How Much Blood is on Your Hands? See how you score!

reply to post by SurrealisticPillow


The fact it that ANY time the U.S military got involved in anything the situation with the local government was horrible. Some believed the propaganda that was the only thing allowed to be reported because it was all they heard so they would be against any invader, until their rights or family were violated which would have been inevitable.

Of course the U.S. only seems to get involved when in their best interest and for other countries in the same predicament if there is no benefit they get ignored. No one in the U.S military has any reason to hold their head low unless their only purpose was to join to kill someone. Some people will join in order to have some semblance of power only and not caring about others.

Our politicians are horrible and our leaders may be bad but because they are scrutinized so much no one would risk taking any action without having a lot of legitimate reasons for doing so.

Originally posted by jimnuggits
This 'fun' little test seems to be trivializing a very heavy burden that some men carry each and every day.

That applies to very few 'men' in reality. The majority of 'men' in NATO countries are possibly led to believe or even wish to believe that they are fighting for home and hearth and protecting their country. But that is a misconception on their part.

Originally posted by jimnuggits
I get that you are attempting to open people's eyes concerning their own personal complicity in the military industrial complex, but what you've actually done is bordering on disprespect for the sacrifice our soldiers make each and every time they step onto the battlefield.

Unless those soldiers have been drafted, they are professionals and made a choice to join a military unit. While I agree that many are brave, well trained and provide an effective force, they are still paid for providing a service. There are civilians that risk their lives for their community and get paid for doing so. A soldier is not special, not unusual, they are merely an employee, like the majority of us. They are not making a sacrifice, they are making a choice. I can think of no military operations which have genuinely served to protect the people of the US and the UK for example in recent years...and yet they have been involved in numerous conflicts...but my home and hearth were never under threat...no soldier has died for anything I believe in. There have been numerous deaths though of soldiers serving private corporate interests. In fact that would apply to every single conflict, major and minor since, and possibly including, the first world war. Given my own countries behaviour, that would actually go back to the 1700s perhaps...the US has more grace left that we do.

Originally posted by jimnuggits
Bad form, in my opinion.

Star for effort, but try a new game, like 'who owns your laundry detergent?,' the game that traces every dollar you spend!

If we want to shut down the war machine, we have to shut down our unquenchable thirst for petroleum, coal and lumber.

How can YOU use less?

Very easily. And it is not just a matter of using less, it is about ensuring that every penny that you spend encourages the dvelopment of ethical business practices and fair trade. In terms of energy, there are plenty of companies offering green alternatives, it costs more, but that is due to subsription rates. When I signed up, the guy told me I was only the second person to do so in the 5 years that the product has been on offer. We all have an incredible amount of power within our pockets and in our labour.

What a whiney thread topic.

I've got plenty of blood on my hands - quite a bit more directly than the garbage propaganda posted in the OP, and all the way up past my elbows. You know what? I can sit right down and eat a ham sandwich without bothering to try to wash it off.

There are folks in this world who just desperately NEED to be erased. Who you gonna call when they knock at your door? People like me, or people that will go along poking daisies into their gun barrels, getting their heads blown off in the process? Don't bother answering that - I already know.

You'll call people like me - scream for us, actually. Then when the dust settles and the smoke clears, and everything is all bright and beautiful in your world again, you'll put us back in the closet, hide us back under the bed, so you don't have to look at us or interact, and so you can feel all kinds of superior with your "enlightened" BS, and get back to your coffee-shop discussions about how we are the bane of your existence.

Spare me the platitudinous garbage. I already KNOW. Been there. done that, and didn't even get the t-shirt. SAY what you want - I've seen what these whiners DO when the wolf is at their own door. God forbid that they get off their asses and do something to save themselves.

That's what lowlifes like me are for.

Originally posted by nenothtu
You'll call people like me - scream for us, actually. Then when the dust settles and the smoke clears, and everything is all bright and beautiful in your world again, you'll put us back in the closet, hide us back under the bed, so you don't have to look at us or interact, and so you can feel all kinds of superior with your "enlightened" BS, and get back to your coffee-shop discussions about how we are the bane of your existence.

Spare me the platitudinous garbage. I already KNOW. Been there. done that, and didn't even get the t-shirt. SAY what you want - I've seen what these whiners DO when the wolf is at their own door. God forbid that they get off their asses and do something to save themselves.

That's what lowlifes like me are for.

I wouldnt scream for you, I can fight my own battles and I don't want any of the things that are gained by the act of war. The wolf is not at my door and never has been. The wolf may have been at your paymasters door, they are the ones that use you and cast you aside. There are things that I would gladly fight for, and give up my life for if that was required. Lining the pockets of profiteers is not one of them.

I don't think you are a lowlife. You have had the life that you chose and seem willing to stand by it. I have the greatest respect for that. All of us, essentially, only have ourselves to answer to, we our own ultimate judge, and when we close our eyes at night and are alone, it is that that we face. No one expects anymore of us, than we do the best with the choices that are presented to us. If you can look yourself in the eye, then you are fine, if you can't, then you can't. I am working on being able to, and you and I can agree to disagree. It all depends I suppose on what you expect of yourself and what you expect of others.

I would never, ever, pay someone to do something that I was not willing to do myself. I find that a good rule of thumb. For me. I am sure you have what you have to get you through the night.

Very best wishes to you.

Usually those that issue the orders have no field experience, have never dirtied their hands, and do not bear any of the risks. They pay others to take those risks for them. That is the very basis of modern warfare. The professional soldier, and army. Designed to serve, from it's very inception economic interests. The 'armies', or groups, that have fought to protect hearth and home, are generally not paid. I think we call them 'hostiles', 'enemy insurgents' and 'terrorists' these days. I think it makes it easier to shoot them that way.

Originally posted by Omphale

I wouldnt scream for you, I can fight my own battles and I don't want any of the things that are gained by the act of war. The wolf is not at my door and never has been. The wolf may have been at your paymasters door, they are the ones that use you and cast you aside. There are things that I would gladly fight for, and give up my life for if that was required. Lining the pockets of profiteers is not one of them.

I gave you a star for that post. The only really troubling part was the first paragraph, insinuating that everything boils down to dollars and cents. I suppose that as the world stands today, that may be so, but it hasn't always been, and never will be for some of us. There are things in life that are FAR more important than mere money. I've never killed solely for money, nor have I lined the pockets of any profiteers. Those two allegations seem to be the standard fallback position for a certain class of people who, in my old age, I've decided were never worth "saving" to begin with.

They can either rake their money in, or whine because they can't rake in enough to suit themselves. Makes no difference to me which camp they sit in - I want no part of either one, I'll settle for my peace of mind.

Best wishes to you as well.

income tax is collected against your will. it's comparable to an addict putting a gun to your head, robbing a portion of your wealth (most people don't walk around with their life savings in their pockets) and then buying crack with it.

you can't be blamed for supporting the mexican cartels.

the government collects taxes on the penalty of death. if don't agree with what your taxes are used for moral reasons and refuse to pay you'll be charged with income tax evasion.

if you refuse to pay taxes they will charge, convict and sentence you to prison.

if you refuse to go to report to prison they will send the police to arrest you and take you in.

if you resist this kidnapping, the will forcibly take you.

if you resist them from forcibly taking you, the only plausible way is with a weapon. they will open fire on you and kill you. legally.

your crime, refusing to pay income tax to fund a war machine.

Jesus is so wise, he said give to caesar what belongs to caesar. in this case give the federal reserve note to the federal reserve. now you know who the power is in america.

Jesus with that saying absolves you of any blood on your hand's perpetrated by the government with your work and money.
sleep well and sleep easy.

They'll be judged accordingly and they know who they are.

In the coming war, if it happens (I believe it will) - it will not matter who was right and who was wrong. All that will matter and all that people will ask is why didn't someone (one of the key players presumably) stop it from escalating to such devastating proportions.

We all have blood on our hands ... how much? Too much.

Originally posted by nenothtu
I gave you a star for that post. The only really troubling part was the first paragraph, insinuating that everything boils down to dollars and cents. I suppose that as the world stands today, that may be so, but it hasn't always been, and never will be for some of us. There are things in life that are FAR more important than mere money. I've never killed solely for money, nor have I lined the pockets of any profiteers. Those two allegations seem to be the standard fallback position for a certain class of people who, in my old age, I've decided were never worth "saving" to begin with.

I don't think that any soldier would say that they have killed for money, and I am not saying that you have, directly. I would have to know more about your service record before I could make any assessment, and still I don't think that that would have been in YOUR mind at the time. In the mind of others who may have been directing your actions? Perhaps. Again, I would need to know your operational history. Similarly, the same would be needed in order to assess how your actions affected the profits of those interests that you may or may not have been protecting. The devil is, as always, in the detail.

I can perfectly understand why people join the military. But any notion of an ideal that they are protecting their country is bull#, and should be called as such. You may not have killed to line people's pockets, you probably killed or be killed, or possibly they just got in the way, I don't know the circumstances or the reasoning in the moment, I can't, but either way, you were paid to do a job and you did it, and you did it for reasons known to you. But presumably you were following orders, and those orders were part of a larger operation at times, and those operations were for what overall purpose? Who were you 'saving'/'liberating'/'protecting'? In both terms of the smaller and the bigger picture? Do you know?

Originally posted by nenothtu
They can either rake their money in, or whine because they can't rake in enough to suit themselves. Makes no difference to me which camp they sit in - I want no part of either one, I'll settle for my peace of mind.

If NATO served the purpose that it was designed to serve, if it was wielded with equality and used to aid those that are oppressed and exploited, we, the UK and the US, would at this point in time, be getting deservedly spanked. And our former leaders, Blair and Bush, would be standing before a war crimes tribunal and not waiting for 'god to be their judge'. We elected them, WE are their judges.

I'm not judging anyone else, but I am taking responsibility for each and every one of my own actions, and expect everyone else to do likewise. Demand it even

To claim that people have blood on their hands because they pay taxes is stupid.We don't have a choice. If you don't pay, you got to jail and who wants to spend time in jail? I'm not responsible for the blood thirsty sociopathic leaders and the people who support them and there's also nothing I can do about them. It's simply the way of this evil, crazy world. All I can do is lead by example and that is exactly what I do. I have no blood on my conscience or on my hands whatsoever. I practice Buddhism and I don't even intentionally kill insects. I'm not perfect, but I'm so damn close it scares me.

reply to post by randomname


I don't know about the US but in the UK, I can choose by earning below a certain threshold, to not pay income tax. I still pay tax on the local government services that I use, for the emergency services, street lighting etc...Council Tax we call it. And I have, up until now, always made my National Insurance contributions, and probably will continue to do so on a voluntary basis as I do believe in supporting the NHS and value it's contribution to the country's well being. I only refuse to earn more in order to pay Income Tax.

reply to post by FreeDominator


First if I may, I was being sarcastic in regards to evolution.

Second, I was never military, you don't have to be trained as a soldier to learn to fight like one. This alone is part of whats missing from the OP. The grey area.....you don't have to salute to be a killer in war is all I'm saying.

I'm warped but harmless, its ok I look at me sideways too!

In a way war is evolution.......through chaos comes clarity.

reply to post by kindred


You are responsible if they are your elected officials, whether you exercised your vote or not. Read the articles of war...if a government is democratically, or representionally elected, then those civilians who elected that government are complicit and represent legitimate enemy targets. Why do you think that the G8 was so keen to spread 'Western style Democracy'? Well what goes around comes around. Eventually. 9/11 being an example of that.

I think this thread belongs in that same place that the appeasers, apologists and liberal loving far left end up. Never to see the light of day again. In my opinion this thread is tasteless; regardless of politics the military serves a role. It is up to the individual to assess how their morals may conflict with the actions they take. The fact your try to categorise blood guilt to a whole population is idealistic naivety of the worst type.

That type of rationale is usually confined to dictators, a German one comes to mind, an entire race, at fault and deserving destruction for the indiscretions of the few.

Originally posted by Omphale

If NATO served the purpose that it was designed to serve, if it was wielded with equality and used to aid those that are oppressed and exploited, we, the UK and the US, would at this point in time, be getting deservedly spanked. And our former leaders, Blair and Bush, would be standing before a war crimes tribunal and not waiting for 'god to be their judge'. We elected them, WE are their judges.

I don't believe it's possible for NATO to serve the purpose it was designed for any longer - there is no more Warsaw Pact for it to oppose. I personally think NATO has outlived it's usefulness and ought to be dissolved.

That's probably why folks don't let me make decisions like that.

I'm all for taking responsibility for what an individual can reasonably be expected to control, which for most of us is his own actions and not much more, and demanding that others do the same. When it comes to "war crimes" trials, I've yet to see anyone put forward a convincing legal argument for trials, which is why I suppose no trials have been pursued. So far, I've yet to hear any one so much as cite a law that has been broken, and unless a law is broken, there can be no determination as to "criminality".

If a good argument could be made, I'm all for throwing Bush under the bus, as CiC. He's no better than any other world leader, and has no more immunity than Hirohito or Hitler would have had. Unfortunately, there are no criminal penalties for stupidity, which is what I believe the Iraq war to have been. I'm aware of no actual laws that have been broken. The same goes for Obama and his Libyan involvement, and just about any other fracas he can get into at this point, such as Syria.

It seems to me that we've got trouble enough at home, which is likely to get worse over the next year or so, and we ought to be concentrating on that, rather than poking around in other folks' internal business.

Originally posted by Omphale
reply to post by kindred

 

You are responsible if they are your elected officials, whether you exercised your vote or not. Read the articles of war...if a government is democratically, or representionally elected, then those civilians who elected that government are complicit and represent legitimate enemy targets. Why do you think that the G8 was so keen to spread 'Western style Democracy'? Well what goes around comes around. Eventually. 9/11 being an example of that.

Which "Articles of War" are you reading? I'm not aware of ANY that justify making war on civilians on that basis, and the Geneva Conventions specifically prohibit it. The only "civilians" which are legitimate targets aren't civilians at all - they make themselves combatants by taking up arms against one belligerent party or another involved in a conflict.

Who they vote for is immaterial in whether or not they are eligible to be be targets. Whether they shoot at someone is what decides.

Im a 4 .. possibly a 5 .. depends on my mood.

I would not slap a anti war protestor unless he physically touched me. I will do whatever the government says military wise unless it violates constitutional rights of American civilians ... besides Marshal Law.

It would be foolish for the Government to prosecute military men who claim constitutional rights are being violated and deny orders. Unless you voluntarily gave up those rights in a special forces group or special assignment.

A military man's duty comes first and foremost ONLY to the constitution. Then comes to the Orders/CoC - and then the men in his unit. In that order.

Also Marshal Law is temporary. The government can have TEMPORARY Marshal Law. The government can in no way force American Civilians into a federal camp unless they are exposed to hazardous material or proof of each individuals breaking common felony law.

You forgot about the peole making the decisions, surely they have higher score.

btw but just an observation for those who do kill for god and country... did god say it was ok to kill because some corrupt poloticial tells you so? your taking a very big risk with your soul trying to justify it. god doesnt want wars and he doesnt need you to kill in his name. you do it because your either a high school drop out wityh nothing else to do, a weak willed person who enjoys the power it give them or a phsycopath who simply whoops and cheers when someone is blown appart while they sit safely in ther aircraft/boat/tank. better them than us theough right?

wow...watch out man.....looks like you are anti American....I mean, come on.....our boys might feel bad about this.....they are super duper heroes......we defend freedom and liberty and stuff......

everyone is juts jealous of our freedom......if they die it's because they fail to commit ritualistic suicide before the might of our super duper forces....heathens......

Originally posted by nenothtu
What a whiney thread topic.

I've got plenty of blood on my hands - quite a bit more directly than the garbage propaganda posted in the OP, and all the way up past my elbows. You know what? I can sit right down and eat a ham sandwich without bothering to try to wash it off.

There are folks in this world who just desperately NEED to be erased. Who you gonna call when they knock at your door? People like me, or people that will go along poking daisies into their gun barrels, getting their heads blown off in the process? Don't bother answering that - I already know.

You'll call people like me - scream for us, actually. Then when the dust settles and the smoke clears, and everything is all bright and beautiful in your world again, you'll put us back in the closet, hide us back under the bed, so you don't have to look at us or interact, and so you can feel all kinds of superior with your "enlightened" BS, and get back to your coffee-shop discussions about how we are the bane of your existence.

Spare me the platitudinous garbage. I already KNOW. Been there. done that, and didn't even get the t-shirt. SAY what you want - I've seen what these whiners DO when the wolf is at their own door. God forbid that they get off their asses and do something to save themselves.

That's what lowlifes like me are for.

edit on 2012/1/1 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)

I'm with You Bro, I'm a Vet, and I agree about the snivvely tone this OP suggests. They curiously seem content in living under the freedoms that US Bloody people provide them. I'll Share a Ham and cheese with you any day Bud.