Fighter Planes? Please. Sukhoi! This discussion is over

The sukhoi fighters are nothing more than upgrades on a dated design from the early 1970's that was built in response to the f-15 (same for Mig-29 but its didnt have as long of legs). The new s-37 will never be built because of price unless it is exported to China or India The electronics are so bad that a Game Boy Advance has more computing power.

So yeah Sukhoi does rule.....the garbage bin.

The F/a-22 is the Best fighter in the world even though it wont enter service till a couple of month, but non the less its impressive. It has stealth and superior avionics over the sukhoi. P.S. devil the YF23 is ugly and not better than the Raptor that is why it wasn't chosen.

Originally posted by roniii259
The new s-37 will never be built because of price unless it is exported to China or India

The electronics are so bad that a Game Boy Advance has more computing power.

So yeah Sukhoi does rule.....the garbage bin.

1. wrong. listen people, its f* technology demonstrator. technology testing is done, so is su-47!
i'm waiting for pak-fa, 2006/8.

2. where you came from?? russians have some pretty good electronics/computers.
berkut was build to test some of the finest electronics (fly-by-wire... etc.)

3. garbage bin... you got yours kicked in india, su-30, remember?
and also, that was export version of su-30.

[edit on 13-9-2004 by titus]

Originally posted by titus
[3. garbage bin...

you got yours kicked in india, su-30, remember?

and also, that was export version of su-30.
[edit on 13-9-2004 by titus]

Actually Titus, there is evidence that the whole fight was as setup to make the case for more Raptors. They were not equiped with the new radars and they were outnumbered.

Originally posted by titus
3. garbage bin...

you got yours kicked in india, su-30, remember?

and also, that was export version of su-30.

[edit on 13-9-2004 by titus]

Again Titus, - that was done with outdated Radar. Thus, it was not indicative of true F-15 performance. Do your homework, and realise that the US was doing this because they were allowing Inias pilots in their planes and also to get more Raptors (A plane no one will be able to touch for the next 10-15 years, at which point there will be a 5.5gen Raptor).

The Russian-built Sukhoi Su-30MK, the high-performance fighter being exported to India and China, consistently beat the F-15C in classified simulations, say U.S. Air Force and aerospace industry officials.

In certain circumstances, the Su-30 can use its maneuverability, enhanced by thrust-vectoring nozzles, and speed to fool the F-15's radar, fire two missiles and escape before the U.S. fighter can adequately respond. This is according to Air Force officials who have seen the results of extensive studies of multi-aircraft engagements conducted in a complex of 360-deg. simulation domes at Boeing's St. Louis facilities.


"The Su-30 tactic and the success of its escape maneuver permit the second, close-in shot, in case the BVR [beyond-visual-range] shot missed," an Air Force official said. Air Force analysts believe U.S. electronic warfare techniques are adequate to spoof the missile's radar. "That [second shot] is what causes concern to the F-15 community," he said. "Now, the Su-30 pilot is assured two shots plus an effective escape, which greatly increases the total engagement [kill percentage]."

THE SCENARIO in which the Su-30 "always" beats the F-15 involves the Sukhoi taking a shot with a BVR missile (like the AA-12 Adder) and then "turning into the clutter notch of the F-15's radar," the Air Force official said. Getting into the clutter notch where the Doppler radar is ineffective involves making a descending, right-angle turn to drop below the approaching F-15 while reducing the Su-30's relative forward speed close to zero. This is a 20-year-old air combat tactic, but the Russian fighter's maneuverability, ability to dump speed quickly and then rapidly regain acceleration allow it to execute the tactic with great effectiveness, observers said.

If the maneuver is flown correctly, the Su-30 is invisible to the F-15's Doppler radar--which depends on movement of its targets--until the U.S. fighter gets to within range of the AA-11 Archer infrared missile. The AA-11 has a high-off-boresight capability and is used in combination with a helmet-mounted sight and a modern high-speed processor that rapidly spits out the target solution.

Positioned below the F-15, the Su-30 then uses its passive infrared sensor to frame the U.S. fighter against the sky with no background clutter. The Russian fighter then takes its second shot, this time with the IR missile, and accelerates out of danger.

"It works in the simulator every time," the Air Force official said. However, he did point out that U.S. pilots are flying both aircraft in the tests. Few countries maintain a pilot corps with the air-to-air combat skills needed to fly these scenarios, said an aerospace industry official involved in stealth fighter programs.

Those skeptical of the experiments say they're being used to justify the new Aim-9X high-off-boresight, short-range missile and its helmet-mounted cuing system, the F-22 as an air superiority fighter and, possibly, the development of a new long-range air-to-air missile that could match the F-22 radar's ability to find targets at around 120 mi. They contend that the Su-30MK can only get its BVR missile shot off first against a large radar target like the F-15. While it's true that the Su-30 MK would not succeed against the stealthy F-22 or F-35, neither would it regularly beat the nonstealthy (but relatively small radar cross section) F-16 or F/A-18E/F, they said. These analysts don't deny the F-22's value as an air-to-air fighter, but say the aircraft's actual operational value will be greatest in the penetrating strike, air defense suppression and electronic jamming roles.

At the same time, there may be more to the simulations than justifying new weaponry, say European analysts. Also at play are some tactical wrinkles being developed for the more effective use of new Russian missile versions.


The combination of Su-30 and R-27ER/ET (NATO designation AA-10), flown and fought in a competent fashion, also represents a significant threat. Even though the R-27ER is only a semiactive radar-guided missile, the extra maneuvering capability resulting from the large motor is a significant improvement over the basic R-27. Basic Russian air force doctrine has long suggested following a semi-active missile launch immediately with an IR missile launch, such as the R-27ET. Theory has it that the target aircraft's crew will be occupied spoofing the inbound radar missile, only to fall to the second missile.

The R-27ER, while only semiactive, also outperforms the baseline R-77 ( AA-12) in terms of kinematics. The R-77 motor has a simple, and short, burn profile, which has resulted in disappointing performance, piquing the Russian air force's interest in developing the K-77M rather than fielding the basic AA-12 in any numbers. The K-77M (K denotes a missile still in development, while R reflects an inventory weapon) is an upgraded R-77 with improvements that include a larger motor with a burn sequence profiled to increase range.

The oft-touted, but yet-to-be-fielded, R-27EA active variant of the AA-10 could further enhance the Su-30's capabilities, were an export customer to buy the derivative. In terms of one-on-one combat, the second-generation Flanker family presents a considerable threat to aircraft not designed from the outset as low observable, unless they are capable of extended-range BVR missile engagements. For instance, this threat drove the British selection of a rocket-ramjet missile to equip the Eurofighter.

Source : vayu-sena.tripod.com...

Originally posted by WestPoint23
P.S. devil the YF23 is ugly and not better than the Raptor that is why it wasn't chosen.

dude its sexy smooth, curved
also it only won because it was cheaper,and turns better WOW! man i can really see the logic there.

Stealth spy before getting too happy about the answer me this how old is it? That is why we are getting the F/A-22 when the Raptor enters service the sukhoi pilots need to start asking themselves id my ejection seat reliable, remember the fight demonstration where a single raptor took down 5 F-15 at the same time without the F-15 even firing a shot at it.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
sukhoi pilots need to start asking themselves id my ejection seat reliable

remember the fight demonstration where a single raptor took down 5 F-15 at the same time without the F-15 even firing a shot at it.

1. dont worry, their e-seats are VERY reliable...

2. f-22 won cuz there were no s-400s around


s-400 range - 400 Km
s-500 range - 3,500 Km

both s-400 and s-500 counter stealth aircraft

S-500, if deployed, would outperform the S-400 as well as the U.S. Patriot Advanced Capability-3 system.

In April 2001, however, Russian President Vladimir Putin announced the future exportation of the S-500 to Europe and elsewhere in order to counter U.S. efforts to build a NATO-wide missile defense network

now, thats something for US to think about twice


anyways, about sukhoi. they DO make more and better 'bangs' for buck

More and more every day I learn. Just today, after reading some posts.
I quote Intelgurl, as she makes out many awsome points.

Since an F-22 IS a 5th gen fighter, I'm sure there are plenty of pilots in the world who would not care to fly against the Raptor. No other country currently has a gen 5 fighter on the assembly lines.

The F-22 is the only 5th generation fighter on the assembly lines, so far nothing is going on with other countries.

Dick Mather project manager at Lockheed-Martin has this to say regarding the stealth of the F-22...

"How large the F-22 Raptor appears on radar is classified and depends on the quality of the radar. However, it can be said that the F-22 doesn't appear on even the most sophisticated radar systems until it is almost too late to shoot. "You might get your sights up and maybe get a shot, or maybe not, because that...(Raptor) is "ZOOM!" right through your field of view..." then it disappears off the screen.

S-500 we would assume has sophisticated radar right? To bad it cannot detected the F-22.

Paul Metz, the first test pilot to fly the F-22 described an exercise in which the pilot of a fully updated F-15 with the latest avionics on board was told that Metz was approaching head on in an F-22. The F-15's updated radar failed to find the Raptor.
"The first time he got a read on me was visually, when I flew right over the top of him..."
Paul Metz, USAF Ret., former Lockheed-Martin Chief Test Pilot

This right here shows that the most advanced radar made, cannot detect the F-22 until it is too late.

As my thought, the S-47 is being compared to the JSF, not the F-22


regards,
Laxpla

[edit on 18-9-2004 by Laxpla]

Originally posted by titus

Originally posted by WestPoint23
sukhoi pilots need to start asking themselves id my ejection seat reliable

remember the fight demonstration where a single raptor took down 5 F-15 at the same time without the F-15 even firing a shot at it.

1. dont worry, their e-seats are VERY reliable...

2. f-22 won cuz there were no s-400s around

s-400 range - 400 Km
s-500 range - 3,500 Km

both s-400 and s-500 counter stealth aircraft

S-500, if deployed, would outperform the S-400 as well as the U.S. Patriot Advanced Capability-3 system.

In April 2001, however, Russian President Vladimir Putin announced the future exportation of the S-500 to Europe and elsewhere in order to counter U.S. efforts to build a NATO-wide missile defense network

now, thats something for US to think about twice

anyways, about sukhoi. they DO make more and better 'bangs' for buck

It will probably be another failed Russian counter-system.

Everyone forgets that the Faptor is a high altitude aircraft, and that most SAM systems are used to detect non-stealthy planes close to the ground trying to use the terrain to avoid detection, and are not nearly as efective as a high stealth plane very high up. also thanks to the higher effective range and less friction, the Raptor's weapons have much more advantage than the lower altitude Sukhois, and the Mig-25/ Mig-31 would easily be detected an destroyed before becomming a threat, and the Raptor can easily use its superior agility if all else fails.

If only a new long range missile could be developed to make max use of the Raptor's abilities, it could take on an entire squadron with one plane!

Originally posted by titus
3. garbage bin...

you got yours kicked in india, su-30, remember?

and also, that was export version of su-30.

[edit on 13-9-2004 by titus]

Firstly, about the air exercise in india the indians did not use any su-30 aircraft , infact they happened to use the mirage2000 fighters and mig21's.Even in the one in Alaska they didn't get their su-30 coz they consider it as their most potent air dominance fighter and didnt want to expose it.
(wonder why as the russians are begging people to buy it and would show it to the US if it wanted)
Also the US were outnumbered in the air exercise.

About that part that the indian or for that fact chinese su-30 are anything but your off the line su-30 that is not true, the indian air force has their su-30's with a advanced radar and avionics(they dont say exactly what parts of their avionics-targeting,navigation,..etc so had to tell if it the entire package or just components. Ia sssume it as only componenets).
While the chinese have surely stripped it down, ravaged its avionics and virtually rebuilt it to suit their needs(I would bet that they changed their electronics and maybe even some of the engine components to meet their needs. The chinese are very secretive about their weapons and once a su-30 is delivered to china god knows what those guys do to it.)

In the end a superior aircraft gives only a head start in a dog fight , only a superior pilot would win.

[edit on 18-9-2004 by IAF101]

There will be always a use for JSFs. They can be used by private pilots in the distant future (the 70s)
Play DXIW

Also, with the Raptors intergated EMP radar, I would like to see the Raptor loose in a dog fight. Hell, no need for missles!

In a dogfight an EMP radar would not give any advantage .Even though the Raptor can outperform the su-30 in turning radius it banks too fast and its pilots would tire easily in contrast with the su-30 with its slower turning radius. The su-30 pilots would be able to fight longer with greater concentration thus proving more capable.(A aircraft only is as good as its pilot)Also the su-47 is supposedly also to have vectored thrust similar to that of the Raptor.
USAF no doubt is the most potent air force in the world yet its quality of pilots is infact not upto its reputation.The RAF has THE most extensively trained pilots of all ,closely followed by probably the Isreali Air Force

Originally posted by IAF101
In a dogfight an EMP radar would not give any advantage .Even though the Raptor can outperform the su-30 in turning radius it banks too fast and its pilots would tire easily in contrast with the su-30 with its slower turning radius. The su-30 pilots would be able to fight longer with greater concentration thus proving more capable.(A aircraft only is as good as its pilot)Also the su-47 is supposedly also to have vectored thrust similar to that of the Raptor.
USAF no doubt is the most potent air force in the world yet its quality of pilots is infact not upto its reputation.The RAF has THE most extensively trained pilots of all ,closely followed by probably the Isreali Air Force

I think you are a bit off on pilot training. It's more like:

1. USAF/USN

2. Israeli Air Force

3. Luftwaffe/RAAF

4. RAF

This is just on PILOT training.

But the statement that Sukhoi earns money on export is truth
Remember that I cannot think of a time when Su-22 served in the Soviet air forces and Su-22 was widely exported to Poland, Afghanistan and other countries.
Su-27 was sold to India; Su-30 to China and Indonesia (but Indonesia called the purchase off)

Originally posted by Aelita
I kinda think that this discussion is pointless in that any piece of tech has strengths and weaknesses, especially when advanced. Even comparing cars of the same approximate class is pretty much futile. What is better, a VW or a Honda?

a Honda, I live quite close to Warton in Lancashire and see the typhoon in the air all the time, it's one hell of an aircraft it will be a winner, ok it cost s money so what it's worth it, and we need it, I'd rather spend shedloads'a money on defence than spend it on harbouring half the worlds asylum seekers

I think you are a bit off on pilot training. It's more like:

1. USAF/USN

2. Israeli Air Force

3. Luftwaffe/RAAF

4. RAF

This is just on PILOT training.

Hockeyguy, is this backed up by any facts or is it merely your own perception.

Obviously I disagree but there's no point arguing the toss with you about this if either (a) it is your mindset and you wont be budged, or (b) you have facts to back it up which will make me look silly