OWS's Failure - A New Reason From the Gallup Poll

reply to post by charles1952


To effectively have a balanced panel, I think you would need a mix, but NO party representatives. Once you involve one or the other, it becomes a bickering frenzy and nothing will get accomplished. It should be intelligent, ordinary citizens. There should also be a mix of OWS minded and TP minded persons as well. It has to be balanced, and it has to be moderated. There really has to be a discussion on the important aspects of our countries politics as they stand, and what the solutions should be. The dialog has to focus primarily on how to stop the status quot and move forward with a joint, progressive movement to reclaim our representation. This panel should also be putting the focus on corrupt practices and pointing out the ones who are playing to their contributors instead of their constituents. By doing this, you put the current political landscape under the spotlight and those serving in the hot seat. As the 60 minutes segment showed, if you paint them in a bad light, they tend to pay attention.

reply to post by haarvik

Dear haarvik,

You've given me, and other ATSers as well, I hope, something for serious thought.

The question of timing has been brought up, though, and I think it should be factored in. If Obama gets reelected, I don't see a way of stopping Big Government. Maybe I'm being pessimistic, but even if Obama doesn't get reelected I don't see how things can continue for long.

Do we need to get existing groups to help? Or can this be done from common people working their way up? I'm a little doubtful of the second approach because we have so many small groups starting up saying that they have the solution. Would we get lost in all the noise?

Do we even need a group? Would a five person group on YouTube do the trick? I'm really ignorant here. I have no facebook or twitter account, I don't use google, and my own experience with YouTube is watching some of the videos posted here.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


It can be done, and yes from the ground up. It is never too late, as the TP showed. But it would require a support group dedicated to promoting it and getting it coverage in the social media circles. If one can get the right promoters it can go viral in short order. The thing that will propel it is the sincerity of those involved, and willingness to address the issues straightforward and without bringing any partisan baggage. Nothing will kill a movement quicker than if they smell partisan politics.

As I eluded to earlier, a picture is worth a thousand words. If this were to be done, then it would have to have a polished look. It would have to appear to have a solid structure and format. Pull that off, and I think you would have a winner. Once it goes viral, it will get attention. It's at that moment that you had better have your ducks in a row and be committed to the message or the MSM will tear you apart.

OWS to open another Camp

rt.com...

Protesters aim to make Duarte Square at Canal and Varick streets in Manhattan their new home. With participants in this weekend’s festivities giving law enforcement fair warning of their intentions, however, the events that will unfold on Saturday stand to be as monumental as the other landmark days of the movement.

OWS failed because of the people involved. Why whitewash it?

Those who are left are so in your face going after the wrong targets it's made them into laughing stocks and a public nuisance at the same time.

Most don't even know what they protesting for and are just there for the Happening, or because they get off on it.

Doing things like blocking Ports is insane on its face. Camping out in parks is not protest to begin with. It's just children in adult bodies acting like children.

Whatever serious informed people with common sense that were involved left in disgust long ago.

They just don't seem to grasp that the problem lies in DC. They don't seem to understand that you cannot beat the system, but you can use it to cause change for the better. They want everything right now, this second as if that were possible, which again demonstrates they have no idea what they are even protesting against.

Those who are demanding handouts are the same loosers we have always had among us. They have learned from our corrupt vote buying government that if they scream loud enough the government will give them things to shut them up. The government just like bad parents caves in to get their votes. It's really that simple.

Takers will always be with us and now and then, just like a child throwing a temper tantrum for candy in a checkout line, they will join together and throw a collective tantrum. They want their candy and they want it now and no way are they going to clean their room or do their dishes to earn it.

OWS failed because nobody is being fooled. Let it die.

This thread shifted gears slightly after a misunderstanding at the beginning. A very interesting thought came from the idea that some of the things the Tea Party hated, OWS hated too. But OWS has a terrible reputation, deserved or not depends on your point of view. But they do have some energy and dedication. So do the Tea Partiers, so does Ron Paul.

The thread started exploring the question "Can some of the goals of both OWS and Tea Party be worked on as a joint effort to crete a truly massive movement for a change that normal people can accept?"

You've seen posters offer very good and practical ideas on how to create a movement the way it should be. A movement that would draw in the center of the country and be large enough to influence the elections.

Very few people dispute that OWS did'nt accomplish what they wanted to this year. They're laying down new plans. Can we bring those plans closer to the people who fear Big Government and win them into the new movement?

Steps have already been proposed. Add to them, criticize them, but offer what you know. This does have a chance to succeed.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
OWS failed because of the people involved.

I always got the impression that OWS was just a kind of flash mob that got out of control. They tried unconventional organization, and it failed because conventional organizations are the way they are because they evolved that way to work. OWS saw it as evil to become the same kind of organization they were trying to protest.

That wasn't only thing they were wrong about. The other major fault was trying to come up with a kind of "catch all" group to protest a variety of things. That was horribly misguided (unguided). How do lobbyists get things done? They target a very small issue and goal and focus their resources on it. Specificity and focus.

Well, maybe somebody in the group will someday grow up to be politically useful. But then again, as far as I'm concerned politics is just organized theft of tax money, so I really don't want to encourage anybody.

As a supporter of OWS, I could see when I visited ZP in the 3rd week that it had attracted the homeless, drug addicts, and runaways. I was bummed-out but then I realized that you have to let them be apart of it, they are citizens too.

Being atomized and diffused is not so bad....it's just like our society. Sort of thread bare and confused. That's what having a diverse population does. It's hard to take a stance, because you are bound to offend some group. But on the other hand "they" can't find the center of it to drag it through the mud.

Although, the original organizers of OWS was the group that puts out Adbusters, ever read that magazine? They are Canadian proto or paleo Maxists, so I never had the slightest hope that the Tea Party or Conservatives would join in. (But I love that magazine. Anti-Consumerism. Anti-Brain Washing.) But then the 99% slogan kicked in and I got my hopes up just a tad...now it's back when it began.

When I hear the opponents of OWS saying stuff like "quit your tantrum" "don't blame the banks" or "take a bath" it makes me kind of grin because that's the type of rhetoric that put a stop to my Republican phase.

I don't think going after the money crooks is a bad strategy in the long run....All races, all creeds and both sexes have contributed to the mess.

And again, imho, Wall Street and Pennsylvania Ave are joined at the hip.

(*i was being sarcastic with my made up % number, sorry I did not make that clear.)

Originally posted by theovermensch

Originally posted by butterflyowl
Business and government are 84% one and the same.
And is it really fizzling? Feels to me like it is just starting.
Occupation does not have to be tents nor sleeping over-night.

I agree. They have taken all that money they raised and are planning a strategy for the 2012 elections. They will beat the duoploy at its own game. They havent gone anywhere.

Thanks. But that's the other thing that worried me, after hearing about the large sum of donations and the inevitable squabbling that ensued, I thought why does an idea need money???

Dear Blue Shift,

I agree, I agree, I agree. But if a movement is to be created for change to we have to throw out all of OWS? ACORN rebranded and their back to getting money and support.

Imagine OWS without the "socialist" reputation, and the "Hippy" image. They have a huge social networking team, and dedicated protesters. Can we combine that with the Tea Party's massive grass roots support, and all-American image, to work on a few targeted goals that each agree on.

haarvik, earlier in the thread, thought that we could also just get well spoken "normal" citizens, I don't know, Joe the Plumber? and create a campaign using citizens in viral forums.

What's pushing me is the idea that time is limited and that this would have a chance to work. I'm not sure that there is time for people to "someday grow up to be politically useful."

Consider the alternatives, 4 more Obama years? Romney, Bachman? What happens to the country then? I know this sound megalomaniacal, but I'd like to try to help set something up.

WIth respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by butterflyowl

Just responding to your ides that Wall Street and Pennsylvania Avenue are joined at the hip. Ok, fine, but that was the point of the Gallup Poll. Americans are more afraid of Big Government, so there will be more support for attacking there.

Tea party types and OWSers should be able to agree on that certainly. What a movement that would make.

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by butterflyowl

 

Just responding to your ides that Wall Street and Pennsylvania Avenue are joined at the hip. Ok, fine, but that was the point of the Gallup Poll. Americans are more afraid of Big Government, so there will be more support for attacking there.

Tea party types and OWSers should be able to agree on that certainly. What a movement that would make.

I guess I think it's a sort of "push poll" it may have been designed to enforce the (imo wrong) idea that there is a large difference.

Yes, if both sides could come together before there's large scale unrest would be ideal, but I think we all know
that there is huge money making sure that that does not happen. "Opinion makers" are out in force. Right and Left.

We have to remember that around 85% of the population still have jobs. And no matter what the Grover Norquist types think - government bureaucracy works for a vast amount of the people, not just in hand-outs either.

Thanks Charles for the even handed thread, I'd give a star but I'm a newbie.

Originally posted by Blue Shift

Originally posted by Blaine91555
OWS failed because of the people involved.

I always got the impression that OWS was just a kind of flash mob that got out of control. They tried unconventional organization, and it failed because conventional organizations are the way they are because they evolved that way to work.

edit on 13-12-2011 by Blue Shift because: (no reason given)

Should someone start or link to an existing thread where we could debate if the OWS movement is over and failed?

The way I look at it (and of course I'm biased, I'm a lefty, and want it to work) it is only 4 MONTHS along and winter has set in. Most people like me can't afford to be arrested. If I could I'd be there in a heartbeat.

Originally posted by charles1952
They have a huge social networking team, and dedicated protesters.

Again, the point is lack of focus and organization. Just communicating isn't enough. You have to be clear about WHAT you want to communicate. If you want tax reform, then you start a Tax Reform Party, or join one already in progress (I'm sure there are plenty). Fighting the 1% is just as vague as the War on Drugs. You can be organized, and even spend a lot of money, but nothing's going to get done unless you pick specific goals and concentrate on them.

Unfortunately OWS is a prime example of ADHD in action.

reply to post by charles1952


I have said this all along. The problem is the system. The system that allows the politicians/ceos to do as they want while the citizens are oblivious. The citizens don't care nor will they care. This is by design. It is what gives the bad guys their power.

This is where OWS comes in. I can't believe they think they will actually change anything directly by protesting business. BUT. I do think that they rightly believe that more of the hoi polloi will pay attention with them targetting businesses than if they target government. It has been proven time and again that protesting government gets no where. But if you shut down the ports and all of the sudden Joe T. Smith cannot get his viagra pills then he will want to know why.

However, this is a head on attack on the system. But you know what? The system is not fighting fair. The bad guys are not coming out and saying "Stop paying attention! Go to sleep!". Not directly.

We need to fight fire with fire. We need to find a way to bring politics to the forefront of EVERYONE's mind. I can see only one way to accomplish this. And that is to use the weapon of the enemy against them. That's right. We need to turn the whole political system into an extragavant reality show!

Can you imagine what it would be like if people cared as much about how elected officials vote as they do about who gets voted off of American Idol or Survivor?

I'm not sure how accurately 1,012 people can represent all of americans, even if randomly. This is why I don't like polls. While it may be true that certain towns cities or regions have a political ideology majority, I think it's much more diverse than it used to be. People are moving based on jobs now not so much on the best schools for their child or local recreation and local politics is probably last on the list of considerations.

Occupy is just a general resistance movement.

Many of the people at Occupy would probably agree with OP that government etc should be the target.

OWS has not failed. I am pretty sure what we have seen is just a taste of what we will see in the Spring, Summer, and Fall of 2012.

reply to post by CREAM


It has failed. Name one thing...ONE THING that they got resolved from their list of grievances. Nothing! At least the TP DID accomplish something. Now you can argue the movement was high-jacked by the repubs, but the goals they set out to accomplish worked. They ousted long term politicians and elected their politicians. Now tell me again how protesting government doesn't work? The TP started as a movement against big government and over taxation. The freshmen TP members have fought hard to try and correct the issues we have with a financially irresponsible government. Of course then both sides tried to paint them as against the common man because they didn't want to increase our countries debt load. That right there should have sent a message to ALL Americans that their government could care less about them. All they cared about was ME ME ME!

Originally posted by haarvik
reply to post by CREAM

 

It has failed. Name one thing...ONE THING that they got resolved from their list of grievances. Nothing! At least the TP DID accomplish something. Now you can argue the movement was high-jacked by the repubs, but the goals they set out to accomplish worked. They ousted long term politicians and elected their politicians. Now tell me again how protesting government doesn't work? The TP started as a movement against big government and over taxation. The freshmen TP members have fought hard to try and correct the issues we have with a financially irresponsible government. Of course then both sides tried to paint them as against the common man because they didn't want to increase our countries debt load. That right there should have sent a message to ALL Americans that their government could care less about them. All they cared about was ME ME ME!

Most importantly Occupy has gotten people talking, and thinking. That is worth all of the overtime police salies right there alone.

One concrete thing? Easy, the OCCUPY amendment introduced into congress - www.naturalnews.com...

Another important thing - for example, I saw posters saying "End the fed" and others with founding farther quotes at my hometown Occupy Norfolk, seemed like they had the right idea. Small acts like these help wake people up, and education is the first step of the revolution. Protest does serve a real purpose.

Occupy has not only confirmed we live in a police state, they have made it abundantly clear it is actually time for a revolution - www.abovetopsecret.com...

Also very importantly, they have helped draw attention to online message boards and IRCs to help fellow revolutionaries around the world to plan and organize with or without privacy. This is an important start which will should help a lot in the long term. This sort of organization was not possible 50 years, we will be see it grow faster and faster.

Also I support the ideals of the TP, I support Ron Paul, but I also think more hands on resistance action is still needed which is why I support OWS.