONS, DELUSIONS, LIES FROM HELL seeking to tarnish, trash, refute Christ's Divinity. It has been so for 2,000 years. CERTAINLY it will be intensely so in these END TIMES.

3. Christ Himself predicted that people would kill Believers in Him thinking they did God a service in these END TIMES.

4. I left out Christ's lineage documented in the Gospels.

5. The main problem most folks--believers and unbelievers--have with Jesus--is rebellion against God. When we rebel against God, we tend to concoct every kind of rationalization imaginable.

6. It is a bit amazing to me . . . folks who are otherwise, in other areas of their lives. . . . GREAT STICKLERS FOR EXHAUSTIVE, METICULOUS, DOCUMENTED PROOF OF TRUTH . . . seemingly tend to willy-nilly instantly swallow every shallow stinking pile of nonsense about Jesus conceivable with not a micro-gram's worth of critical thinking. Interesting inconsistency/hypocrisy.

7. The same can evidently now said about ISRAEL. Israel's claim on the land extends back many centuries before Christ.

8. Nevertheless, God foretold such a conflict . . . and that Jerusalem would be a burden in the END TIMES--FOR THE WHOLE WORLD OF NATIONS. All the Nations would encompass Jerusalem and seek her destruction. God alone would be her Champion in behalf of the Children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

9. Islam includes in its founding documents exhortations to LIE in support of Islam. Lying about the holocaust and about Jerusalem is now standard fare in Islamic media and circles. Big surprise /sarc.

10. Anti-Jewish hostility from the rest of the world has long been predicted and such predictions long fulfilled in the world. The Bible indicates that such hostilities toward the children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would reach a fever pitch in these END TIMES. What better description is there of the Islamic media and leaders' tone toward Israel than "FEVER PITCH?"

11. Some have noted . . . that being "God's chosen people" has CERTAINLY had plenty of hazardous, devastating aspects. Yes, He DOES hold HIS CHOSEN to a higher standard--a standard they have rarely and only briefly partially risen to. And one of the consequences of their rebellions and idolatries against God has been to be hated of all Nations. He predicted it. It has been true for centuries.

12. Nevertheless, HE WILL REDEEM THEM AND CLEAN THEM UP--IN HIS WAYS AND HIS TIME, FOR HIS PURPOSES. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING CAN PREVENT THAT.

13. All who seek Israel's destruction will make of themselves a laughing stock and an example of what happens when a people go against God Almighty.

14. It seems that America and the whole world are currently being increasingly set-up as just such an example to ALL CREATION. Even a more or less model governmental structure in America's Republic, is being highlighted as corrupt to the core--like all the rest--apart from God being intimately involved with all the individuals and the government.

15. No wonder ALL CREATION WAITS GROANING, EAGERLY, EXPECTANTLY YEARNING for the "manifestation of the sons of God." Whatever that means, it evidently means believers helping Christ in His millennial reign cleanse the earth and creation of all hint of evil and the resulting corruptive destructiveness of rebellion against God Almighty.

16. Jewish/Israeli folks against their own people are nothing new. The Old Testament is full of traitorous destroyers of faith in God and of their own countrymen. They ALL met their just consequences.

17. Whether Gentile or Israeli by bloodline . . . all who oppose what God is doing with HIS CHOSEN will suffer the consequences of hostility to God and God's priorities. How else could it be in a multi-verse of order?

18. As Spock's counter-Spock in the alternate universe said to the original Spock--when asked what they had logically predicted for the universe built on deceit and violence, chaos--the alternate Spock noted that they predicted the utter destruction of that universe in star-date whatever. Chaos makes for a very fragile foundation for anything.

19. God has established a multi-verse to eventually end up thoroughly founded in order and serenity as well as creativity and productiveness based on LOVE OF GOD AND LOVE OF ONE ANOTHER. All else will be trashed.

.
.

reply to post by Frankidealist35


I'm a Jew and I'm against Israel. Does that make me an anti-semite?

The answer to that question hinges on your definition of "Israel"...

The People? or the Nations Policies?

One is bigotry and one is a political view.

reply to post by BO XIAN

11. Some have noted . . . that being "God's chosen people" has CERTAINLY had plenty of hazardous, devastating aspects. Yes, He DOES hold HIS CHOSEN to a higher standard--a standard they have rarely and only briefly partially risen to. And one of the consequences of their rebellions and idolatries against God has been to be hated of all Nations. He predicted it. It has been true for centuries.

12. Nevertheless, HE WILL REDEEM THEM AND CLEAN THEM UP--IN HIS WAYS AND HIS TIME, FOR HIS PURPOSES. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING CAN PREVENT THAT.

Never mind. You are a religious fanatic and should be treated with care. A mature discussion with you is impossible because you believe that the Jews are the chosen ones ...

Funny - after checking the posts on this thread I went for a walk near where I live and was walking by a store just as a woman was looking into the display window that featured a line of products made in Israel.

Even though she was a total stranger I very cautiously said. "Those products are made in Israel." She replied with an, "Oh, really?" I said, "Yes, from what I have heard they are made in the occupied territories." Then she asked me if that was a good thing or a bad thing. I tried to be as neutral sounding as possible and quietly said, "A bad thing." The woman just turned away from the window with maybe a slightly different perspective.

If I had not been on this thread and read the OP and had been reminded that many humanitarian Jews have issues with the harsh policies of the Israel government I would not have gone out of my way to attempt to dissuade a person from supporting Israeli Apartheid with her consumer dollars.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by The Sword

You didn't have to say it.

The headlines and the behavior of the Israeli government paint a far different picture. I still remember when Rachel Corrie was mowed down.

As mentioned previously, arabs have the same rights as Israelis in Israel. They date. They share restaurants. They share parts of town. They play in the same soccer clubs. They live side by side in peace. Two VERY different cultures living in peace, tolerance and harmony. Doesn't that strike you as odd? Or where you not aware of it because it is omitted in the particular ideological papers and sites you read?

If that were true it would have been pushed out in the media 24/7 but aparently they can not even fake it,

_______________________

The truth has been censored.
We are not to mention that Stalin was insane,
a control fanatic, or a mass genocidal murderer either.
Everything is controlled fodder, by way of government
institutions ('schools') and corporate funded media.

It's a sad day when you become dependent
on bullies to tell you what you 'are'.

______________________

Originally posted by Skyfloating
arabs have the same rights as Israelis in Israel. They date. They share restaurants. They share parts of town.

The cohen blood-line thinks it's above the law,
it's not about religion, rights or ethics.

Allegations of racism surround lawsuit over burial of black :
Racism over burial of black
( would the cohen's do this israel too ?)

Muslim and Christian graves vandalized by zionists:
www.cnn.com...

christian clergy attacked, spat on daily by israeli zionists :
www.haaretz.com...

Ancient Bedouin territory bulldozed by fanatical zionists :
www.independent.co.uk...

SAME RIGHTS ? ? ? SAME RIGHTS ? ? ?
_______________________

"Critics of the new program say that the information provided to student participants does not make any distinction between anti-Jewish statements and legitimate criticism of the Israeli government’s policies. Instead, program organizers say that all criticism of Israel constitutes ‘anti-Semitism’ and should be combated using cyber-warfare and propaganda."


Interesting point - thank God they are not good at propaganda. The Zionists are incapable of being moderate. They attack small issues as zealously as huge issues.

The fact that they will never concede a point ever knocks thier credibility down to zero.

I have heard some people say they wear the accusation of anti-Semite as a badge of honor.

Originally posted by newyorkee
so don't worry if you feel you have been labeled as an anti-Semite unjustly.....here is the reason why people....
I suggest looking at ALL the posts of some of these people and looking for a common theme....
pushing the Iran war......discrediting any criticism of Israel...etc....leads you to be an anti Semite for speaking against it.....ISRAELI PROPAGANDA....live...here on ATS.....enjoy

www.alternativenews.org...

"Critics of the new program say that the information provided to student participants does not make any distinction between anti-Jewish statements and legitimate criticism of the Israeli government’s policies. Instead, program organizers say that all criticism of Israel constitutes ‘anti-Semitism’ and should be combated using cyber-warfare and propaganda."

edit on 9-1-2012 by newyorkee because: bite me

reply to post by Skyfloating


Why are you so adamant about towing the line on Israel?

You believe what you want and I'll believe what I want.

But the truth is somewhere in the middle.