All Roads Lead to Babylon : Mystery Babylon Demystified

Wow, the OP spent a whole week studying this, and thinks he has some kind of special knowledge. ATS must really stand for Amateurs Tell Stories.

I've always been very interested in this kind of history. This is becoming a little outdated isn't it. This assumes history starting in about 4500bc up till now.

Isn't it true we're now finding out this is not that old? What about Göbekli Tepe? Many thousands of years older, and in the same back yard. Won't several new chapters need to be written starting around 11,000bc? Not that I have many problems with what is already known.

There is also much evidence shown in this link to show the amount of Pagan Influence on the "Christianity" adopted by the Holy Roman Empire

It didn't originate from Rome in the main...this influence came from Babylonish practices, some of which had indeed been practiced in Rome by their citizens also.

Thus began the mother/child cult religions. Semiramis, sometimes called Rhea, came to be known as the Great Mother of the gods, while her son, Ninus, or Bacchus, or Tammuz (Ezekiel 8:14) was known as The Lamented One. Tammuz is sometimes called Adonis or Dionysus. Other variations of the Babylonian gods of Rhea and Tammuz included Ceres (or Irene) and Plutus in Greece, Isis and Osiris in Egypt, Fortuna and Jupiter in pagan Rome, Isi and Iswara in India, Cybele and Deoius in Asia, Shing Moo in China, and the Goddess mother and son in Tibet.

The Book "The Two Babylons" by Alexander Hislop, explores the origins of the ancient Babylonian cults, and then examines some of the apparent influences of those cults which have been carried over into Christianity.

Just a couple of examples taken from that article.

Christmas:

The practice of celebrating Jesus's birth on December 25th began in the third century, and it did not become common practice until the fourth century. The reason that this date was chosen was very likely due to the practice of observing ancient pagan holidays. In ancient Babylon, the pagans celebrated a festival honoring the birth of the son of the Queen of Heaven. This festival was sometimes called Yule Day, which is a Chaldean term for "infant." In that time, the sun was worshipped as a goddess, and the Lord Moon is said to have been born on December 25th. This seems to be the origin of the celebration we now call Christmas. Apparently, Christians celebrate Christmas on the date that the pagans celebrated Yule Day, instead of on Christ's birthday.

Christmas Tree: In pagan Egypt, the palm tree was a symbol of victory. In pagan Rome, the fir tree symbolized the pagan Messiah Baal-Tamar, or Baal-Berith. The legend says that the mother of Adonis, the sun god, was supernaturally changed into a tree, and she then bore her divine son. The son was known as "the man," "the branch," or "yule." It was the custom of the pagans to place a Yule log into the fire on the evening of December 24th, which would supposedly change into a new tree by the next morning. December 25th became the birthday of the unconquered sun god, and Nimrod was worshipped as the Babylonian messiah, who had been killed by his enemies, then was deified as the sun god, and revived again as a god. The trick with the yule log sounds strikingly similar to our modern day Christmas tree and our welcomed surprises on Christmas morning

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reply to post by muzzleflash


Exactly All Roads lead to Babylon

alot of Parallels to the Sumerian Babylonian, Egyptian, Hebrew Christian Legend Myths Tales Stories Scripts Etc..

Adaption from Babylonian to Egypt from Egypt to Hebrew passed along the Speakers & Story Tellers


The Few of the Big Ones
Shem Nimrod Semiramis Carbon Copy of Osiris Horus Isis Resurrection missing Genital tale
as there are many Pagan Cultures have the Same thing ! the Resurrection Show

As it Reminds me of another Story
Even its was well documented right up to Legendary William Wallace ! Genitals Cut off castrated and dissected limbs to the four Corners of ! Britain! well.. a slight touch... William Wallace wasn't resurrected tho !! Ahh I think.. ?

Then there's that movie Brave heart Showing the Future French Consort Queen of Edward Longshanks Son Edward II Pregnant whispering in the ear of Edward I that The Child is (More Less ) is not His Son's child but ! Wallace's any mere truth to it I wouldn't be Surprised! Tho Isabella would be way too too young ! and the dates would not match up ! with age and Time ... Then what does the DNA of Edward III show ? is it Legit
as we all know that he went after Favorites! ahh same sex thing ..

well the Story to that is The Death And Resurrection Show! well like Jesus!& Osiris in the Same Patten....

Killing Joke - The death and resurrection show Lyrics
www.stlyrics.com...

And the day will come Before the lights go out Who will you turn to Who will you turn to Choose the crucifixion Or Osiris slain Recurring themes, time again.

Pretty much like Nimrod & Osiris well.. sort of in a way ...
The Seed Spreading lineage, a part of being lives on

William Wallace = Capture and execution
en.wikipedia.org...



ohh and that Deluge AKA Great Flood . from Gilgamesh to Noah same story line
as there is Actual Proof!! to that


as I went a Little of topic here but what the Meaning is the close Same Pattern !

ohh and !!!


The Ops Post section of !

V. The "Goddess" in Cultures Globally

The famous "Statue of Liberty" in NYC is "Columbia". "Columbia" is "Venus Columba" or "Venus the Dove". "Columbia" is the personification of the Dove. "America" is another name for "Columbia".

Statue of Liberty = Mother of Liberty

ready!!

Killing Joke - The death and resurrection show Lyrics
www.stlyrics.com...

O beloved mother of liberty
Come to me

Burn away all my impurities
Hold me in your arms
Burn burn,
burn brightly Burn burn,
burn white heat

Killing Joke - The Death and Resurrection Show


love this Song great for the Winter Solstice !!



Thank for posting Op im going to continue reading the rest of the First Page a lot of Info !

wolfenz,

there's really no such thing as a sumerian babylon.
the general timeline for mesopotamia is sumer, black sea flood, akkad, babylon.
sumer and babylon are separated in time by about 200 years.

you said
"Adaption from Babylonian to Egypt from Egypt to Hebrew passed along the Speakers & Story Tellers"

this is also incorrect. it wasn't adapted, it was carried by the descendants of noah, to egypt and ethiopia, following the black sea flood, so it was also about 190 years or so prior to babylon

people reading this thread, take note that muzzle didn't want to deal with the sumerian question at all, except where it touched on his theory. by doing this, he left out huge amounts of information that would modify his theory. books like zeitgeist, and other less than scholarly works that insist the whole world started at babylon, are working with 300 year old critical texts that didn't have access to sumerian texts and artifacts. and as this thread and ALL ROADS LEAD TO ROME, indicate, they are still resistant to accepting that the critical papers they have put so much stock in, are not exactly current with archaeology anymore.

Originally posted by undo
wolfenz,

there's really no such thing as a sumerian babylon.
the general timeline for mesopotamia is sumer, black sea flood, akkad, babylon.
sumer and babylon are separated in time by about 200 years.

ahh Same Culture in a way , same art work ! etc... ok ok Same type Culture

We in America live in a Structured based on Roman Laws From descendants of Britain that was control by Rome for 400 years just a Mixture of Culture influence there ya think! ?

you said
"Adaption from Babylonian to Egypt from Egypt to Hebrew passed along the Speakers & Story Tellers"

this is also incorrect. it wasn't adapted, it was carried by the descendants of noah, to egypt and ethiopia, following the black sea flood, so it was also about 190 years or so prior to babylon

edit on 3-1-2012 by undo because: (no reason given)

What !! ?? Noah to Egypt Im talking about mostly the Osiris Isis Hours and Shem Semiramis Nimrod
Pattern ... both tell the same tale!! who is first!! well its the Battle of the Hebrew God and Angels and Egyptian Gods all have a Virtue and Attribute ! Similaritys! God or Angel of Fertility Death War Love Evil Etc you get my Meaning... All Religion & Mythology in Cultures Around the Planet Earth Have it


did Hebrew Slaves Adapted Egyptian Culture influence ?
I would tend to believe they did in some degree
Show me where you got this Info ! AMEN !

reply to post by undo



are you trying to Troll and discredit Muzzle! ?

do you have The Original Hebrew Torah or Christan Bible ! not that King Jame Version Translation!

and what do you think about the Council of Nicaea! 1 & 2 that more less Put in and left out other literature !
of what is to be Said and Told in the Holy Hebrew Christian Bible ?

and for the Sumerian Text there are so many different Translation of Meanings
that are different from One Another from different translators Zecharia Sitchin is one famed but is considered to be not Accurate in his findings ! to some ... Nibiru Annunaki etc...

Who to say what is Actually Right ! and the rediscovery of the Writing Translation of Sumerian Text from the last century! well i do lack a little of knowledge of Sumerian written history

Sumerian language
en.wikipedia.org...

Akkadian gradually replaced Sumerian as a spoken language somewhere around the turn of the 3rd and the 2nd millennium BC (the exact dating being a matter of debate),[4] but Sumerian continued to be used as a sacred, ceremonial, literary and scientific language in Mesopotamia until the 1st century AD. Then, it was forgotten until the 19th century, when Assyriologists began deciphering the cuneiform inscriptions and excavated tablets left by these speakers. Sumerian is a language isolate.[1]

reply to post by Wolfenz


the big clue is embedded in the book of deutoronomy, as far as i can tell. the passages are talking about the events that occurred as a result of the tower of babel. the divine council, presided over by jehovah/yahweh,
determined to correct nimrod's error. at this point in the story, nimrod is emperor of the known world. he has slaves from mesopotamia to egypt, who all speak the same language (because they were all survivors of the flood from the same geographical locations) rebuilding the prior temples of the gods, and their accompanying infrastructures. he brings new slaves thru the gate, who have different languages and cultures (this part i'm guessing at) which causes language and cultural problems (not to mention racial problems).

aside for some very sci-fi like additional data, the storyline goes that nimrod was divested of his power and it was split between 70 watchers (archangel variety), and the world was split up into 70 territories presided over by the 70 archangel watchers. ISRAEL was set aside to be watched over by the archangel michael. this little tidbit of data, completely befuddled staunch believers who felt the text of the deutero-canonical books contained no errors and were written entirely by moses. but if that were so, how did moses write about isreal being presided over by michael the archangel when it wasn't even a country at the time of babel and wouldn't be for a very long time. seeing as how the text there is speaking as if it moses himself explaining the history of babel, retrospectively, the question has grown into different possible explanations, for example:

1) that moses wrote it and someone edited it later and put the israel reference in there

2) israel already existed but that part hasn't been revealed in the text of the deutoro-canonical books. it's always been assumed it was created on the spot, for jacob. that may be a huge assumption! it may have originally been a title of power not necessarily a land title, although it became that by proxy since power resolved into land ownership anyway.

3) that israel was the name of that particular geographical land before the flood, and jacob inherited the land title. if this is the case, moses could say that israel would be watched over by michael the archangel without any reservations, because the 70 archangels had been assigned TERRITORIES anyway. the idea being that we assume it meant the actual lineage of the people of israel when it may mean anyone who lives in the territory of israel. (this particular approach needs more research)

4) that somebody else wrote it, retrospectively, based on prior unknown texts or oral traditions and someone else edited it later.

Babylon lies.

The whore of Babylon is in the bible.

Whatever Babylon says, beware.

reply to post by Wolfenz


no, i'm trying to show that any meaningful explanation of babylon, requires retrospective data on akkad and sumer, by virtue of the implications. one of the criticisms of sitchin's work was that he frequently didn't differentiate between sumer, akkad and babylon. he just called all the artifacts and texts, sumerian. muzzle appears to be doing the opposite, he doesn't appear to want to acknowledge sumerian and akkadian info, unless it supports his babylonian theory. so sumerian and akkadian data, what little he acknowledges, is called babylonian.

reply to post by undo


I don't think so. You are clearly just trying to mix things up and confuse people. I explained clearly that I used it as a general phrase because that's the phrase the occult uses.

I totally linked all types of information about Akkad, Sumeria, etc. And then I gave people the resources to look into it for themselves. I expect if anyone wants to know anything they will do their own digging and make their own assessments.


Any opinions about those artifacts found in South America however? I'd love to hear what you think about that stuff.

Originally posted by muzzleflash
reply to post by undo

 

I don't think so. You are clearly just trying to mix things up and confuse people. I explained clearly that I used it as a general phrase because that's the phrase the occult uses.

I totally linked all types of information about Akkad, Sumeria, etc. And then I gave people the resources to look into it for themselves. I expect if anyone wants to know anything they will do their own digging and make their own assessments.


Any opinions about those artifacts found in South America however? I'd love to hear what you think about that stuff.

i'm not trying to confuse the issue. i was rather dismayed that you didn't want to acknowledge anu-enlil-enki, as they predate and are the foundation for anything that comes afterwards, including tammuz-nimrod-semiramis or any combination thereof.

alot of bible scholars are still reading scholarly works that also didn't have the advantage of sumerian-akkadian data, and when they do come across it, it makes them uncomfortable for the obvious reasons that it suggests we may not know as much as we thought we did, about what happened back then, and that some things are not as precisely rendered as we imagined. i thought that was the idea of bringing out new info? well some new info, deliberately avoids the big blinking lights that are sumer and akkad

i missed the south american artifacts! get back to ya. i got so hung up on your decision not to include anu-enki-enlil in your deliberations that i've been fussin' about it ever since lol

Originally posted by catwhoknowsplusone
Babylon lies.

The whore of Babylon is in the bible.

Whatever Babylon says, beware.

i am not a whore and the whore of babylon is a city.

thank you and have a nice day

Originally posted by undo
i was rather dismayed that you didn't want to acknowledge anu-enlil-enki

Well I did link people to the story about the theft of the Mes, and in the other thread I did make some other links surrounding all of that issue as well.

I purposely avoided the names you mentioned above because I didn't want this to derail into an argument about aliens, and that for sure would have happened had I started getting into all of that.

Plus it would be totally unnecessary because my main goal was merely to link everything back to a central source point, which I feel was accomplished.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by undo
i was rather dismayed that you didn't want to acknowledge anu-enlil-enki

Well I did link people to the story about the theft of the Mes, and in the other thread I did make some other links surrounding all of that issue as well.

I purposely avoided the names you mentioned above because I didn't want this to derail into an argument about aliens, and that for sure would have happened had I started getting into all of that.

Plus it would be totally unnecessary because my main goal was merely to link everything back to a central source point, which I feel was accomplished.

you did an awesome job collecting all that info, and i understand why you would be concerned that it would turn into the alien question, but even so, the earlier trinity is such an important piece of the puzzle, that leaving it out is akin to describing an accident scene but not talking about how it got that way. btw, could you link me the south american stuff? and the crespi american eagle, notice that's the tree of life motif to the left of him?

Also to whomever wants to dispute this by saying that Semiramis was a historical figure in the 800bc area I will suggest I am talking about a different figure by the same name that predates that by thousands of years.

If I told you Frederick I or II did such and such, would you know who I was talking about? Nope, because there were many many people that held this name (title), and I would actually have to give context clues so that you would know exactly which one I was referring to. Many people throughout history bore the same names.

The Semiramis of 800bc (Shammuramat) is as ancient to you or I today (2800 yrs) as the Semiramis (original) being discussed in this thread is to that Semiramis(800bc - Shammuramat).

Essentially we would have to place the date of this figure (the original Semiramis) prior to the Protodynastic Period of Egypt (3000-3200bc).

If anyone wants to debate the dates that's fine, it's on topic. But be prepared to have me dig up artifacts and we will debate how they are dated and we will also need to debate the iconography on them as well.

Plus when we talk about "Babylon", this isn't as clear cut as it may appear either. This name has been applied in multiple instances to refer to separate things.

'Babel' could refer to the ancient city (possiblyEridu).

The Egyptologist David Rohl, has conjectured that Eridu, to the south of Ur, was the original Babel and site of the Tower of Babel, rather than the later city of Babylon, for several reasons:

The ziggurat ruins of Eridu are far larger and older than any others, and seem to best match the Biblical description of the unfinished Tower of Babel.

One name of Eridu in cuneiform logograms was pronounced "NUN.KI" ("the Mighty Place") in Sumerian, but much later the same "NUN.KI" was understood to mean the city of Babylon.

The much later Greek version of the King-list by Berossus (c. 200 BC) reads "Babylon" in place of "Eridu" in the earlier versions, as the name of the oldest city where "the kingship was lowered from Heaven".

Rohl et al. further equate Biblical Nimrod, said to have built Erech (Uruk) and Babel, with the name Enmerkar (-KAR meaning "hunter") of the king-list and other legends, who is said to have built temples both in his capital of Uruk and in Eridu.

Other scholars have discussed at length a number of additional correspondences between the names of "Babylon" and "Eridu". Historical tablets state that Sargon of Akkad (ca. 2300 BC) dug up the original "Babylon" and rebuilt it near Akkad, though some scholars suspect this may in fact refer to the much later king Sargon II.

Do not confuse this with "Babylonia" the empire please, which is of a later period.

Also we have the Akkadian city state of Babylon.

Babylon, along with Assyria to the north, was one of the two Akkadian nations that evolved after the collapse of the Akkadian Empire, although it was rarely ruled by native Akkadians.

Akkadian Empire

Neo-Babylonia (Chaldean Empire)

Look at this Sumerian King List, it's totally absurd and doesn't help at all when trying to place dates for some of this stuff.
Chronology

And then we have the reference "Mystery Babylon" which refers to the 'mystery religion' which sprung from antiquity in the area where Sumeria, Akkad, Babylon, etc are located geographically.

There are countless raging debates about dating and naming of many of these things the further back in time we go. We do however have artifacts and tablets that we can look at and gain a little insight from.

I mean half of this stuff is generally considered allegorical or metaphorical.

The point of this thread is to discuss the systems of religions on Earth, their origins, and what correspondence there may be found within historical artifacts, writings, etc.

Originally posted by mrnotobc
I've always been very interested in this kind of history. This is becoming a little outdated isn't it. This assumes history starting in about 4500bc up till now.

Isn't it true we're now finding out this is not that old? What about Göbekli Tepe? Many thousands of years older, and in the same back yard. Won't several new chapters need to be written starting around 11,000bc? Not that I have many problems with what is already known.

We could probably consider Neolithic sites such as Göbekli Tepe, Tell Aswad, etc as 'antediluvian' and would most likely correspond to an earlier era altogether (8000 - 10000 bc or older).

If you have a good reason why this consideration should not be made, than please explain why.

Also let's be careful to separate the 'great deluge' (possibly 6500-7500 bc area) , from the so called 'Ryan-Pitman flood' (localized 5500bc), the 'Thera tsunami' (localized 1600bc), the Burckle tsunami (localized-3000bc), etc.

Excellent topic, OP. I would add however that in my non-professional, layman's, but researched (for about ten years now) to the best of my ability opinion, these myths actually go back even further than ancient Sumeria. Or at least the ultimate foundations for them do. While Sumeria is the oldest of what we can rightly call a civilization by our current standards, there are cultures which predated Sumeria to which common archetypes and mythic themes may be more rightly ascribed.

The Sumerian (and other) myths contain common themes that can be traced back to proto-Indo-Iranian, and before that, to the (central Asian) proto-indo-european cultures. Perhaps most strikingly among them, the concept of a "World Tree," a network of roots, trunk, and branches symbolizing the connectedness of the Heavens, Earth, and Underworld, may have contributed to the later Tree of Life concept. (This is not unlike the Sumerian myth of the tree in Inana's garden and the specific role played the the roots, trunk, and branches therein.) Like many other cultures, the proto-indo-europeans also imagined a sea, womb or abyss containing the entirety of the world tree, from whence all life, creation, and gods arose.

That this central and transcendental role of the world tree appears to have originated among the proto-indo-Europeans (although the concept may predate them, as their early symbolic writing is the oldest we have that I'm aware of thus far) and that they were also the first to develop a caste system not with the strongest warriors, but rather the priests as the primary leadership, has always fascinated me. Especially given the subsequent dominant role the religious caste received throughout much of human civilization from that point forward.

Just my to two cents. Great discussion. Peace.