Jesus Christ is the son of the one and only God, our creator.

I'm sorry, I'm kind of butting in here, but I've been reading this thread all the way through. As a Christian who has been an atheist and still is so full of questions, I have to say that site, www.evilbible.com, is one of the more articulate and better presented arguments for atheistic skepticism that I've seen. The woman who put that site together did a great job pulling together all the contradictions and crazy things that honestly, give even a believer moments where I just throw the book down in sheer exasperation.

It's hard for me because I don't just believe, I'm certain. God in all manifestations of the trinity has been very generous in revealing his existence and love for me. If I were to tell all the miracles of personal revelation I've had, I'd be laughed off the forum by some. Others who have had their own revelation would understand though.

But I've got to admit there are some foul sticking points in the Bible and that site lays them bare and I'd love to discuss that. That site even left out a couple of stories that appalled me back in Bible school and helped set me on the path of atheism along with the fake Christian behavior that put me off. One story that had me reeling was when God had his people trick another people into thinking they would be accepted as brethren if they agreed to have all their males be circumcised. These men agreed, and while they were weak from the procedure, God had his people slay them.

Then there are instances when God seems to encourage a level of misogyny we are horrified to see practiced by Muslims today. Can anyone look at the things the God of the Old Testament did and not be seriously horrified and wonder what must have got lost in the compilation and translation of the Bible to get us from that scary bloodthirsty and tricky being to this God who loved us so much he sent us his son and the Holy Spirit? Again, I know these gifts personally, albeit in a freshman sort of way compared to many of you here. So I know which God I worship.

But I think we do unbelievers and new believers a serious disservice if we don't seriously try to examine and explain the things that Evil Bible site points out. If we are going to be knocking each other over the head with quotes from it, we need to talk about where the Bible seems a bit "off " and why. Personally I think those of you who are arguing are all right, because the Holy Spirit has caused you to fasten on the best interpretation that is meant to propel you as a unique individual forward to where you should be. Some of you are best developed by emphasizing the power of faith in forgiveness. Others by focusing on deed and lifestyle. You aren't going to agree with one another, but your God is ministering to you as individuals. Maybe at a different stage in life you will have a different perspective and finally see some truth in the other person 's take on things.

reply to post by SheeplFlavoredAgain
I personally could get involved in a sane discussion on the Bible and am trying to study into some serious critical type books on the Bible, and I mean from a Christian point of view but being realistic about what exactly it is they are looking at.

reply to post by SheeplFlavoredAgain


First, I think it is important to note that God did not order Simeon and Levi to kill the Schechemites. They did this of their own volition because of the disrespect they felt via their little sister's rape despite their father's peaceful deal with the Schechemites to be circumcised for to become as one people.

Secondly, nowhere is there any hint that God himself or Christ are misogynists. In fact, God is respecter of no man but even so God created us, and He orders us righteously. It is we, mankind, who illustrate misogyny not our Father or Christ.

I've never read the evilbible thing but if you yourself care to present an argument for a cause, perhaps search out the full extent of the information available before you go accusing God and convincing yourself of biblical fallacy where there truly is none.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Cain warred in himself with anger, jealousy, and wrath. All of which are spiritual/emotional/metaphysical in nature and all of which we all fight or give in to even unto today.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff


I'm not accusing God of anything. I said I know God in my life and he has been nothing but kind and generous to me. It's the depiction of God in the old testament I find disturbing and hard to reconcile with the God I see working with love and justness in my life.

The entire Evil Bible site is full of interesting points to discuss, whether one is a Christian or an atheist. I've been fortunate to have been both and have both perspectives. I treasure the faith and certainty I now hold but I respect that atheists have their doubts and hostilities and I'd be interested in seeing at least some of their arguments addressed. As some have kindly already done, by the way, and thank you to those people.

But that site makes an interesting point by point presentation. I mentioned misogyny and so I'll post a link to that site's argument that God has, in backing the Jews almost unconditionally and putting no limits on certain of their actions, like cases of rape, he seems to condone it. Here is the link, in sorry but I have difficulty on my iPad properly reproducing and formatting quotes. It's best to just read what the author has to say in it's entirety anyway. www.evilbible.com...

I'm a believer and a female raising a daughter of my own to also be a believer. But I do have to cherry pick through the Bible as I teach her about God. Someday she will be reading the whole thing by herself and I don't want her to go through the experience I had, a young girl reading about endless slaughter and burning of innocent animals so God can smell them and all the rapes and incest and all the other horrible things being done by people whom God blesses and elevates anyway just because they are Jewish and all the unlucky other people are dehumanized because they happen to be born to a tribe of pagans. Then taking my questions to my pastors to please explain the meaning of it all and how it fits in with the God who in the new Testament wants us to love one another as we love ourselves ... Only to be told basically I'm ignorant and don't understand. No kidding! duh. That's why I was asking those who spent all those years getting degrees to explain it to an ignorant teenager. Now here I am 45 years old and I'm still asking and getting the same answers that I am willfully ignorant amd misunderstanding.

Yes, I know how to read the Bible with the guidance of the Holy Spirit but it has taken me thirty years of a hard slog through life to get to this level of understanding that that's how I'm supposed to consult it. Meanwhile I was a novice baby Christian told by my church what a virtue it was to read this book cover to cover. I tried and the endeavor nearly destroyed my faith. It took the living God himself through our Shepherd Christ to bring me back by communicating directly to me. Maybe that's how it is supposed to work. But for now unless this discussion goes in a direction to demonstrate to me that the Bible is unflawed in its cover to cover presentation of God, I have to think something got tampered with. Or maybe ny head is not in the right place and I'm just a lousy reader. Hey, I'm not proud I admit that possibility and am open to discussion and edification.

I'm going to apologize in advance, I already see in my post preview I have some typos. I can not scroll in my edition of the browser to make the needed corrections. I hope everyone can read past them.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I'd be interested in knowing what books of this nature you have read or are considerimg.

I did start reading the Apocrypha online and i was almost finished with an account of God's relationship with Adam and Eve right after they were expelled from Eden. It was the most remarkable story that I wonder why it was God or Man's choice to omit it from the Bible. I would guess it was God's call, due to the account not being found until well after the Bible was compiled. And I don't know if it is true or not, but it reads true to the heart more than the majority of the OT does, because It depicts a loving, forgiving, patient heavenly father, the God I know and love every day and teach my daughter to seek.

This God in the Apochryphal book of Adam and Eve explains to Adam and Eve why he will later come to earth as his own begotten son, and it has nothing to do with needing to spill blood because he is some kind of vampire who needs a fix of that sort of thing to call it even. But because he is as pained by the fallen state their free will choice led them to and so he will experience their fall as they did, minus sinning, leaving perfection to incarnate in a meat suit and as their direct descendent, experience our sorrows and pain and death and in that way take on our exile for himself to reunite with us and reconcile and bring humanity back full circle. At least that is how I understood the covenant he made with Adam and Eve. Here is the actual chapter sacred-texts.com...

I also read all or most of Enoch. What I found interesting about that story was that when we face our final judgement, the animals over whom we had stewardship will get to speak and present evidence on whether we were good stewards or not. It's understood we kill and eat and make use of animals but whether we did so with respect and humanely will be discussed. As an animal lover and rescuer of strays I was touched that, if this depiction of God is true, animals have not been forgotten in the great scheme and that we will be held accountable of our treatment of them. Again, this represents a side of God I can relate to when I see how he has touched my life with the animals he has brought into it.

It's been awhile since I read some of this stuff. I don't know what to make of it, to take it as seriously as the Bible or not.

I'm sorry my posts are such large walls of text. I am largely finished presenting my positions and explaining why I have the questions I do. I'm really hoping to returning to quietly reading the more advanced and articulate member posts I've been enjoying so far.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

Cain warred in himself with anger, jealousy, and wrath. All of which are spiritual/emotional/metaphysical in nature and all of which we all fight or give in to even unto today.

An internal spiritual warfare which everyone probably understands unless they are complete sociopaths.
I think the other poster I was replying to meant some sort of cosmic war.

reply to post by SheeplFlavoredAgain

I don't know what to make of it, to take it as seriously as the Bible or not.

Seriously as an artifact, I would say. A snapshot of what some people believed at that particular time and useful for putting history into context.

If you want a recommendation for a book to look at, I could give an example of the sort of thing I think is a useful way to look at the New Testament.
Amazon
Jesus and Paul Reconnected: Fresh Pathways Into an Old Debate.
They have a preview feature where you can read big chunks of it at least to see how they are examining the text and it would show the way I try to make comparisons to figure out exactly what is going on in the message being presented in the Bible.
If you follow the link you can see right now there is a copy for sale used for a reasonable price which is what I try to do.
I got a email from amazon that a commentary on Mathew I had ordered was canceled because the seller was "out of stock" which seems weird considering it was a used book and should have had physical possession of it before they put it up for sale. I think they will put it up on multiple web sites like Barns and Noble so they might not have updated the Amazon info after they had already sold the same book on the other site. Anyway, the point is that I had ordered that particular book because it was at what I thought was a cheap price and in Good condition. I ordered a new one which was like four dollars more but about ten dollars less than the normal Amazon price.

reply to post by SheeplFlavoredAgain


In the beginning when God made clothes for adam and eve to cover their nakedness, don't you know he shed blood in order to make those clothes and is why he required blood sacrifice from the very beginning. Did you think that was just something made up b/c He like's bloodshed? hardly.

Too, i read those 10 "interesting" viewpoints on murder, rape, and misogyny and I think it's important to note that not only were all of them taken out of full context but they're not all commandments from God and it seems as though we forget too, that no one is innocent. Also, in none of the arguments does God condone rape. The arguer's notes claim that we have to assume rape occurred. And when God does order wrath, it is His Judgment for the sins the people are committing, not just against non-israelites but against the israelites who turn their back on Him too.

None of those arguments are even close to proving the claims of a raping, murdering, unrighteously judging, blood-lusting creator. Anyone who has read their Bible would know how utterly absurd and misguided those "interesting" claims truly are and it troubles me when someone who claims to be a reader of the word helps propitiate such disgusting garbage. Incest? where? Do you have a specific problem with something or does evilbible.com sum you up so you dont have to present your arguments?

I hear a feminist who wants answers from men after she decided long ago God's Word was too unrighteous to search for herself.

Having to have this conversation with a believer makes me sad.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff


I'm a middle aged housewife, hardly Gloria Steinhem material. If I make you sad, how do you think your hostile tone makes me feel? God has always welcomed my questions, why can't you? I give up hope of getting any calm non confrontational answers from you in this thread. I hardly think the Alpha and Omega who has a healthy following of educated believers feels threatened I posed some longstanding questions on a small forum thread. I will indeed just take these questions to God in prayer, as I probably should have done, rather than expecting fellow Christians to kindly guide me toward better understanding. It has rarely worked for me in the past, with the exception of my uplifting dialogue with Colbe on another thread, (bless you, Colbe for your loving patience), and the kind post above yours directing me to further reference material. But generally, yes, this confrontational tone is what I've come to expect. I ask humbly with sincere desire to know and instead get told I'm a huge disappointment as a Christian. Thank you so much. I told you I'm a baby Christian. I'm learning. No, I don't know that God shed blood to clothe humanity. I never picked up on that in my readings. I'm not the best reader, I do miss things and I do misunderstand things. That's why I tried to go to Bible study in my youth. Any time I asked a question that was even remotely not flattering subject matter I got shut down and got a lot of self righteous attitude implying I was not worthy to discuss.

I KNOW I'm not worthy. Don't rub it in. If you know something I don't, please be kinder about it. No sighing and rolling your eyes at me and pretending I am a tragedy tonthe faith. If God does not like my questions rest assured God will let me know. He will judge me. Not you, okay. Jeepers!

reply to post by jmdewey60


Thank you so much for the links, JMDewey60. I appreciate consideration to costs, yes I am in a tight budget.

To others, I'm not trying to disprove the Bible or render it negligible I'm trying to make the most of my opportunity to present it as a resource to the child I am raising and to myself as the Christian I'd like to become before I die and face my judgement.

reply to post by SheeplFlavoredAgain
According to Wikipedia, the version you linked to are very bad translations and based on bad manuscripts.
It gives the titles to the better versions listed below.

For more modern translations see the standard modern editions:
J. H. Charlesworth, ed. Old Testament Pseudepigrapha 2 Vols.
W. Schneemelcher, ed. New Testament Apocrypha 2 Vols.

Originally posted by yourboycal2
If Jesus christ is the son of God ,

Why do so many christians call out to jesus instead of to god ?

Wouldn't you worship god over his son ?

Jesus gets far more attention then god does. Why?

Why do some even confuse jesus as god ?

luke 19:27 = not your friend. nor gods son.

numbers 23 19

God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?

Cool, so you can pull random sh*t out of the bible for your own purposes, whoopie. Atypical atheist trick to take an entire chapter and print 1 verse and ignore the entire chapter and book which defines the context for that verse

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff


I just realized something you said to me that I don't understand. God shed blood for us to make us, clothes us in the flesh so to speak. Okay how does it follow from that, that he needs blood sacrifice from animals (as portrayed in several books in the OT)? Or am I misunderstanding you completely on that, I'm not trying to engage in a fight, I am asking for clarification of what you posted. That part always trips me up.

And I was raised up primarily in a very literal Southern Baptist church, mostly on KJV of the Bible. They presented creation to mean we were literally raised up from dirt and got life breathed into us by God. I've read different other interpretations since then but don't recognize what you posted, I still can't find nor remember anything about blood shed in our creation. When I asked my pastors about why sacrifices were required I was told it was symbolic of our devotion to God and to show it by giving up that which was meaningful to us.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Oh thank you again. I do appreciate you pointing that out. I think working through inadequate translations, even of the Bible, has been a lot of my battle.

reply to post by SheeplFlavoredAgain

I was saying you can look at the preview of that one book which is a good book if you are into that method of study. I am but it may not be for everyone but I thought you might want to check it out and if seems like a topic you are concerned about you may want to consider buying it. I personally find it to be of very critical importance and fundamental. But the other thing to keep in mind is that real scholarly and credible works do not just say, 'Here it is and this is what you should believe.' Books like that you want to avoid.

Originally posted by SheeplFlavoredAgain
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Oh thank you again. I do appreciate you pointing that out. I think working through inadequate translations, even of the Bible, has been a lot of my battle.

What I mainly use for Bible reading is NETBible which gives a pretty good rendering and also gives you the other versions along with the original language and another useful thing is the translator's notes which are useful when it comes to things like there being alternate readings, meaning different versions of manuscript.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Wow, thank you so much for the Net Bible link. I have it open on another page on my IPad. It will take me a couple days to get used to, as I've always been used to reading the Bible in a regular printed page way. I had a Bible app before but it was hard to use due to a poorly thought out interface and it was prone to freezing. I think this one will suit me very well and prove quite helpful.

I now have excellent resources to start with. That should keep me busy and out of Fripped 's hair for awhile.

I do apologize to other participants in this thread. It seems my butting in might have caused the discussion to derail. I'm very sorry for that, no intrusion was intended. I will now take up further study and pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit to sort it all out. I'm apparently missing a communication chip to enable me to engage in non offensive discussion with my fellow humans so I'll drop out of the attempt for now. I'm not even referring to the unfortunate butting of heads in this thread, as I indicated I didn't have much luck in church either. I may need to review how I ask questions with a very articulate and witty friend of mine and see if she can help me learn to rephrase my questions in a more productive way, Goodness knows I never meant to seem to accuse my God, just the version of historical text I have spent a lifetime trying to decipher. It may have been rendered plainly for most others but in my case, it's work.

reply to post by SheeplFlavoredAgain

It seems my butting in might have caused the discussion to derail.

That is probably more of an illusion than anything, where these threads never seem to go very far anyway.
Usually when threads go on and on is when it is controversial and an argument ensues.

I'm apparently missing a communication chip to enable me to engage in non offensive discussion with my fellow humans so I'll drop out of the attempt for now.

Another illusion, where some people are a little antagonistic but it is not you, and I kind of have a feel for that, being a sort of veteran of this type of discussion.