OWS's Failure - A New Reason From the Gallup Poll

reply to post by Chewingonmushrooms


The problems we have with business started when we allowed mega corporations to form. Prior to that, most businesses were regional. Bakeries, meat markets, hardware stores, etc were locally owned. If you needed furniture, you had the local cabinet maker build it for you. That is the business model we need to return to. But it has to start at the resource level. until we can get the materials to be able to build and produce locally for a competitive cost, then it will never change. As long as the corporate monsters control our resources, they will dictate the cost of goods.

The other issue is generally speaking, people who make their own products to sell seem to think they need to get rich from every sale. My wife and I attend craft shows throughout the summer. It is amazing how some of this stuff is simple to make, and cost pennies, yet are so expensive the average person can't afford it. Yes it's handmade, but that does not justify raping someone on the price. A lot of these crafter's talk about corporatism, yet practice the very same thing they oppose. Kind of like do as I say, not as I do. That has got to change.

Want to change things? Then take this model and begin using it. Learn a trade and start producing your own products for sale in your community. It only takes a spark to start a fire.

Originally posted by haarvik
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

Look, bottom line is you can try and justify OWS all you want. The fact remains that myself, and a fairly large percentage of Americans view it in another light. At this stage of the game, because of what we know or perceive about OWS, it is not going to change. We don't like it, we don't support and we never will. Period. All of these OWS threads do nothing more than reinforce what we believe about the movement.

At this stage, it is probably in the best interest of the OWS supporters on this board to just let sleeping dogs lie. Let spring roll around and see if OWS actually does what it says it does. Listen to the people and act accordingly. There are more people against OWS than there are for it. Listen to what we have said, let it sink in. Then regroup and formulate a plan that is palatable and relevant to the rest of us and you might, MIGHT get our support.

You sound like a BofA rep

The problem is, the movement has been defamed by the bought mass media...that's why the poll isn't representative. If you ask the population if they think the middle class should suffer so the top 1% can get their tax breaks, they're against it. If you ask them if it's ok to hand out massive tax breaks to companies that then ship jobs off shore is ok, they're against it. If you ask people if corporations should be allowed to buy politicians, they're against it. If you ask them if those ruining the economy (Wall Street) should go to jail for it...they're in favor of it, and often surprised that it hasn't happened yet.

Of course the actual issues aren't really being discussed in the mass media, which is why a ton of people have no clue about the issues and OWS.

If your opinion is how the majority of Ron Paul supporters, I'm kinda glad he stands zero chance at winning the presidency though

reply to post by MrXYZ


There is a HUGE difference in know what is right/wrong with the system, and sitting around playing bongos in a park. You apparently missed my entire post. It is the perception, right or wrong, of OWS that has killed it. No one is saying that the points you mentioned are valid. What we did say was the method of addressing them was wrong. The TP gained popularity because they conducted themselves in an organized and respectful manner. They focused on the important topics and targeted government. Which part of that don't you get? What I am saying is that if OWS wants to gain popularity and momentum, then it needs to study the playbook of the TP to see how to effectively do it. Camping out in public parks playing your bongos while denouncing the millionaires of this world isn't going to garner you any support. That's all I am saying.

you also have to realize that when people like Micheal Moore, Nancy Pelosi and Susan Sarandon start lending their support, main stream America just tunes out. Acorn being involved (under a different name) and so on is what has turned main stream America off. They self destructed with the best of intentions. This is what happens when there is no leadership. Someone will drop in to fill those shoes.

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by theovermensch

 

Dear theovermensch,

This is a bad way to start the morning. Please let me explain.

OWS stands for Occupy Wall Street, not Occupy D.C. The protests are against the bankers who have corrupted the system, the big CEOs, and wealth inequality. They haven't protested politicians or laws to any great extent. Maybe they've protested Citizens United, but that's the Supreme Court, which is not normally considered part of Big Government.

We may have a disagreement in our opinions, but it does not make you look good to accuse me of lying.

With respect,
Charles1952

Why do you people keep peddling this straw-man propaganda???

DC IS ALREADY BEING OCCUPIED!!! DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!!!!!

occupydc.org...

Originally posted by haarvik
I find it amazing that people ask about support or lack thereof for OWS, and when given an honest answer, do nothing more than flame the answers. If you don't want to know what people truly think, then don't ask. You can justify your support all you want, and that is fine. But you aren't going to change the views others have of OWS. Not gonna happen.

The poll wasn't a poll on OWS... in case you didn't take the very easy effort to notice.

As for the poll in relation to the conclusions of the OP... it's a jump to conclusions that has little bearing on OWS, and in fact, supports it.

Most within OWS are against BOTH big government AND big business. And no... they're not typically against government ACTUALLY HELPING THE PEOPLE FOR ONCE, they're against the military-industrial complex, the police state, unconstitutional measures post-9/11, restriction of free speech, legalized bribery/private interest corruption, and so on. It's a simple concept to grasp really. If you seriously want to claim that the right-wing is against big government, I'll only half believe you because many of them seem to be FOR militarism, FOR increased police state measures, FOR increased measures against terrorists, FOR bans on marijuana, and so on. I'll admit, many right-wingers are waking up a little more, but the activist left has ALWAYS fought true big government, we technically own that turf... if you wanna come fight the power with us, go ahead, but don't pretend the right-wing owns the anti-government field, it never did nor will it ever (except to Fox News viewers).

reply to post by charles1952

that's why the Tea Party became a popular movement and OWS hasn't

Umm you lost me there, OWS was and is still bigger then the Tea Party. Actually the Tea Prty fizzled out.

Where are the 99%ers? Right here

It is kind of hard to protest

WHEN YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO PROTEST IN PUBLIC NOW

Our civil liberties are being encroached upon, we are being violently suppressed by the elites dogs (cops)

Another factor is the weather, consider us taking a break until spring and then we will re-surge.(people are still protesting this winter ) OWS is just the beginning of things to come, we will not forget the violent suppression and will address the police state. But if you ask me we need to move on to the federal resrve. As well as address government corruption.

The OP is making a straw man argument, to the Anti-OWS shills WE ARE NOT GOING AWAY! And you can tell your boss at BoA to put it in his pipe and smoke it and to EXPECT US!

refer to my signature

Originally posted by charles1952

OWS stands for Occupy Wall Street, not Occupy D.C. The protests are against the bankers who have corrupted the system, the big CEOs, and wealth inequality.

did the banksters corrupt the political elites too?
have you ever thought of that?
explain, please.
thank you.

reply to post by charles1952

Gallup finds that 64% of Americans fear "Big Government" the most, with 26% afraid of "Big Business," and 8% afraid of "Big Labor."

Thanks to the corporate PR campaign. Big corporations own the media - and the media owns most peoples' minds. Distract and deflect.

Even here on ATS, where most people know (or should know) that international corporations own the government, paid corporate shills push the 'blame the big bad government' line - and people buy it!

Go figure.

S&F for a good effort. But I don't think OWS needs to change their focus or presentation - the revolution is not dead. Just a bit dormant for the winter.

reply to post by theovermensch


Overmensch, OWS has targeted Big Business, not govt. where are their placards demanding Nancy Pelosi stop insider trading? Where are they criticizing POTUS for his deal with BP Oil in the Big Spill? They want more govt intervention and more entitlements, you know to pay for their student loans and such. They have expressly called for the ending of Capitalism. Even the organizers are expressly against corporations, not govt.

reply to post by MrXYZ


Oh of course, anyone who is not on board with OWS must of necessity be a representative of BoA

Originally posted by soficrow
reply to post by charles1952

 

Gallup finds that 64% of Americans fear "Big Government" the most, with 26% afraid of "Big Business," and 8% afraid of "Big Labor."

Thanks to the corporate PR campaign. Big corporations own the media - and the media owns most peoples' minds. Distract and deflect.

Even here on ATS, where most people know (or should know) that international corporations own the government, paid corporate shills push the 'blame the big bad government' line - and people buy it!

Go figure.

S&F for a good effort. But I don't think OWS needs to change their focus or presentation - the revolution is not dead. Just a bit dormant for the winter.

Looks like we have our choice of Big Business or the State. Think: Pravda Ru.....How fun would that be, to have all the media be owned by the State and subject to the govt directly...does anyone think about this stuff before screaming about how terrible the private sector is?

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

Oh of course, anyone who is not on board with OWS must of necessity be a representative of BoA

No just the outright vocal ones spreading disinformation such as yourself. Nothing wrong with disagreeing with the direction of OWS or the ideology of them, but spreading bile infused jabs towards them that in most cases has no basis makes you either one that they are protesting against or a partisan hack. I'll go with the latter.

reply to post by NoHierarchy


It appears they are only concerned with Police, which are authorities, not govt. I haven't heard one whisper against govt officials, except perhaps against Scott Walker but only because Big Labor was out in force with OWS. I doubt Walker has much pull with Goldman Sachs.

Originally posted by Chewingonmushrooms

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

Oh of course, anyone who is not on board with OWS must of necessity be a representative of BoA

No just the outright vocal ones spreading disinformation such as yourself. Nothing wrong with disagreeing with the direction of OWS or the ideology of them, but spreading bile infused jabs towards them that in most cases has no basis makes you either one that they are protesting against or a partisan hack. I'll go with the latter.

edit on 15-12-2011 by Chewingonmushrooms because: (no reason given)

edit on 15-12-2011 by Chewingonmushrooms because: (no reason given)

Oh right, so I can't be against the socialist stance of OWS? What you view as bile is actually the understanding of the encroachment of liberty by the socialist/communist agenda of Soros and others. You can, if you like, ignore the CPUSA and Communist Party operatives and the anarcho-socialists calling for direct democracy, but I will not.
I do not care for BoA and am most definitely not a spokesperson for them. But that simply is not my issue, its socialism and communism hiding withing the folds of the OWS garments I have trouble with.


Maybe you could cite specific posts I have made which have no basis? I have always cited sources and articles explaining the connections, and so have others here. Just because people such as yourself refuse to see what's in front of you is not my fault. It's a fact that Adbusters is specifically anti-corporate and they were exposed as having communist connections. Ruckus Society also was involved in the organization, and they get funding from Tides. Soros is an Intl Socialist and a manipulator of world currencies. His influence is yet all over OWS. How sad that people completely ignore it.How sad that so many people do not understand that direct democracy undermines our Republic and our Constitution, or.... are you actually for undermining the Constitution? We know that Soros and his minions are trying to rewrite the Constitution. What part of that don't you get? I have done the work of finding out what these people are doing, and you refuse to open your eyes. I am not sure if it is willful or lack of reasoning.

Gentlemen and Ladies,

Please let me respond to a trend this seems to be taking. But, of course, it's your thread and you can do whatever you want with it. I'm just another member.

People want a way to change society. Isn't that the goal? What have we got to work with to do that? Forget, for a minute, that the Tea Party and OWS ever existed. Wipe them out of your minds. Now start fresh, what have we got?

We have a population that is wildly dissatisfied with the way things are going. Most of the dissatisfaction is aimed at goverment. The importance of the poll in the OP was that it identifies the target that Americans are more likely to want to act on. You could say that the bankers should be the target, but that's not where the people want to go now.

Ok, so who wants to change the government? OWSers say they want to, but for whatever reasons, and there are several, that message hasn't gotten out, nor does it seem likely that it will. True or false, OWS has been labelled as anti-capitalist, or anti-corrupt capitalism.

The Tea Party is the group with great credentials on going after government, but it has the hatred of the media a huge handicap.

Please, shed your emotions that lead you to be over-sensitive when a group you like is criticised. That's how we all learn. What did we do that was less than perfect, and how can we do it better?

If you want change, use all available forces. My best guess (but it's only a guess) is a merger of the people making up OWS and the Tea Party. Leave out the naked, rapist, druggies, and the ignorant, racist, haters. From those people you can craft a movement aimed at one target, the government, with a clear and limited set of goals. Check out some of haarvik's posts in this thread, he seems to have a good head for this.

But please, don't fool yourselves. Look to the goal and how to get there, not what has happened in the past. take advantage of the fact that so many Americans have complaints with their government. More people would vote for Obama again than trust the government. How can you get less popular than Obama and not invite an attack? Don't fight each other, help each other.

Look at what you'd have. The millions of people and clean image of the Tea Party plus the youth, media support and money of OWS. Conservatives and liberals working together to change government. Who's going to resist that?

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus



Have you actually been to any rallies? If you have then you would see that ALL are welcomed, communists, socialists, libertarians, conservatives (yes can you believe it?), anarchists and so on and so forth. There is no discrimination.

But to take right wing talking head points about what the OWS is about without taking the time to go there yourself nor taking the time to read their declaration makes your opinion moot. As for the Soros thing, hmmm prove to me your aren't a partisan hack: What do you think of the proven Koch brothers link to the Tea Party, and in your opinion does that mean that the ideal behind the Tea Party isn't from those that participate but rather those of billionaires that help fund them?

Tea Party supporters are there because they are for the people, just like the OWS is there for the people. Everyone is invited but no one has a monopoly over what comes out as their content.

reply to post by charles1952


They did it themselves with signs that say expressly, "End Capitalism". They gave themselves that label. When they marched side by side with the Communist Party they gave themselves that label. When people went up to the mic on the livestream and demanded to end capitalism, they gave themselves that label. When they demand direct democracy in place of the Republic, they gave themselves the label. When they targeted Wall Street investors, they targeted anyone with a 401k portfolio. They also targeted anyone who ever invested in any corporation which makes bandages and instruments for hospitals and health care clinics. Who is going to make bandages? Will OWS? Who is going to manufacture the instruments they want for their free health care? Perhaps they actually envision themselves as the proletariat who owns these manufacturers? After all, that is what communism is. If you are against private corporations, you must be for a proletariat dictatorship, unless you somehow think that we will do fine without bandages and surgical instruments.


What are the choices here? Privately owned or publicly owned?

Originally posted by Chewingonmushrooms
reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

 

Have you actually been to any rallies? If you have then you would see that ALL are welcomed, communists, socialists, libertarians, conservatives (yes can you believe it?), anarchists and so on and so forth. There is no discrimination.

But to take right wing talking head points about what the OWS is about without taking the time to go there yourself nor taking the time to read their declaration makes your opinion moot. As for the Soros thing, hmmm prove to me your aren't a partisan hack: What do you think of the proven Koch brothers link to the Tea Party, and in your opinion does that mean that the ideal behind the Tea Party isn't from those that participate but rather those of billionaires that help fund them?

Tea Party supporters are there because they are for the people, just like the OWS is there for the people. Everyone is invited but no one has a monopoly over what comes out as their content.

edit on 15-12-2011 by Chewingonmushrooms because: (no reason given)

Why do I have to be at a rally in person, when I can sit in my own den and watch the livestream? I saw two people in Oakland go up to the mic, back to back, and in the space of 10 minutes both demanded the end of Capitalism. I saw the signs. I've done the research.
I know you think you are going up against the establishment, but OWS has targeted the private sector and not the public. The only demand they made relevant to Wall Street was Glass Steagall. But clearly, that isn't going to make a rats patoot difference if they do not hold Barney Frank's feet to the fire for his lack of responsible oversight. Barney sat there and said there is no problem with Fannie/Freddie. Barney got money from Fannie/Freddie.
Now if you have heard them demanding Barney Frank resign over this, then wonderful. But remember, it was Tea Party who held Frank's feet to the fire. I understand he is not going to be up for re election this time...

And yes, I HAVE read their declarations. That is how I know they are demanding direct democracy. That is how I know they are calling for a new ERA but this time they have added some language which I assume to be in addition to the original women's rights.
Have you ever read Phyllis Schlafly? Oh right she's right wing so you would never read her stuff.

Here, I'll help you

In 1971, when feminism first rushed onto the scene in the United States, a little band of women stormed the corridors of Congress and demanded the discharge from committee of the long-dormant Equal Rights Amendment. The House passed ERA on October 12, 1971, after rejecting the Wiggins Amendment which would have exempted women from "compulsory military service"

www.eagleforum.org...


What does ERA have to do with Wall Street? Absolutely nothing, so why is it one of their demands? Likely because they are leftist agitators and it has probably more to do with gays in the military than women's rights anyway, but now they have reworded the original amendment.

Oh yes, one of their rantings is about generic medicines, but not one peep about Codex Alimentarius which would bring all vitamin and herbal supplements and alternative medicine under the banner of the UN WHO and the standards of European limitations, that is, you would not be able to get high quantities of Vit C, but only those which limited the units to European standards.
This shows me that OWS is strictly for the communist One World movement and not for individual freedoms,
I bet you knew nothing about that did you?

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

Dear ThirdEyeofHorus,

I must have said something that was confusing or incorrect, forgive me. I am not opposed to capitalism. There hasn't been a greater wealth producing system. And it doesn't matter, if we're going forward, how OWS got the anti-capitalist label. They've got it and it will take some doing getting rid of, if they even want to.

I'm just hoping to find a way that will allow us to shed that, and other, negative labels so that the majority of Americans can feel comfortable supporting us, whoever that "us" turns out to be.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

Looks like we have our choice of Big Business or the State.

Where do you live? Big Business IS the State.