Fighter Planes? Please. Sukhoi! This discussion is over

Originally posted by Hockeyguy567


Dollar for dollar, the F-22 is superior.

how?
the F22 had a smaller range,payload and speed. it also has a larger signature than the YF23. dolllar for dollar the YF23 is better.

Although the politics of problem with B-2 production may have had something to do with it, the paper proposal Northrop submitted was more costly than the Lockheed one. According to the official air force statement at time of selection it was announced that the F-22 offered slightly better performance at a better cost giving the true better value.

I think u got a chip on your shoulder concerning the US,whats so 'fantastic' about the s-37?

Originally posted by MPJay
According to the official air force statement at time of selection it was announced that the F-22 offered slightly better performance at a better cost giving the true better value.

Yeah, and now because rising price tag amount of Raptors have been cutted down.
So Northrop just may have given realistic/real price tag instead of using cheaper tag just for getting deal. (and telling real price later)

The main problem is the more you cut a production run, the price per copy increases exponentially, not only do you have to keep in mind of basic development costs, you have training, infrastructure and many other factors. The reasons the production run was cut down was the same as many other weapon systems developed in that era, money was shifted elsewhere and they had to live with it. Several DoD programs have been cut or outright killed, some like the A-12 Navy attack plane and the Comanche recce-attack heli were for development reasons, some were done just because priorities had shifted. Much the same has happened in Russia, for all their worth, MAPO MiG and Sukhoi have found several of their projects sidelined and/or cancelled, so its not just a problem we have here.

Originally posted by E_T

Originally posted by MPJay
According to the official air force statement at time of selection it was announced that the F-22 offered slightly better performance at a better cost giving the true better value.

Yeah, and now because rising price tag amount of Raptors have been cutted down.
So Northrop just may have given realistic/real price tag instead of using cheaper tag just for getting deal. (and telling real price later)

I also think something like that might have happened to the YF-23. Has Northtrop even got a fighter contract since the F-5 Freedom Fighter ?

I think Lockheed is great but I think Northtrop gets screwed out of some good contracts like the YF-23

Did Northrop get a contract for the F-5? I thought they were all built for export. Unless maybe the USAF bought them for aggressor training? I think the last front line Northrop fighter in US service was the F-89 Scorpion

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by Hockeyguy567


Dollar for dollar, the F-22 is superior.

how?
the F22 had a smaller range,payload and speed. it also has a larger signature than the YF23. dolllar for dollar the YF23 is better.

No, what I am saying is that if the F-22 cost the same as the F-23, the F-22 would be better.

Originally posted by E_T

Originally posted by MPJay
According to the official air force statement at time of selection it was announced that the F-22 offered slightly better performance at a better cost giving the true better value.

Yeah, and now because rising price tag amount of Raptors have been cutted down.
So Northrop just may have given realistic/real price tag instead of using cheaper tag just for getting deal. (and telling real price later)

Yea, the original number was 750, then it got cut down to 438, and now it's currently 339 F-22's.

Originally posted by Hockeyguy567





No, what I am saying is that if the F-22 cost the same as the F-23, the F-22 would be better.

no it didnt! the YF23 basic cost more than the F22 basic. no it wouldnt all the F22 has over the YF23 is the manouvarbility. it can turn better thats all, in every aspect planned the YF23 was better.
the YF23 was designed to intercept outside the F22's range. The F22 is designed as a wingmate for the YF #23 as far as i can see.

Price being equal

the YF-23 had greater speed, range, and stealth (especially in the IR department)

The YF-22 had greater agillity and upkeep costs.

Thus, if you take all monetary aspects out of it, the YF-23 BlackWidow II was the superior aircraft.

Originally posted by American Mad Man
Price being equal

the YF-23 had greater speed, range, and stealth (especially in the IR department)

The YF-22 had greater agillity and upkeep costs.

Thus, if you take all monetary aspects out of it, the YF-23 BlackWidow II was the superior aircraft.

thanks man!

When you look at the difference between the YF-22 and the F/A-22A it makes you wonder how a fully developed F/A-23A would have turned out. I'm sure that the manoueverabily/TVC element would have been addressed.

Originally posted by waynos
When you look at the difference between the YF-22 and the F/A-22A it makes you wonder how a fully developed F/A-23A would have turned out. I'm sure that the manoueverabily/TVC element would have been addressed.

Yes, there was obviously a lot they could have improved.

As far as the TVC for the YF-23, as I understand it, because of the design of the exhaust (to improve thermal stealth) they had to compromise with a more limited thrust vectoring system.

The to me is moot though, as the ATF was never intended to be a 'dog fighter' - it was always supposed to dominate at BVR. The dog fighting ability was supposed to be a secondary ability.

Beyond that, from what I have read the differences in the aircraft were very minimal. Thus, the Raptor was slightly more manueverable and slightly cheaper, while the BlackWidow II was slightly faster and slightly more stealthy. In the end, they went with the track record of Lockheed and a slightly cheaper aircraft.

Both were great, but dollars aside - and assuming both were allowed to mature - the YF-23 would have been slightly better, IMHO.

Well, I can't argue with any of that, for a change. I agree.

Originally posted by waynos
Did Northrop get a contract for the F-5? I thought they were all built for export. Unless maybe the USAF bought them for aggressor training? I think the last front line Northrop fighter in US service was the F-89 Scorpion

Ive been looking for some more info on the F-5 It seems more than 2,000 F-5 aircraft have been procured by the USAF for use by allied nations. I not sure the exact number the USAF got though if any.

Heres a list that outlines production numbers but only says what models the USAF did not purchase no exact numbers.

Heres a pic of a F-5 I came across not sure what model but thats a cool paint job.


www.wpafb.af.mil...

Maybe the USAF could buy 232 Typhoons for the RAF? No? Oh well, if you don't ask you don't get

I don't know if you realise this already but if not that cool pic shows a Norwegian Air Force F-5A done up for a NATO Tigermeet.

Originally posted by waynos
Maybe the USAF could buy 232 Typhoons for the RAF? No? Oh well, if you don't ask you don't get

I don't know if you realise this already but if not that cool pic shows a Norwegian Air Force F-5A done up for a NATO Tigermeet.

I didnt know that waynos thanks for the info. What was a tigermeet a NATO training exercise or a NATO airshow show or something?

Did America just give F-5s to our allies, if so that was pretty nice.

The more I read about the F-5 the more it seems it was just one more good design that fell to bureaucracy and inter-service rivalry. It seemed to be a low-cost, low-maintenance fighter. A good plane all around for the time.

[edit on 11-9-2004 by ShadowXIX]

The Tigermeet is an (I think) annual 'get together' for all NATO Squadrons that have A tiger motif in their badge. Aircraft receive special paint jobs for the occasion. It doesn't matter what type of aircraft you fly, if your squadron badge depicts a tiger you're in. If I can find some decents pics I'll post them up.

In fact have a look at this.

Tigermeet 2004