How Much Blood is on Your Hands? See how you score!

I think your whole viewpoint is skewed, and you sir, are damn well nuts. You act like because we dont oppose our friends and family joining the military that we have some kind of blood on our hands? You know what? Until YOU lay your life down for this country or your fellow countrymen, you have no idea what it's like to be one of us. SO hut up. Your entire post was nothing short of an inflammatory burst from a lacking mind.

reply to post by SurrealisticPillow


Sorry man your post playing the blame game does not impress me. It's like saying if you buy a bag of weed. You'r supporting al qaeda. or better yet if you goto the store to buy food and have to pay sales tax your supporting whoever or how about something little out of the country. If you buy gas to goto work or even to the store or to the dr. your supporting a fund for whoever. You can link anything with anything today. Look around your house to see how much stuff you own is made in chinna. Does that mean you support communism? If your kid is sick and needs to goto the Dr. You jump in your car drive to the dr office. You wait your turn. Go in the office find get some meds where you have to goto the drug store buy them. Wile your out you decide to pick up some milk and maybe something for supper. Maybe a simple hamburger pack then drive home. Think about all the things you can link into supporting in that simple task? Does this all mean you support wars for gas to invade iraq? and everything your Dr. believes in supporting? and the killings from NATO? and the killing and cruelty of animals?

reply to post by ManjushriPrajna

The distinction between 0 and 1 is one of necessity. 1 is the lowest level of complicity, and it has to be that way, it cannot work any other way.
Consider that if you absolutely refused to support the war machine materially or financially in any way, the war machine would cease to exist. Each of us in some small way IS the machine, perhaps as minor as a nut or a bolt metaphorically speaking. (Although a "nut" seems pretty appropriate). So, if you go out of your way NOT to support it, at your own peril, you are clearly separate from those that don't. That is the reason for the distinction.
If I did not have it that way, many would have pointed out that we ALL have blood on our hands because we pay taxes. Of course, others have asserted that we ALL have blood on our hands because we breathe, or eat packaged foods, or some other product. I disagree with this, but to each his/her own in this debate.

reply to post by traderjack

You may want to reread the OP. I am "bashing" NATO countries specifically as an example, but the charges encompass all crimes involving human casualties.
Pedophilia is outside of the scope of this thread.

reply to post by seabag

Congratulations on your medals. If you are going to do a job, do it right.
Of course, it is inconvenient and likely counterproductive for you to research the true causes of war. It is not something your superiors would like at all, so I advise against it if you want to display your medals proudly.
As for your score, you appear to be at least a 4. If you elaborate a bit more on what exactly you have done, and how you felt about it, perhaps you could earn a 5.

reply to post by Phenomium

I have addressed part of your post above, (reply to Manjus,,,,) on the distinction between a 0 and a 1.
In other responses I have addressed the fact that you can have blood on your hands for "justifiable" reasons. This doesn't mean that the LAW will always allow you to be justified when common sense would seem to indicate otherwise, conversely, the LAW may justify murder.
It is YOUR conscience that allows some blood to be on your hands without guilt.
Thanks for the comment. I agree very much with your sentiments.

reply to post by Rabbit806

Shut up?
In a rational, unemotional way,
(when you get emotional, it means your rational mind is overwhelmed, incapable of sorting out cause),
you could offer that giving moral support to a soldier that is going overseas to commit crimes is not worthy of this relatively high number. You might have a point, except that I believe it is war crimes, and perhaps you don't?
Either way, if I cannot retain my freedom of speech, I might end up with blood on my hands.

reply to post by St0mP121

It pretty much is as you say as far as supporting the machine.
Support IS support. Do you agree with how they use your money? Perhaps not, but you DO give them money. I do too.
I am not without complicity. It is extremely difficult to extract oneself from the machine, thus the reward of 0 for those that, by choice or chance have NO complicity.
Edit: As for buying weed, you are likely supporting the drug cartels and the CIA unless you are particular as to the origin.

Originally posted by nenothtu
I'm all for taking responsibility for what an individual can reasonably be expected to control, which for most of us is his own actions and not much more, and demanding that others do the same. When it comes to "war crimes" trials, I've yet to see anyone put forward a convincing legal argument for trials, which is why I suppose no trials have been pursued. So far, I've yet to hear any one so much as cite a law that has been broken, and unless a law is broken, there can be no determination as to "criminality".

There is a law against torture. There is a law against holding someone indefinately without trial. There is a law regarding the treatment of detainees. All of these laws have been broken by the US, possibly with complicity from the UK, the former head of MI5 has publicly condemned the use of torture, repeatedly, but MI6 I believe haven't commented.

By acting without NATO and UN approval, the UK and the US contravened international law.

Originally posted by nenothtu
If a good argument could be made, I'm all for throwing Bush under the bus, as CiC. He's no better than any other world leader, and has no more immunity than Hirohito or Hitler would have had. Unfortunately, there are no criminal penalties for stupidity, which is what I believe the Iraq war to have been. I'm aware of no actual laws that have been broken. The same goes for Obama and his Libyan involvement, and just about any other fracas he can get into at this point, such as Syria.

See above. And similiarly, I don't think we have had any public commentary from the UK or US intelligence services as to their involvement in Libya, other that the report by the BBC that the UK military and intelligence forces were running insurgency training camps up to six months prior to any 'surge'.

Originally posted by nenothtu
It seems to me that we've got trouble enough at home, which is likely to get worse over the next year or so, and we ought to be concentrating on that, rather than poking around in other folks' internal business.

Yes. I agree. But I also have a child, and I don't want to leave this world knowing I did nothing to change it and instead stood back and watched while it slid further into the crapper, when I know I could've done something to stop it. If only I'd had the balls. But, luckily I do so I know that I will have no such worry as I face the final curtain...even if the rest of you fail to grow any...

..or I'll die trying.

As I said, it is about what helps you sleep at night. I make no excuses that I am driven very much by that, and I sincerely do not judge anyone on the choices that they have made. My only concern is that you feel the peace that you deserve, if you deserve it. If you understand what I mean...only you know what you know, as do any of us and I am not here to pry, but put it this way, would you want someone to have to learn the lessons you have, in the way that you have? While it is good to look after your own, sometimes it is also good to be honest about your experiences so that others can learn from them indirectly and not simply look at you and want to be like you without understanding what it took to be you. We should be careful about sending mixed messages in the hope of it justifying our mistakes by repetition. If we have the information for cessation we should throw it out there and let it do it's work naturally.

It is only wrong if we know it is wrong. Most 16 to 18 year olds, I am sure you agree, can barely differentiate between their arses and their elbows. Do you see what I mean? Whatever mistakes, fatal, moral or otherwise, we have made that may or may not lead to our eternal damnation...does not exclude us from ensuring that the next generation do not make the same mistakes. We still have valid lessons to teach, far more valid than those that have never erred and therefore never lived.

Originally posted by nenothtu
Which "Articles of War" are you reading? I'm not aware of ANY that justify making war on civilians on that basis, and the Geneva Conventions specifically prohibit it. The only "civilians" which are legitimate targets aren't civilians at all - they make themselves combatants by taking up arms against one belligerent party or another involved in a conflict.

Sorry, 'Articles of War' was me being a bit archaic...but the fact remains, that in order to engage a country in war, that country has to have elected their leadership...this is NATO guidelines I believe. In case where there is a dictatorship, 'the people' are considered as captive or hostages of that regime, and therefore only the leadership represents a legitimate target. It is in these instances, usually, that coverts and paid mercenaries are used, as I am sure you know. But this also requires that the leadership that replaces said dictator, needs to be sympathetic to the needs of whoever funded the operation...or coup de tat as they are also sometimes called despite the obvious outside influence. Insurgency, and 'revolution; is the current preferred mode over such operations at present since society seems happy to accept large groups of people being disappeared thereby creating the necessary vacumn required to impose sympathetic rule. I gather than this method is cheaper or more effective than mercenaries, hence the change of MO. Or perhaps they really do think that we are all that easily fooled.

Originally posted by nenothtu
Who they vote for is immaterial in whether or not they are eligible to be be targets. Whether they shoot at someone is what decides.

Again, I agree. But, that being the case, I am also all for dropping the #ing pretense. Know what I mean?

reply to post by SurrealisticPillow


most times, the designers of war, did not choose it, for example: the maker of guillotine wanted to use it for amputations. how is creating things that are eventually used in war gives you a share in the guilt of the war machine? there's no point of it at all

reply to post by Narcissous

I don't see how one could be held accountable for the misuse of an item they invented. Culpability is determined by what you know, not by what you don't know. How you knowingly contribute, not how you may unknowingly be contributing.
Ignorance is an acceptable defense in the issue of complicity.

reply to post by usmc0311


i have to give you points for that last statement.. The world does have too much blood spread across the land. Dont take this test to heart. The same peeps quik to condemn you are the very same ones that would cry for your help if their country was invaded.. You dont write the policies, and bleed the same as everyone else.. I dont support war, but in having said that if someone tried to harm my family & home, i would defend such things. I would go down fighting thats for sure. So i cant judge someone for extending those boundaries & wanting to protect their home country. All i can do is ask that person to consider expanding those boundaries to their home planet and take a stand if they encounter any custards in the course of their duty, as they also serve a duty to themselves.

reply to post by usmc0311


i have to give you points for that last statement.. The world does have too much blood spread across the land. Dont take this test to heart. The same peeps quik to condemn you are the very same ones that would cry for your help if their country was invaded.. You dont write the policies, and bleed the same as everyone else.. I dont support war, but in having said that if someone tried to harm my family & home, i would defend such things. I would go down fighting thats for sure. So i cant judge someone for extending those boundaries & wanting to protect their home country. All i can do is ask that person to consider expanding those boundaries to their home planet and take a stand if they encounter any custards in the course of their duty, as they also serve a duty to themselves.

reply to post by SurrealisticPillow


I do appreciate your passion on this broad subject, and I understand your desire to see who "wears the coat, and how well." Judging by the personal sovereignty at the core of your comments, and by the strata you've delineated between levels of direct involvement with inhumane acts, you may be well up to your knee in Level 5 thought my friend. Good for you.

Most humans, for many, many lives, will progress to (and remain lifelong within) Level 4 thought -- system level participation, structure, order, membership. As one system begins to pale in its match to our wonderings and identification/motivation, we switch to another. From one church service to another. Then from one church to another. Then from one religion to another. Then from religion under someone else's documented dogma to none -- or on to our own spirituality. Sometimes, we change jobs and leave co-worker loyalties and identification behind. Sometimes we change companies, sometimes we change industries and careers.

Whenever the tarnish becomes apparent, when the song springs sour notes, when the smoothness sports barbs, it usually only affects and frustrates us and not everyone else. We'd prefer that we had buy-in, that our exception is valid and warranted and adopted. Usually, it is not. Instead, we are calling the baby ugly in most apathetic eyes. They have either yet to sense the flaw, perhaps they are ignorant to it and don't want to think about it. Maybe they have found a way to incorporate it into their process and are now benefiting from it. Or maybe, just maybe, they are part of what caused it. Few of these perspectives will promote your viewpoint, especially when it becomes vocal, physical, or impactful towards change.

So they really want you to shut up or leave. But you still long for someone to agree with you, because humans are predominantly social animals and our systems have been crafted to ingrain compliance and membership longing. It is lonely in Level 5 though, the I Am that I Am. You get to take exception to anything, for any reason, and try out your own values and manifestations. But few (if any) can applaud you for achievements, insights, evolution and "progress" as you learn who you are and why things are as they have been. In the darkness of the void, there are no walls, floor or ceiling -- no pathway to measure or judge progress. There is only you.

Many return repeatedly to shallowing levels of immersion into existing Level 4 systems, to regain support, membership, and stability. All will pale in satisfaction at increasingly shorter intervals, but you may be driven to simply create your own Level 4 systems for others to play within. Your own company, a new industry, a new religion, etc.

I think you're really on to something, but remember that it's all about you. It always has been. You will have varying levels of promotion and detraction by waving your analyses and conclusions about like a flag. Sometimes they will antagonize you to new action and progress, sometimes they will support and applaud you and you can rest with friends for a moment on your long journey. More answers lie within the hearts of those you despise and do not understand, than within those with whom you identify.

Wonder if the OP would care to do a similar poll for the folks in the middle east who support jihad, al qaeda, the taliban, UBL or suicide bombers? If not, this is just another ATS loves to hate on America thread.

reply to post by peacemind

Thank you for the poetic response.
This thread was meant to be provocative, but intellectually not physically. Some would have preferred a physical response as opposed to an intellectual one.
Yes, perhaps it is a form of therapy for me, a "cleansing" of sorts, but I have never been one to fall in line. I question the nature of the line, the need for the line, whom is constructing the line and why.
It has been fun. I hope at least one seed has been planted that will grow beautiful fruit someday.

reply to post by Sibilance

No one is exempt from complicity based upon language or geographic location. You may substitute NATO with any other terrorist organization, for example.
And again, you may have "justifiable" blood on your hands. YOU are your own judge, at least on this physical plane.

your choices are limited to only your simple imagination, they don't in any way reflect how much blood a person has on their hands. better luck on your next thread.

reply to post by SurrealisticPillow


Yes but...

These conflicts are produced and presented by the CIA, so if you're from the USA, you can take an extra bucket or two.

There's plenty of blame to go around, passivity, indifference, exsistential mediocrity, it's everywhere. Society is the base from which the individual grows, and clearly the base is beginning to rot, and no amount of fertilizer's going to fix it this time. People don't fight to defend their values, everybody makes their own excuses, but the society no longer promotes the defense of values, it promotes only competition, if you win they may let you live for a while, if you lose they take something away. The shameful way we've allowed our government to be bought by economic interests, the way we sit back and watch them fight long term wars of occupation, and take away our rights to the point where the military has the right to detain US citizens without due process for as long as they want. If we're going to sit back and let this happen, we deserve the fate that awaits us.

Fortunately though I carry a US passport, I'm expat resident in Spain. Times are tough, no doubt, but it's still a much better place to live for the time being, especially because times are tough and are going to get much tougher this year. Good luck to all of you!