History of Palestine

Originally posted by dontreally
Jews flourished in the Arab world???

*sigh* sweeping statements such as this only serve to distort the actual history of the historical relationship between Jews and Arabs.

I've gone into this I think at least 20 times here at ATS; The greatest of all Jewish philosophers, Maimonides, can serve as a typical case of what it was like for Jews in the Arab world. Maimonides fled Arab Spain after refusing conversion. He also fled his hometown of Fez, in Morocco, for telling Moroccan Jews being forced into conversion to lie and pretend to be Muslims while still practicing Judaism. When his letters were discovered the authorities wanted him dead; so he fled to Egypt, where became renown as the physician to Saladin. Only in Egypt - under a moderate Kurdish ruler (and a non-Arab) were Jews free from the perennial abuse experienced throughout the Arab world.

This is peace between Arabs and Jews? This one case alone, which is often treated as proof of Arab tolerance towards Jews, should reveal how completely untrue that assumption is. Maimonides FLED two different Arab kingdoms; the Poet and Rabbi, Judah ha Levi, a contemporary of Maimonides, was killed on his way to the Holy Land by Arab bandits.

Read "In Ishmaels House", or "Dhimmitude", or "Legacy of Jihad", for the history of the Jews in Arab lands.

Even in Eretz Yisrael, Arab massacres against Jews weren't unheard of.

In 1834, Arabs raided the Jewish community of Safed and killed as many as 500 Jews, and then plundered their property.

The badges introduced in Christian France and Germany to be worn by Jews to differentiate them from Christians was actually adopted from the Arabs of Morocco, who forced their Jews to wear such badges, and in other areas, Jews were forced to wear socks of different colors, often yellow and white, on each foot, to give them a Jester like appearance.

en.wikipedia.org...

Totally agreed!

Also you forgot to mention that part of the land was contractually written into the Torah. Yes so if it is going to a pissing match Palestine is going to lose.

reply to post by ghash


Hey if youre going to go into the history of Palestine don't half ass it. Don't forget to mention how Palestine used to be Israel before Caesar Hadrian renamed it in 135 A.D. after the second failed jewish revolt. If youre going to tell about the history you better go at it 100% because if you don't I will and youre not going to like what i have to say.

Originally posted by tvtexan
reply to post by ghash

 

All I was trying to point out is that your thread title is "History of Palestine". The video and timeline only deals with events from around 1882 - present. Certainly there is more history than that.

I thought that you were creating a thread that was going to discuss the history of Palestine and what right they have to claim the land as opposed to the Jews.

Unfortunately all I'm hearing you say is "Look how bad Israel is! Look at all the bad things they are doing!". Is that your argument? Because they do bad things they shouldn't be there?

I was just hoping for more than that.


Peace.

It is the only dance ATS members know. If you so much as ask a question or disagree, suddenly you are a shill, troll, UN supporting Anti Muslim. We get it, Jews are evil, Muslims are peace loving pacifists. Iran is the best country in the world only wanting peace and prosperity for all. Haven't you learned to assimilate into the ATS Borg yet?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


I never denied that Jews used to live there 2000 years ago, if you actually paid attention.
But for the last couple of centuries, Arabs have lived there. And these people owned 97% of the land, and was stolen from under their feet.

I never said Jews were bad, Muslims were better. I've always said that everyone is in the wrong, but regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Israel has been the primary aggressor, and has invaded and stolen Palestinian land. That is a proven fact. Just because people of the same religion once used to live there, does not give any kind of right for European Jews to steal a country.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


The title of this thread is simply a reference to the video.
And now tell me, before the Zionists stole the land from Palestinians and kicked them out, when was the last time the Jews were the majority in that region?

Originally posted by ghash
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

I never denied that Jews used to live there 2000 years ago, if you actually paid attention.
But for the last couple of centuries, Arabs have lived there. And these people owned 97% of the land, and was stolen from under their feet.

I never said Jews were bad, Muslims were better. I've always said that everyone is in the wrong, but regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Israel has been the primary aggressor, and has invaded and stolen Palestinian land. That is a proven fact. Just because people of the same religion once used to live there, does not give any kind of right for European Jews to steal a country.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

The title of this thread is simply a reference to the video.
And now tell me, before the Zionists stole the land from Palestinians and kicked them out, when was the last time the Jews were the majority in that region?

Lol, when was the last time any religion was the majority in that region besides Islam you mean? How did this go from being about Palestine to being about jews and muslims?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


You got angry about me not listing the entire history of Palestine, and how it was once named Israel.
By common sense, anyone can easily make out that what you were getting at. Modern Israel is not the same as Ancient Israel. Ancient Israel was mainly Jews was it not?

And for the last hundreds of years, maybe 1500 years if historical records are accurate, Arabs have been the majority. So how does the Arab of Palestine (Palestinians) not have a claim to that land?

Originally posted by ghash
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

You got angry about me not listing the entire history of Palestine, and how it was once named Israel.
By common sense, anyone can easily make out that what you were getting at. Modern Israel is not the same as Ancient Israel. Ancient Israel was mainly Jews was it not?

And for the last hundreds of years, maybe 1500 years if historical records are accurate, Arabs have been the majority. So how does the Arab of Palestine (Palestinians) not have a claim to that land?

Archeaological evidence indicates that the hebrew peoples have a legitimate claim to that land. It's like this. How would you have like to have been an Israelite and then have had Caesar Hadrian slaughter your people, plow up your temple mount and then rename your nation Palestine to ad insult to your injuries. Then they carted off 100k into slavery and the rest were butchered that failed to escape.

I am playing devils advocate here. Put yourself in their shoes. Your people have nearly been wiped out of existence (estimated 1.5 million jews died in second revolt) and some blow hard with a chip on his shoulder decides to take what had belonged to your people for nearly 2000 years and rename it and turn it over to the neighbors next door who decided to kiss his ass instead of help fight them. Since that time period they have been enslaved, hunted down, rejected, dejected, exiled, persecuted, and murdered while your people for centuries have always known the bones of your ancestors were buried in that ground in Israel. Always on the run, never having a home to call your own. I can empathize with them, the sorrow they must have felt and many of them no doubt felt like their God abandoned them.

Granted these zionists may not be the legitimate children of Israel, so who is? I have entertained thoughts sometimes that the true Israelites might be numbered amoung the Palestinians but how do you know? Who has the proof? Can you even have proof of such a thing? There will never be peace in Israel because that land is and always has been and always will be tied to their religious beliefs. People are willing to fight and die for what they believe is right, it happens everyday worldwide.

What is called Jordan today is actually a part of ancient Israel that was renamed Palestine by Caesar Hadrian, why do the palestinians need all the land? They could just be happy with the other half of Israel and make Jordan their nation since 3/4 of Jordaniqans are palestinians anyways. In the interests of peace and brotherhood would it not be better to just allow Israel to have the west bank and Gaza while Palestine can be Jordan? Both peoples can have something that has sentimental value to both peoples and when it comes to the temple mount, the Dome of the Rock canshare the mount with the temple. it doesn;t matter where the holy of holies resides for God's sake the holy of holies roamed around the desert for 40 years surely it doenst have to sit on the exact same spot Solomon put it on?

reply to post by ghash

And for the last hundreds of years, maybe 1500 years if historical records are accurate, Arabs have been the majority. So how does the Arab of Palestine (Palestinians) not have a claim to that land?

Your quote is exactly the problem, in relation to your OP.
That was kinda my whole point at the start of this thread.

You don't really know, and niether do the current occupants of that land.

When is the cut-off date? Is there some mystical date that we should all be aware of?
If you get kicked outta your house... you only have 1599 years to reclaim it, otherwise it's finder's keepers!

Who makes those rules? Do you know?
Who enforces them?
Is it the Palestinians? Is it The Jews? Is it the surrounding countries? Is it the UN?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Honestly, with all due respect (and I mean that), but the plight of Jews throughout Europe does not add or take away from this discussion, it is simply irrelevant. Okay fine, Jews were kicked out 2000 years ago from the land of Ancient Israel. But by the Roman Empire, hence the Palestinians have nothing to do with it, now do they?
So that's number one.

As for number two, ever since Palestine joined the Islamic Empire around 636 CE, Arab Palestinians have lived there. And it has been around 1400 years.
Until now it is all fact, can you not agree?

And THEN my dear friend, is where the real shi*t happened, Arab Palestinians had their lands taken away, had to deal with British soldiers in their homeland, Jewish terrorist organisations (Irgun, etc), immense numbers of Jewish immigrants from Europe, and were massacred, and literally pushed into the sea.



Now tell me exactly, how is that justified just because TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO Jewish people lived there?!

reply to post by tvtexan


Wow. Simply wow.
Palestine joined the Islamic Empire in 636 CE after the Battle of Yarmouk, and the Arabs never complained about ever being kicked out of there until the 1900s. Which translates into -> 1400 years of Arab majority in Palestine.
And no, the Jews who were once kicked out of that region cannot simply displace the poor Palestinians, and live there instead because they once lived there.

What's next, if the Jews finally leave, they'll displace half of Europe simply because they once lived there as well?
Would Turkey lay claim to Asia as in the Ottoman Empire?

No rational person ever denied the existence of Ancient Israel, but the Modern State of Israel, is a complete disgrace to mankind, and a huge blot on the history books, along with Nazi Germany.
Jews all over the world, can go to Israel right now, and gain immediate citizenship. While the millions of displaced Palestinians, which the UN clearly states that they have the right to return, cannot even visit their homes. And even if they do, they've all been demolished.

Maybe one of them would find the skeleton of Rachel Corrie right in front of his house as well.
Absolute bullcrap, the world will once look back at this, and realise that Israel should have been stopped earlier; the same reaction the world once had to Nazi Germany after seeing their concentration camps and extermination sites. Same bull#, different day.

Originally posted by ghash
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Honestly, with all due respect (and I mean that), but the plight of Jews throughout Europe does not add or take away from this discussion, it is simply irrelevant. Okay fine, Jews were kicked out 2000 years ago from the land of Ancient Israel. But by the Roman Empire, hence the Palestinians have nothing to do with it, now do they?
So that's number one.

As for number two, ever since Palestine joined the Islamic Empire around 636 CE, Arab Palestinians have lived there. And it has been around 1400 years.
Until now it is all fact, can you not agree?

And THEN my dear friend, is where the real shi*t happened, Arab Palestinians had their lands taken away, had to deal with British soldiers in their homeland, Jewish terrorist organisations (Irgun, etc), immense numbers of Jewish immigrants from Europe, and were massacred, and literally pushed into the sea.



Now tell me exactly, how is that justified just because TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO Jewish people lived there?!

What part of rivaling brothers don't you get? If your twin brother picked a fight against you and was full of pride and arrogance, there would be no peace. So the fight continues till this day, some people are that simple they carry these things onward. Wouldn't you? Israel cant be divided, period.

and for the record 2000+ years..

Palestine so called claim to the land came after Israel was already formed. No matter how it was formed Jews lived there and it was there land, and they where forced out many times.. typical jealous brother wanting something the other has..

reply to post by HeavenWolf


Jealous brother?
Yeah so if I take over your country and ethnically cleanse it, commit massacres and threaten the rest of the population of the same thing, then displace the rest of the people living there, and increase the number of my people. That would make you a jealous brother?

And if Jews always used to live there, how come hundreds of thousands of European Jews immigrated to Israel, and couldn't even reach above 11% of the population? Continue your Zionist propaganda somewhere else, facts are only discussed here.

Originally posted by ghash
reply to post by HeavenWolf

 

Jealous brother?
Yeah so if I take over your country and ethnically cleanse it, commit massacres and threaten the rest of the population of the same thing, then displace the rest of the people living there, and increase the number of my people. That would make you a jealous brother?

And if Jews always used to live there, how come hundreds of thousands of European Jews immigrated to Israel, and couldn't even reach above 11% of the population? Continue your Zionist propaganda somewhere else, facts are only discussed here.

edit on 25/12/11 by ghash because: (no reason given)

I see a lot of people here giving you facts, but your not accepting them. Did I ever say massacres are ok? And btw I am not a zionist. I believe that the right for Israel to exist, and I believe the land is theirs. Period.

Come on Man!

Is there any way to have an intellectual conversation with you?

I am an American, raised by immigrants, and trashed by all of the other immigrants that got here before my family did.
I live in a land that didn't belong to my ancestors, and yet I make my living based on the qualities of my knowledge and work ethic.

I hate the policies of the Israeli government; I hate the atrocities that they have committed, I hate the innocent blood that has been shed in the name of Zionism!

I also hate the policies of the PA, PLO, Iranians, Syrians, etc…. and the innocent blood that they have shed.

It is quite clear by your posts that you are only here to voice your opinion as a Jordanian, and there is no room for intellectual conversations that tread beyond your personal beliefs.

Are you part of the problem?

reply to post by tvtexan


Apologies, but I'm here to try and educate people about how Palestine was stolen from the Palestinians.
If you present an actual argument, I will not deflect it and I will gladly take part in it.

Originally posted by tvtexan
So what happened before 1882?
Did the arabs just show up one day that year?

Your "timeline" is short by a couple thousand years.

In ancient times, say 2500 years ago,

were there any Jews in the Middle East with European bloodlines ?


Science tells us that the original "J" Haplogroup started around 30,000 years ago in present day Yemen.

J2

Main article: Haplogroup J2 (Y-DNA)

Haplogroup J2 is found in the highest concentrations in the Caucasus and the Fertile Crescent and is found throughout the Mediterranean (including the Italian, Balkan, Anatolian and Iberian peninsulas and North Africa).[22]

The highest ever reported concentration of J2 was 72% in Northeastern Georgia.[23] Other high reports include Ingush 32%,[23] Cypriots 30-37% (Capelli 2005), Lebanese 30% (Wells et al. 2001), Iraqis 29.7% (Sanchez et al. 2005), Syrians 22.5%[citation needed], Kurds 24%-28%, Iranians 23%,[24] Ashkenazi Jews 24%, Palestinian Arabs 16.8%-25%, Sephardic Jews 29%[2] and North Indian Shia Muslims 18%,[1] Chechens 26%, Balkars 24%, Yaghnobis 32%, Armenians 21-24%, and Azerbaijanis 24%-48%.

Consistent with its Middle Eastern extent, J2 also includes the Cohen Modal Haplotype.

Haplogroup J (Y-DNA)


which was first, genetics or religion ?

While you present an argument, here's some food for thought.

Reports of pressure
A telegram signed by 26 US senators with influence on foreign aid bills was sent to wavering countries, seeking their support for the partition plan.[47] Many nations reported pressure directed specifically at them:
United States: President Truman later noted, "The facts were that not only were there pressure movements around the United Nations unlike anything that had been seen there before, but that the White House, too, was subjected to a constant barrage. I do not think I ever had as much pressure and propaganda aimed at the White House as I had in this instance. The persistence of a few of the extreme Zionist leaders—actuated by political motives and engaging in political threats—disturbed and annoyed me."[48]

India: Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru spoke with anger and contempt for the way the UN vote had been lined up. He said the Zionists had tried to bribe India with millions and at the same time his sister, Vijaya Lakshmi Pandit, had received daily warnings that her life was in danger unless "she voted right".[49]

Liberia: Liberia's Ambassador to the United States complained that the US delegation threatened aid cuts to several countries.[50] Harvey S. Firestone, Jr., President of Firestone Natural Rubber Company, with major holdings in the country, also pressured the Liberian government[43][47]

Philippines: In the days before the vote, the Philippines' representative General Carlos P. Romulo stated "We hold that the issue is primarily moral. The issue is whether the United Nations should accept responsibility for the enforcement of a policy which is clearly repugnant to the valid nationalist aspirations of the people of Palestine. The Philippines Government holds that the United Nations ought not to accept such responsibility". After a phone call from Washington, the representative was recalled and the Philippines' vote changed.[47]

Haiti: The promise of a five million dollar loan may have secured Haiti's vote for partition.

Source

Moshe Sharett stated in a speech to the Zionist Actions Committee, the
supreme policy making body between the Zionists congresses of the World Zionist Organization,
on 22 April 1937 in Jerusalem:

"The proposed Jewish state [referring to the proposed 1937 Peel
Commission partition plan] territory would not be continuous; its borders
would be twisted and broken; the question of defending the frontier line would
pose enormous difficulties .... the frontier line would separate villages from
their fields .... Moreover the [Palestinian] Arab reaction would be negative
because they would lose everything and gain almost nothing ..... in contrast to
us they would lose totally that part of Palestine which they consider to be an
Arab country and are fighting to keep it such ... They would lose the richest
part of Palestine; they would lose major Arab assets, the orange plantations,
the commercial and industrial centers and the most important sources of revenue
for their government which would become impoverished; they would lose most of
the coastal area, which would also be loss to the hinterland Arab states..... It
would mean that they would be driven back to the desert ('Zorkim Otam') .... A
Jewish territory [state] with fewer Arab subjects would make it easy for us but
it would also mean procrustean bed for us while a plan based on expansion into
larger territory would mean more [Palestinian] Arab subjects in the Jewish
territory.

For the next 10 years the possibility of transferring the Arab population would
not be 'practical'. As for the long-term future: I am prepared to see in this a
vision, not a mystical way but in a realistic way, of a population exchange on a
much more important scale and including larger territories. As for now, we must
not forget who would have to exchange the land? those villages which live more
than others on irrigation, on orange and fruit plantations, in houses built near
water wells and pumping stations, on livestock and property and easy access to
markets. Where would they go? What would they receive in return? ... This would
be such an uprooting, such a shock, the likes of which had never occurred and
could drown the whole thing in rivers of blood. At this stage let us not
entertain ourselves with the analogy of population transfer between Turkey and
Greece; there were different conditions there. Those Arabs who would remain
would revolt; would the Jewish state be able to suppress the revolt without
assistance from the British Army?" (Expulsion
Of The Palestinians, p. 59-60)

Originally posted by ghash
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Honestly, with all due respect (and I mean that), but the plight of Jews throughout Europe does not add or take away from this discussion, it is simply irrelevant. Okay fine, Jews were kicked out 2000 years ago from the land of Ancient Israel. But by the Roman Empire, hence the Palestinians have nothing to do with it, now do they?
So that's number one.

As for number two, ever since Palestine joined the Islamic Empire around 636 CE, Arab Palestinians have lived there. And it has been around 1400 years.
Until now it is all fact, can you not agree?

And THEN my dear friend, is where the real shi*t happened, Arab Palestinians had their lands taken away, had to deal with British soldiers in their homeland, Jewish terrorist organisations (Irgun, etc), immense numbers of Jewish immigrants from Europe, and were massacred, and literally pushed into the sea.



Now tell me exactly, how is that justified just because TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO Jewish people lived there?!

This is where religion ties into it and there can be no escape from it, not ever. Why? Because they are God's chosen people and there is no escaping him once you have given yourself to him, no power in the universe can take you from him. The Israelites will be inexoribly pulled back to the land no matter how hard they try to escape from it. That land is a blessing and a curse. Even though the majority of the israelites were wiped out or sold into slavery in europe the sephardim have been living in those lands since it became palestine because the sephardim are the decendants of the jews who escape Rome's vengeance and they returned when the heat settled. Even if the Ashkenazi Zionists didn't have a claim to that land the Sephardim do and they have been there ever since. The truth is that even though their numbers had greatly dwindled, they never left that land so that land is not the palestinians to take. Jerusalem belongs to the Sephardim jews, all of it, and all of Israel as well and its a damned good thing they are a peaceful people who choose to share and live in peace with the local muslim and christian because if they so chose they have the right to boot all of you out, including the zionists.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Hahaha, honestly? I was condemned by the other poster because I'm not arguing against this?
Wait so let me get this correctly the first time, God is a real estate agent which somehow enabled and allowed the Jews to kick out the Palestinians, so they can take what is rightfully theirs, because they are God's chosen people?
So God is a racist? And pro-Zionist?

Cool.

Originally posted by ghash
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Hahaha, honestly? I was condemned by the other poster because I'm not arguing against this?
Wait so let me get this correctly the first time, God is a real estate agent which somehow enabled and allowed the Jews to kick out the Palestinians, so they can take what is rightfully theirs, because they are God's chosen people?
So God is a racist? And pro-Zionist?

Cool.

edit on 25/12/11 by ghash because: (no reason given)

The answer depends on who wrote the religious texts and when they wrote them !