OWS's Failure - A New Reason From the Gallup Poll

reply to post by CREAM


Introduction of legislation by one politician, while commendable, is not a concrete success. Until it passes it is just an idea. For the record though, I applaud people exercising their right to assemble and address grievances with their leaders. But I also think their energy is misguided. Had OWS come out with one or two specific goals/demands, and targeted our elected officials, I would have been on board from the get go, and I'm sure many others would have as well. You can't claim to represent the 99% when you do not address what/where the 99% would prefer.

reply to post by charles1952


Then start by narrowing down the items that need to be addressed by importance. Get down to one or two specifics. Then start spreading the word and getting people on board. If the message is clear, and the topics specific, you will garner attention. Organizing a grass roots movement is not hard. It just takes a desire and planning. The Internet is your friend. Use it to your advantage and spread your message.

reply to post by charles1952

In a just released poll, Gallup finds that 64% of Americans fear "Big Government" the most, with 26% afraid of "Big Business," and 8% afraid of "Big Labor."

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That just shows how gullible and clueless the majority of people are. They don't realize that "big business" now IS the government. Politicians are mere paid sock puppets of Wall Street and big business.

How else do you explain that BofA was able to make all US taxpayers liable for $75 trillion (not a typo) of their risky derivatives investments...and it's LEGAL TOO!! Why? Because they bought the politicians passing the laws that make this possible. The key issue is that politicians are so easy to buy.

Just look at Newt for example, the man twitters the very candy brand that pays him $1.5m for "consulting". I guess they really needed a "historian"

When you ask an OWSer why they attacked big business instead of big government...the reply is...

"Big business is big government, they are one in the same."

So, why don't you attack big government and thereby attack big business?

If A=B then B=A....big bus=big gov...big gov=big bus

This would certainly open you up to more supporters...even people like me. The gun totin', God fearin', Constitution, business/entreprenuer crowd... because I do fear big government...but I also fear anything that challenges my way of life

... like someone saying I HAVE to give what I worked hard for to someone that has not done anything... I will help, always have...it's part of my Christian creed, but do not make me do that.

Kind of like the difference between making love and being raped...pretty much the same physical act, but for totally and tragically different reasons.

I know by what I read that the OWS and the Tea Party do have common points of interests... but everytime I ask what the OWS stands for all I get/got was.."Go read this." or "You don't understand." or "You can't relate because you are one of them."....and said so with great condescension and arrogance....

That wins friends everytime...NOT. So why do you think the other part of the 99% of America that is troubled finds no common ground with OWS? Why should they try?... we felt like we might get spat upon or defecated on...

What if OWs had approached this whole thing from a Constitutional viewpoint...the rights of the individual to self government, the restriction of lobbyists and business to lobby, limits on Congressional terms and Senate terms to limit the amount of influence peddaling, cutting Congressional salaries to meager levels to discourage power brokers and encourage people with sincerity to serve, tell us why higher taxes and steep punishments for unethical practices would be positive for regular small business owners.... perhaps the instalation of punitive taxes and tariffs on business that moved and operated overseas,yet wanted to benefit from America's markets...

Instead, by propaganda and by no clear voice or message we saw disgruntled youth...dirty, spoiled clamouring in parks with..."You don't understand."..."You disagree, so you are the 1%."

No...I want to understand...in your own words...our common vision for America and her future.

reply to post by AlreadyGone

So, why don't you attack big government and thereby attack big business?

Would you rather discuss and negotiate with the sock puppet (politicians, government) or the puppet master (big business)? Why waste time talking to obvious puppets???

reply to post by MrXYZ


You still don't get it. 'shakes head'
Big business is NOT going to change anything they do. They are self serving and will manipulate any legislation to their favor. You don't kill a snake by chopping off it's tail, you remove the head. Hence the need to target DC NOT WS! The whole OWS movement was about one thing and one thing only. Ending capitalism. Period. End of story. Had it been for the purpose of reigning in government, then DC would have been the target.

Geez people, wake up and smell the bacon!

Originally posted by charles1952
Where are the 99%?

They were never there to begin with. The mantra that somehow OWS was supported, or represented, 99% of Americans was one of those catchy fake phrases .. (like Obama's 'yes we can') ... that get people's attention but is really meaningless and false. Never did 99% of Americans support OWS .. and for OWS to say they represented 99% of America was a complete audacious lie.

reply to post by MrXYZ


Winston Churchill said that "Democracy is the worst form of government, but it is the best we've come up with so far."

Clint Eastwood in Magnum Force, when confronted by SFPD cop/ vigilantes about the system..." I don't like the system any more than you do, but for right now, it's the best we've got, and I intend to up hold it."

The US Constitution is set up so that American citizens can work with in it's bounds to make changes. I like the US Constitutional form of government. Yes...It has become corrupted, it has gone astray. However, if enough Americans join together...we can make the needed changes from within.

From what I have read and seen of and about the OWS, they would like to install a different form of government...that disturbs me. The choices they offer all sounjd like varied forms of socialism, which I am against.

Some may argue that the form of government we have mutated into socialism...I say yes, you are right . Which is why I am trying to change it back by using the legal means provided to me to do so.

An analogy would be...I like the car, but I don't like the driver...I don't like the way they are driving, I don't like how fast they are driving, I don't like the direction they are taking me or the car...so we need to change the driver....not wreck the car and lose everything.

Originally posted by haarvik
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

You still don't get it. 'shakes head'
Big business is NOT going to change anything they do. They are self serving and will manipulate any legislation to their favor. You don't kill a snake by chopping off it's tail, you remove the head. Hence the need to target DC NOT WS! The whole OWS movement was about one thing and one thing only. Ending capitalism. Period. End of story. Had it been for the purpose of reigning in government, then DC would have been the target.

Geez people, wake up and smell the bacon!

It's not about making them change stuff...but by putting pressure directly on them, by publicly outing them (which is the main goal OWS should have), they FORCE politicians to act. If they stop putting pressure on big business, politicians aren't forced to act.

So it's YOU who doesn't get it I'm afraid

reply to post by MrXYZ


No.. it is you that do not get it.

Until you have a majority...and you do not, you are but a blurb to big business. The very folks on Wall Street you are protesting against are sitting in suites in Japan, China, and Belgium...dining on fine foods laughing at the TV as they watch you and me here in America.

Frankly, concerned citizen groups that are appalled at an advertiser's ad on a certain show have more influence that OWS. Until you can create a national boycott or a national strike...OWS is a speed bump, that is all.

How do you get a speed bump to become a mountain... by incorporating other Americans. And that was the point of the OP... What do Americans fear?...a Poll. Unless you tap into that fear...Big Government...OWS will not reach it's full potential.

I like analogies... good way of illustrating a point.

Let's say you have Don Corleone running the government...you know, the head of the family in the GodFather. Now he is corrupt, But... he is making money off of business and opportunity.."the American way." And...everyone else is benefiting and having a good life and feeling safe... so they keep Don Corleone in power. Because they know he will also protect their American way of life. What's good for the Don is good for everyone.

Now, we throw out Don Corleone...suddenly we have a socialist ,a communist in power. Now, no matter how hard I work...I can't get any more. Even if I have a good idea or a great product, I am locked in where I am. Tha't not the American way. I have someone telling me how to work, where to work, how much to work, how much i can do, how much i can own, how much I have to give to help someone not working as hard...nope...not the American way.

Wow, suddenly...we are missing Don Corleone.

I would be willing to bet that there are a lot of people wishing for the good ol' days of Bill Clinton...and I never, ever thought I would ever say that. He was corrupt, he was a womanizer... but i knew he was getting rich off of the American way, and so he would protect that lifestyle.

These days, I feel like I awake on a terrible episode of the Twilight Zone...I go to sleep in America and wake up in the old Soviet Union... and I can't get out.

reply to post by AlreadyGone


I work for an investment company...and let me tell you, they don't think OWS is just a "blurp". A ton of companies, and that includes Goldman of course, are worried that the movement makes their wrongdoings a lot more public than before...THAT'S what they're worried about.

I mean, the general public worries about a $15 trillion deficit...when they are liable for $75 TRILLION (!!!) of BofA's risky derivatives investments. Most people don't have a clue, and that's where OWS comes in. They are lacking leadership, but they DID bring those issues out into the public.

Originally posted by haarvik
reply to post by CREAM

 

It has failed. Name one thing...ONE THING that they got resolved from their list of grievances. Nothing! At least the TP DID accomplish something. Now you can argue the movement was high-jacked by the repubs, but the goals they set out to accomplish worked. They ousted long term politicians and elected their politicians. Now tell me again how protesting government doesn't work? The TP started as a movement against big government and over taxation. The freshmen TP members have fought hard to try and correct the issues we have with a financially irresponsible government. Of course then both sides tried to paint them as against the common man because they didn't want to increase our countries debt load. That right there should have sent a message to ALL Americans that their government could care less about them. All they cared about was ME ME ME!

Actually they made the Governor (who's a democrat) change his stauch stance not reinstating the "Millionaire tax" (his previous stance was very unpopular in NYC). They also put the gross inequality that has been getting worse across our nation on the front pages and into discussion. I say that's success. Watch out for the spring.

reply to post by MrXYZ


I agree with all you said in that post... concerns and info were brough to the forefront.

What I am asking for are reasons and common ground to bring the various movements and protests together...

To me, it is not so much the reasons for concern that cause a wall to come between us, but the solutions we each offer.

People like me want to correct the system and government, and what I am hearing too often from OWS...is the installation of a totally new government and system.

You and I have the same concerns... but business is global, out US government is pretty much here in the US. Big business can go overseas...however, the president is only the president here.

We change government and the rules it plays by, we can then restrict and change business conducted in the US.

By trying to change business, it will just go somewhere else and be corrupt from afar.

reply to post by AlreadyGone


Ahh yes! You hit the nail on the head!
Why do people think all those manufacturing jobs went overseas? Too much regulation, and too much high paying union jobs that's why. You can't have free trade agreements and not expect manufacturers to move there operations to areas that would increase their margins. They moved because regulations are not as strict, and labor costs were minimal. They did not have to bow to strong arm unions. If I were a manufacturer I would have done the same thing. Any manufacturer would have at least considered it. Throw out these free trade agreements and go back to tariffs. Penalize companies that moved their operations to other countries so they have an incentive to bring the jobs back.

reply to post by MrXYZ


Look, bottom line is you can try and justify OWS all you want. The fact remains that myself, and a fairly large percentage of Americans view it in another light. At this stage of the game, because of what we know or perceive about OWS, it is not going to change. We don't like it, we don't support and we never will. Period. All of these OWS threads do nothing more than reinforce what we believe about the movement.

At this stage, it is probably in the best interest of the OWS supporters on this board to just let sleeping dogs lie. Let spring roll around and see if OWS actually does what it says it does. Listen to the people and act accordingly. There are more people against OWS than there are for it. Listen to what we have said, let it sink in. Then regroup and formulate a plan that is palatable and relevant to the rest of us and you might, MIGHT get our support.

Wait so are you saying companies and big business outsourced jobs because of unions? Honest question: Do you think if we didn't have unions here that jobs wouldn't get outsourced? In any "free trade" agreement how would you expect the USA to compete with third world countries that provide slave labor, no environmental regulations and the ability to bribe those in power for access to their natural resources? As a businessman if you had the opportunity to open up a factory in some third world country and pay workers 10 cents an hour or open up a factory in a US city and pay workers minimum wage (7-10 dollars an hour) non unionized which would you chose?

Are people honestly calling for people in the USA to work under conditions that pay competing wages with third world countries for the sake of having companies increase their profit margins and produce goods here in the USA that they won't be able to purchase? Am I in the twilight zone or something? Since when did the Economy (capitalized because of it's importance) become the ultimate sayer? Is the Economy the new God and it's billionaires it's priests (money being the holy ghost or something), because from what I see people here certainly are worshipping them.

One thing I do agree with is the need to eliminate free trade agreements RIGHT AWAY and impose massive tarrifs. Lets start with NAFTA. Big Business has no concept of soveriegnty they are traitors and care for nothing aside from the profits that they make. If they had the ability to make 2 trillion dollars (random high number) by nuking 2/3 of the population they would. True psychopaths. Not to say I don't see our government in the same light because they are truly sharing the same brain.

reply to post by Chewingonmushrooms


I'm not saying it was the full reason, I was saying it contributed to it. Look, my dad retired from GM. I know what the unions did/did not do. When a guy gets caught sleeping and the company has it's hands so tied they can't fire him, then there is a real problem there. There are plenty of jobs around this country that do not utilize union labor. And yes, a lot of them pay quite handsomely with benefits. Unions had their purpose and their day. They are no longer relevant. We as a society know what is acceptable, and we have the capability of forcing change. If a company can only hire the bottom of the barrel because they pay poorly or treat workers poorly, they won't be in business for long. You want talent, you are going to have to pay for it. Business knows this. Stop all the damn red tape and permit nonsense and let businesses flourish.

I also said free trade was a mistake. Take away free trade, take away over paid union wages and you just might have a competitive US economy once again. We used to tax imports to level the playing field. It's time we did that again.

reply to post by haarvik


Then our whole concept of business model is extremely flawed and if not corrected will be the death of us all. This idea of Economy first everything else a footnote is illogical and very dangerous. And people wonder why the new generation is questioning our systems of governance and economic outlook (even questioning the idea of "economy" in the first place) and thank goodness that they are because if no body does we are screwed.

reply to post by Chewingonmushrooms


Exactly. It is flawed. Has been for nearly 30 years.
When I ran my contracting business, I paid top dollar for my employees. I wanted the best, and my business showed that I used and paid the best. I went from a startup to the second largest in my area in just 3 years. I offered benefits and high wages. I was double what other comparable businesses were paying. So the mentality that a union is needed for high paying wages with benefits is absolutely wrong. If it's one thing commerce has taught us it's that people will pay for quality. What's funny is even though I paid top dollar for employees, I was still one of the lowest cost contractors around. My volume of work made up for the lower prices. I call it the McDonald's of contracting. Lower margins and higher volume.

reply to post by haarvik


Then I can truly respect you. Wish there were more honest businessmen around like that and maybe unions wouldn't be needed. Unfortunately IMO we are past the point of fair business practices and fair representation (Unions). Both are greedy and both do not have their fellow men in their interests. I really like Ron Paul, and even though I seriously disagree with him on several fronts (markets regulating and checking themselves would be the major one) I would vote for him over a person like Obama any day of the week. I registered Republican just for I could vote for him in the primaries in 2007, and I'll probably do so again.

The path that we have been taking so far has led to ruin, why not give a different way a shot? From my point of view there are way more positives than negatives and he generally seems to speak from the heart.