Jesus is NOT a copy from Pagan religions! Those are lies! Do research and do not believe!

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by Grimpachi

Originally posted by WarminIndy
I think that we have reached the conclusion from the various responses about our faiths is that the religion of Jesus is not pagan, that there are indeed differences and those differences are vast. The only thing they could have in common on any superficial level is that each faith system is designed to take us toward a divine being.

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I would have to say that you are incorrect in your conclusion. There has been more than enough evidence provided that brings me to the conclusion that Jesus was a pagan ripoff. If the man even existed then he was just a man. My conclusion is that he brought the teachings from the eastern civilizations. The differences on the pagan stories and his are very similar. I am not surprised at all at your statement it is typical of most Christians to ignore anything that goes against their faith, it is after all what you are told to do by the church. Facts, science, and history generally speaking will not persuade a Christian to reevaluate their beliefs.

The only thing that I really have against Christianity is that it seems to be more about controling the masses than helping them and in many cases separating them from their money. There is a good message but unfortunately it has mostly been lost.

I can prove from sources that people did indeed view it as different. For instance, Conal Cearnach, who may be an ancestor of LunaKat, but is my ancestor because I am of the old family O'Mordha of Ireland.

Conal Cearnach, a hero of early Ireland, is supposed to have made a journey to Jerusalem, bringing back the faith to Conor Mac Nessa, the Ard Righ - "High King" (the king over all the kings of Ireland, sometimes styled "Imperator Scotorum - Emperor of the Irish") and others, inspiring several Irish to journey to Jerusalem to be baptized. It is fairly obvious, then, that the new religion must have been known of, though not perhaps known, in Ireland at an extremely early date.

Wakeman's Handbook of Irish Antiquities

The Early Celtic Church

And in the legends of Cuchalainn, it appears that the death of Jesus was reported to the legendary hero also known as the Dearg Doom and the Hound of Culainn. But I do understand what LunaKat is referring to, in that in local places, some Christians have incorporated pagan ideas to make them synchronous with each other. But that was those ministers, but not the pagans.

In the Celtic and Druidic views, Jesus was not a Druid and did not worship Jesus as such and did not attempt to reconcile Jesus with Druidism in any way. So the two faith systems are very different.

History of the Celts

I think they recognized the difference,but Ireland was a land of waves of immigration. Even most genealogists will agree that the Irish themselves have descended from Egyptians and Spanish, as well as Nordic invaders. Jesus could not have been a pagan rip-off, if those people then knew the religion of Jesus was different enough to evangelize with, including Conal Cearnach

His legend is in the Ulster Cycles, found now at Trinity University in Dublin. The Ulster Cycles is the history of Ireland.

BTW, there is a very good book called How the Irish Saved Civilization.

WarminIndy I have no doubts at all that Jesus would have been known to other people with other myths. And I do not doubt that they didn't view him as Pagan. But his story is the same as theirs. Take a little from this one, take a little from that one, change the names, give it a new location, preserve it in writing (destroy all other writings in the meantime). The Jesus story is a modern (to the time of Christ) retelling. Thats all it is a retelling.

To these people, the Pagans, which you already said was a negative word... Pagan was not negative. Pagan was most likely not even a word they used to describe themselves (someone can correct if I'm wrong). Jews and Christians called them Pagan. To them, they were just living their beliefs. For one thing when you're under attack by Christianity they didn't have the luxury of sitting down as we are today and hemming and hawing picking this and picking that out. We're the ones with this luxury. No one is chasing us threatening our families if they don't convert, raiding our homes or our places of worship. It is in no way the same. We are not under attack.

Yes Jesus probably was known widely. He traveled and he is said to have studied in other lands. What do you think he studied

reply to post by LunaKat


I think we can agree to disagree and still respect each other. This has been a very interesting thread and it is nice to be able to share ideas with you. I have always said that no matter what you claim to be, at least be able to justify your faith. I have a great-aunt on my dad's other side who was a Jehova's Witness. This woman did not come from a family of JWs, but converted to it because she found something in it. My grandmother, who was her sister, had leukemia in the days when there were no real treatments for cancer and she had blood transfusions all the time.

My grandmother died when I was 2 years-old. About 10 years ago, I went to visit this aunt and she said to me that it was God's will for my grandmother to die as she did because she "took the blood". My grandmother died from a broken neck in a terrible car crash. But the aunt waited until it was many years after to tell me this, and I did not argue with her, I just said good-bye and left. That aunt died a year later when I was living in another state and I did not get to go to her funeral. But is was disrespectful to the memory of my grandmother, who was her sister. I don't have any ill will toward her, she went out of this world with that in her. She will have to answer for that, but I am sure in her faith system she felt justified in doing so.

I believe in accountability for myself first and know that whatever I say or do, I will have to answer for. That is why I try to be respectful toward all people.

I remember one time when I was working at a place and we had gotten the news that one of our supervisors mother was just in an accident and was in the hospital on life support. All of us who were Christian believers joined hands and began to pray for this person that we did not know, and to the side of us was a little Hindu woman, who began to cry. She asked us if she could pray also and we said yes, just jump in and pray. She knew we were praying to Jesus but felt something enough to want to partake. That is what we have to remember, when we do things with a good heart and no evil motives, that is what people respond to. I hope I have displayed that here.

I am not religious in any way at all....

but

the 'Jesus is just a copied myth' IS false.

How?

Because the gods, angels, and goddesses in the bible are real entities. Magical, flying around with wings, granting wishes?? NO

They were extraterrestrial beings. Did they not descend from the heavens? Did they not display advanced technology?

They did. And all the world's civilizations could not have all been 'delusional' about the same thing.

Christians (and other religious people) refuse to believe this because it takes the magic out of their 'god'. No one is acting on their behalf, and they must responsible for themselves.

Atheists and most scientists refuse to accept this because it makes them less advanced than other species; they have a complex they the Earth-Human is the most advanced, most intelligent, and most superior of all things known in the universe, and they are intimidated by the Ancient Alien Theory.

Frankly, this is a mute point.

It doesn't matter whether 50 duplicates of the fictitious "Jesus" were made, it would be like saying "SANTA IS NOT the same Santa depicted in earlier pagan society.

Religion was created to give "man" something to fear, more than death it's self. The quality of life was so low and so short, people did not value life like they do now.

They needed to create this perfect "imagined" place of eternal rest. One for people who follow the rules, and one for those that don't.

Religion was created so man would have a "higher power" to fall back on, or blame for inconsistencies in life.
"The lord has blessed us with rain" ----- NO, a cloud filled up with h2o and could not hold it any longer.

Last and not least, (the reason religion is still popular) is ........ Religion was created to help people deal with death and dying. Some people can not handle the idea of "lights out" .. Some people can't deal with watching loved ones pass, without thinking they have "gone to a better place" or "I will see you again"

Religion is the only thing on this planet, that is "faith" based. Not one ounce of proof, other than a book. A book that was written by man, to deceive man.

There ARE previous versions of Christianity and Jesus. THAT IS A FACT! You can twist the facts, but, the fact remains, there are writings dating back BEFORE Jesus, that are STRIKINGLY similar. Story line, and names are too close to be called "not related"

To sit here and deny this is no different than a person just saying " I believe and nothing you say can change my mind"

God DOES NOT exist! Religion is the single, largest cause of violence on this planet. The only way we will EVER even come close to world peace, is a form of evolution. Weak minded people will have to put down their crutch (religion) and answer to themselves for the choices and results they get. Just my 2 cents.

reply to post by MobiusUnleashed


And what I'm saying is that there are 'previous' versions of Jesus because they were different entities all together....extraterrestrials.....more than one.

WarminIndy, just to let you know real quick cause I have some stuff to do with my critters here for a bit...I did see your other posts. And thats a good tune btw I like that one too.

Real quick... you know when I read the Bible I also got the idea that Jesus came for the Jews. I know that later he included the "Gentiles" but I always picked up that he gradually warmed up to that idea. He kept stating he was for the Jews... and there is even an instance in the Bible (I can get to it after my pets) where he called a woman a dog. I've seen the commentary on it and I don't buy that he used it as a nick name of fond little pet name..he called her a dog cause she was a Gentile. He gradually accepted a wider role... I do think originally it was meant just for the Jews.

But I will be back in a bit to talk with you about some of the other things you wrote. See ya in a bit

Originally posted by MobiusUnleashed
God DOES NOT exist!

A bold statement there ... coming from someone who just a few lines above that talks about "religion not having an ounce of proof" and all ...

reply to post by Revolution9

He was born in a cave. They did not have barns as such then. The shepherds used caves back then.

It says he was born in a stable... behind the inns where they kept animals .

Those were caves..used as stables.

It seems insignificant to argue barn..stable..cave.. when what really matters is His life.. and why he died.

reply to post by sHuRuLuNi


Maybe I should be clear. The god depicted in the bible, does not exist.

Is there something or someone out there, that when shown his power and knowledge, we would claim him to be "a god" ... mehhhhh maybe..

But "god" as depicted in the bible, is nothing more than a morally flawed fantasy.

Originally posted by LunaKat
WarminIndy, just to let you know real quick cause I have some stuff to do with my critters here for a bit...I did see your other posts. And thats a good tune btw

I like that one too.

Real quick... you know when I read the Bible I also got the idea that Jesus came for the Jews. I know that later he included the "Gentiles" but I always picked up that he gradually warmed up to that idea. He kept stating he was for the Jews... and there is even an instance in the Bible (I can get to it after my pets) where he called a woman a dog. I've seen the commentary on it and I don't buy that he used it as a nick name of fond little pet name..he called her a dog cause she was a Gentile. He gradually accepted a wider role... I do think originally it was meant just for the Jews.

But I will be back in a bit to talk with you about some of the other things you wrote. See ya in a bit

Have fun with your critters. I have one of my own and for a little guy he sure is demanding. I just swept up after he chewed some papers. I have someone coming to my home in a little while so I will be offline also.

I always wondered why He called her a dog and it was not because she was a Gentile, because Jesus often remarked how Gentiles had more faith. For me, it was found in His reply to her, that the dogs return to the vomit. We also today think of people the same way, we associate them with animals. Apparently, there was something to her liftestyle that was destructive and caused her daughter harm. He was telling her that even though He could heal her daughter, if the woman returns to back to whatever was destructive, it would continually harm the girl. The woman said her daughter was possessed and yet did not present the girl to Jesus. Maybe the girl simply had behavior issues and it was easier and more convenient to say she was possessed, which is exactly what we hear people saying today.

Jesus was not telling her she was a dog because she was not Jewish, but rather, she was doing something destructive and would intend on returning to it. I don't know, maybe she had a 1st Century crack addiction ( that is figuratively speaking, but maybe she was addicted to something) and lived in a type of crack house with harmful people coming and going all the time.

Human nature does not change and neither does actions and everything in the Bible we should be able to apply it to the society and time in which we live. The woman pleaded for the girl to be healed, and said that even dogs eat the crumbs that fall from the master's table. Why was she under the table? Was she begging? She could have said she was not a dog, but maybe felt herself in that position. And in the whole Bible, she was the only one Jesus called a dog, not because she was one, but her actions were like that. She returned to the vile stuff.

We do it today, we say certain people are dogs, pigs, snakes and everything we can think of. I am sure people would think it was because she was not Jewish, because Jesus also healed a woman who was Syro-Phonecian without calling her a name. Even the Roman Centurion was not called a name for not being Jewish. So to me, it was her lifestyle choices that were harmful and she returned to it all the time. The girl had behavior problems because of the environment.

Looking over recent posts...

About aliens... I have no idea. I haven't looked into that and it kind of stretches our topic to get into it a lot but it would make a good topic in another thread.

Criticisms of religion being based on fear of dying and then comforting people with the idea of Heaven... people come to religions for a variety of reasons and that is a valid one of them. Not gonna say that isn't true. We all follow things --not just religious things-- based on need. If you don't need it, you don't need it. If you're not curious what happens when you die, you're not curious. If you don't feel or intuit that there is anything beyond ourselves..you don't intuit that there is a Divine Being, well then you don't. Religion can be a crutch but so can anything. We do need to be responsible for our actions and the way we treat our world whether we are religious, spiritual or not.

Originally posted by WarminIndy
reply to post by LunaKat

 

I think we can agree to disagree and still respect each other. This has been a very interesting thread and it is nice to be able to share ideas with you. I have always said that no matter what you claim to be, at least be able to justify your faith. I have a great-aunt on my dad's other side who was a Jehova's Witness. This woman did not come from a family of JWs, but converted to it because she found something in it. My grandmother, who was her sister, had leukemia in the days when there were no real treatments for cancer and she had blood transfusions all the time.

My grandmother died when I was 2 years-old. About 10 years ago, I went to visit this aunt and she said to me that it was God's will for my grandmother to die as she did because she "took the blood". My grandmother died from a broken neck in a terrible car crash. But the aunt waited until it was many years after to tell me this, and I did not argue with her, I just said good-bye and left. That aunt died a year later when I was living in another state and I did not get to go to her funeral. But is was disrespectful to the memory of my grandmother, who was her sister. I don't have any ill will toward her, she went out of this world with that in her. She will have to answer for that, but I am sure in her faith system she felt justified in doing so.

I believe in accountability for myself first and know that whatever I say or do, I will have to answer for. That is why I try to be respectful toward all people.

I remember one time when I was working at a place and we had gotten the news that one of our supervisors mother was just in an accident and was in the hospital on life support. All of us who were Christian believers joined hands and began to pray for this person that we did not know, and to the side of us was a little Hindu woman, who began to cry. She asked us if she could pray also and we said yes, just jump in and pray. She knew we were praying to Jesus but felt something enough to want to partake. That is what we have to remember, when we do things with a good heart and no evil motives, that is what people respond to. I hope I have displayed that here.

WarminIndy a big YES most definitely we can agree to disagree. I like reading your posts because I can see all the thought that went into them and can feel that your heart is good. So yeah, always, we might not come from same religion or believe same things but its good to read and its good to know you

Thats a sad story about your Aunt and Grandmother. "Took the blood" is blood transfusions? Was that in a time when they weren't able to screen out all the diseases they can now? Is that what your Aunt was afraid of? Or was it religious based? I know among some of the elderly people that is still a fear. They don't know the technology that won't pass on the diseases and there is something ...want to say primal fear of blood. We still do pass out at the sight of it, lol. Blood is one of those things that makes people squeamish. I think its partly a remnant of our early survival instinct. But religion added some nasty layers to it. Just sorry that happened in your family.

What you wrote about the prayers at work and being inclusive is really when faith (all faith) reflects the highest good. That is a good example for us all. Thank you for sharing that

Had another thought about the prayer circle that included the Hindu woman. Isn't it strange how much stuff we forget? When our world is faced with a huge disaster....like a tsunami or the World Trade Center where they was a lot of news coverage... one of the first things people everywhere did if they were spiritual was pray. No one cared too much what religion the person next to them was who was praying too. People held hands with people of other faiths, people shed tears with people of other faiths. Why do we forget this all the time? Why does it take a natural disaster for us to remember that it really doesn't matter? Why can't we ever hold onto that?

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Have fun with your critters. I have one of my own and for a little guy he sure is demanding. I just swept up after he chewed some papers. I have someone coming to my home in a little while so I will be offline also.

I always wondered why He called her a dog and it was not because she was a Gentile, because Jesus often remarked how Gentiles had more faith. For me, it was found in His reply to her, that the dogs return to the vomit. We also today think of people the same way, we associate them with animals. Apparently, there was something to her liftestyle that was destructive and caused her daughter harm. He was telling her that even though He could heal her daughter, if the woman returns to back to whatever was destructive, it would continually harm the girl. The woman said her daughter was possessed and yet did not present the girl to Jesus. Maybe the girl simply had behavior issues and it was easier and more convenient to say she was possessed, which is exactly what we hear people saying today.

Jesus was not telling her she was a dog because she was not Jewish, but rather, she was doing something destructive and would intend on returning to it. I don't know, maybe she had a 1st Century crack addiction ( that is figuratively speaking, but maybe she was addicted to something) and lived in a type of crack house with harmful people coming and going all the time.

Human nature does not change and neither does actions and everything in the Bible we should be able to apply it to the society and time in which we live. The woman pleaded for the girl to be healed, and said that even dogs eat the crumbs that fall from the master's table. Why was she under the table? Was she begging? She could have said she was not a dog, but maybe felt herself in that position. And in the whole Bible, she was the only one Jesus called a dog, not because she was one, but her actions were like that. She returned to the vile stuff.

We do it today, we say certain people are dogs, pigs, snakes and everything we can think of. I am sure people would think it was because she was not Jewish, because Jesus also healed a woman who was Syro-Phonecian without calling her a name. Even the Roman Centurion was not called a name for not being Jewish. So to me, it was her lifestyle choices that were harmful and she returned to it all the time. The girl had behavior problems because of the environment.

WarminIndy, you get a little puppy? You said he was chewing up papers, lol

Ok, I was looking on the Internet at various versions of Matthew 15:22-28 --the story where Jesus called the woman a dog. I can't find one that says anything about vomit (???) First, eeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwww, hahahaha. But what is that from about the vomit?

Here is what I did find:

Matthew 15:22-28 NASB
22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.” 23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting [a]at us.” 24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” 26 And He answered and said, “It is not [c]good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27 But she said, “Yes, Lord; [d]but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” 28 Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed [e]at once.

Let me say off the bat, to me Jesus was sooooo rude.

If I was that woman I would have walked away from him. Here is a mother desperate to help her daughter. She
sees Jesus but Jesus and his disciples don't want to help her. His grounds are that he was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel (earlier I was saying he didn't seem to warm up to including people other than the Jews till later). Right at this moment I get a hoity toity picture of Jesus and his disciples in my mind. They can't be bothered with her.

Then the woman bows down to him (which I never would have done) and begs him to help her.

After first ignoring her Jesus moves on to insulting her saying its not good to take the childrens bread and throw it to the dogs. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (If he didn't come to heal people what the heck and why so insulting???)

She exhibits wisdom in how to handle his superior attitude She humbles herself to him knowing he wants that and he then agrees to help her.

Paaaaardon me... I would have walked away long before that and told everyone he was insufferable!

He's rude to women especially. Thought healing was his specialty? Its not surprising the woman would ask it. And aren't demons supposed to be his thing? That should of encouraged him to help immediately. He didn't want to bother.

reply to post by LunaKat


Jesus knew scripture and used it at every moment.

Proverbs 26:11

As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

2 Peter 2:22

But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

There is no other woman that Jesus called a dog, and it was not because she was not Jewish. The Bible, when read correctly, does indeed make an equality of men and women.

Galatians 3:28: 'There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

There is neither male or female because we are all one in Christ. This is something that was taught across the early Christian church. After a while, some people hijacked the teachings to place women in a lower position. He even venerated Mary who anointed His feet, and this Mary was a prostitute. This is not Mary Magdalene the Catholics claim, that was an unfounded rumor.

He wanted Mary to be honored, but this Mary is the sister of Lazarus.

13Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

Luke 7

35But wisdom is justified of all her children. 36And one of the Pharisees desired him that he would eat with him. And he went into the Pharisee's house, and sat down to meat. 37And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment, 38And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment. 39Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

John 11

1Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha. 2(It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.) 3Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick. 4When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby. 5Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.

This was not Mary Magdalene, but this Mary was the sister of Lazarus and Jesus loved all three of them. She was termed a sinner, but to what sin she committed is not mentioned, and when the Pharisees made an issue of it, Jesus defended her. Whatever she felt to do for Him was appreciated by Him and He stated that wherever the Gospel is preached, there should be a memorial to her.

And why He is not for the Jews only
John 11

48If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. 49And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; 52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Caiaphus was the high priest but knew enough of the Bible to recognize that Jesus should die, not only for Israel but people everywhere. And it says children of God, not just sons. In fact the Bible also says that God would pour out of His spirit on all flesh and the sons and daughters would prophecy.

I think people have twisted some things to place women in a lower position when God Himself had not done that.

reply to post by LunaKat


my dog is not a puppy, he is a year old but still loves to chew paper,especially Christmas cards and invitations

His name was Fluffy when I bought him at the animal shelter and the older ladies in my apartment building renamed him Elvis because he is black, and they all love Elvis. He responds to Elvis so I just left his name as that, but I just usually call him puppy when I am talking to him.

But Elvis is off topic and I will probably get an off topic warning...

Originally posted by LunaKat
Had another thought about the prayer circle that included the Hindu woman. Isn't it strange how much stuff we forget? When our world is faced with a huge disaster....like a tsunami or the World Trade Center where they was a lot of news coverage... one of the first things people everywhere did if they were spiritual was pray. No one cared too much what religion the person next to them was who was praying too. People held hands with people of other faiths, people shed tears with people of other faiths. Why do we forget this all the time? Why does it take a natural disaster for us to remember that it really doesn't matter? Why can't we ever hold onto that?

Love is love and should be shown all the time. It's too bad though that people think love is only something they should receive but not give. Respect is not mutual anymore in the world we live in, we respect only when we think we are going to get something for it.

Originally posted by WarminIndy
reply to post by LunaKat

 

Jesus knew scripture and used it at every moment.

Proverbs 26:11

As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

2 Peter 2:22

But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

I'm gonna have to split your post up. I'm not real good with the quoting function on here and commenting inbetween. So this first. So you automatically linked these two verses to what Jesus was saying to her? Wow.. I wouldn't. Even after seeing them I don't link them to that. Its one thing to note a process that animals may or may not do (don't recall our dachshund ever doing that) and to call a human being such a vile thing. He didn't call the men that did he?

Originally posted by WarminIndy
reply to post by LunaKat

 

There is no other woman that Jesus called a dog, and it was not because she was not Jewish. The Bible, when read correctly, does indeed make an equality of men and women.

Galatians 3:28: 'There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

There is neither male or female because we are all one in Christ. This is something that was taught across the early Christian church.

Says the one hand. On the other hand the New Testament says a woman should not speak in church and should ask questions only of her husband. Equality? No. There obviously is male and female. This is a mans religion. It is no religion for a woman.

reply to post by LunaKat


Yes, took the blood means a transfusion. It was what was keeping my grandmother alive then and even today JWs will not take blood transfusions because it is a religious taboo for them.

As I was looking into this, it seems that now, they do accept blood transfusions. JWs and Blood Transfusions

It seems they are very divided on this subject now, but it does help them when they need it.