The time for peaceful resistance is up

In your opinion, how would you say we could impose this change? Senators and Congressman need not be lifelong politicians, 2 terms and that's a wrap. The letter "f" a politician... elected citizen is what we'd call it. No incentives. No lobbyists. The will of the people actually being dictated by true elected citizens. But how, tell me how.

Originally posted by tangonine

Originally posted by Laokin

Originally posted by britelite1971
reply to post by bumpufirst

 

Why do the same congressmen and senators stay in office for many many terms? Why aren't we voting them out? Why do we continually vote for the rich and powerful? I get your point. Yes, our government is completely corrupt and in bed with the corrupt banks and corrporations. I agree completely! It is time to change the system but it's not time to take up arms and other weapons and hurt innocent bystanders in the process!

I agree with you -- wholeheartedly. It's just, so many people say this and offer no viable solution to the problem. Myself included.

Do I think OWS or any kind of peaceful protest is going to make a difference at this point? No, I don't. Do I think violence WOULD make a difference, yes I do. Do I think that difference would be better or worse? No way to tell, however -- that's an avenue that should never be traveled until all other avenues have been exhausted or pursued.

So, the question is -- what other options are there? Ya know, if we don't vote, some people will still vote, and the system is setup to elect the winner in the vote. (Provided voting even counts at all.) Peaceful protests are turning violent at the hands of the states, not the protesters.

The pool of electable candidates is selected not by the people, but by the GOP. Therefore, we can't even realistically put someone viable in office if we tried, short of a miracle event in which the biggest cooperation of all of mankind writes in a unanimous ballot.

It's currently by all known angles to me, a real rock and a hard place.

It is a tough call. Our politicians are all corrupt. They're making millions by doing... NOTHING. They just wake up, go to work, and let people tell them how important they are.

Having said that, our constitution is the best governmental framework in the history of mankind. So we cannot abandon it.

How do we, as responsible citizens, solve this problem of corruption? Without violence? I'm with you: I don't know. But what I do know is that the violence option is not acceptable and would never lead to an end we want. It would manifest in tyranny.

There needs to be a change. The way our senators and representatives and presidents behave is unacceptable. We have to bring the hammer, but the way in which we do that is so very important.

I do agree, violence would lead to tyranny. I do notice, that without violence, we are on the path to tyranny already. I do know in order to be free, you must overcome tyranny. The only way tyranny has ever been overcome in the history of the earth is by violence.

So yes. Violence will accelerate the problem, but if it continues to be violent at the extreme, and infrastructure was being diminished, there would be an inevitable tipping point.

Soldiers cannot shoot their own. American soldiers will not stand by whilst Canadian forces do the leg work.

I DO again, agree that violence is not the most desired path, but it's tried and true. It works, it gets results.

What happens if we stand by idly and do nothing about the tyranny that is already creeping. When it blows up into full scale tyranny should it then turn to violence? If yes, you realize you would be making the fight even harder for the resistance.

It's definitely an extremely complicated problem. We need to find a solution -- and if the only viable solution does turn out to be violence, we will have to be violent or suffer tyranny of evil men. The constitution is fantastic, but the constitution was to protect against this very problem. Lest not forget, America was built of revolution, resistance to tyranny. We became what we are through violence, which was a last ditch effort.

I hope we've progressed as a whole, however -- if we didn't, wouldn't it be foolish to ignore history? Wouldn't it be the exact opposite of what the constitution really stands for?

+++ This conversation is great, by the way.

And yes, the way we bring the hammer will be the most important decision made of the coming century. I hope and wish it's in a non violent manner, however -- it if turns out to be violence, we should all be prepared.

We should also make a thread on the topic of "Alternatives to Violence" or something like this. This is a topic of it's own that is very important to this particular thread and argument as well. We need to use this collective we've been blessed with to find the solution or at the very least, attempt pursuit of the solution.

Let me ask you this question.

What do you do to maintain your gains after you have this "non-peaceful" resistance?

This issue with America is not the bankers or the politicians, it is the people that keep voting in the politicians that keep allowing themselves to be bought by the bankers and corporate donors.

Originally posted by Laokin

Originally posted by tangonine

Originally posted by Laokin

Originally posted by britelite1971
reply to post by bumpufirst

 

Why do the same congressmen and senators stay in office for many many terms? Why aren't we voting them out? Why do we continually vote for the rich and powerful? I get your point. Yes, our government is completely corrupt and in bed with the corrupt banks and corrporations. I agree completely! It is time to change the system but it's not time to take up arms and other weapons and hurt innocent bystanders in the process!

I agree with you -- wholeheartedly. It's just, so many people say this and offer no viable solution to the problem. Myself included.

Do I think OWS or any kind of peaceful protest is going to make a difference at this point? No, I don't. Do I think violence WOULD make a difference, yes I do. Do I think that difference would be better or worse? No way to tell, however -- that's an avenue that should never be traveled until all other avenues have been exhausted or pursued.

So, the question is -- what other options are there? Ya know, if we don't vote, some people will still vote, and the system is setup to elect the winner in the vote. (Provided voting even counts at all.) Peaceful protests are turning violent at the hands of the states, not the protesters.

The pool of electable candidates is selected not by the people, but by the GOP. Therefore, we can't even realistically put someone viable in office if we tried, short of a miracle event in which the biggest cooperation of all of mankind writes in a unanimous ballot.

It's currently by all known angles to me, a real rock and a hard place.

It is a tough call. Our politicians are all corrupt. They're making millions by doing... NOTHING. They just wake up, go to work, and let people tell them how important they are.

Having said that, our constitution is the best governmental framework in the history of mankind. So we cannot abandon it.

How do we, as responsible citizens, solve this problem of corruption? Without violence? I'm with you: I don't know. But what I do know is that the violence option is not acceptable and would never lead to an end we want. It would manifest in tyranny.

There needs to be a change. The way our senators and representatives and presidents behave is unacceptable. We have to bring the hammer, but the way in which we do that is so very important.

I do agree, violence would lead to tyranny. I do notice, that without violence, we are on the path to tyranny already. I do know in order to be free, you must overcome tyranny. The only way tyranny has ever been overcome in the history of the earth is by violence.

So yes. Violence will accelerate the problem, but if it continues to be violent at the extreme, and infrastructure was being diminished, there would be an inevitable tipping point.

Soldiers cannot shoot their own. American soldiers will not stand by whilst Canadian forces do the leg work.

I DO again, agree that violence is not the most desired path, but it's tried and true. It works, it gets results.

What happens if we stand by idly and do nothing about the tyranny that is already creeping. When it blows up into full scale tyranny should it then turn to violence? If yes, you realize you would be making the fight even harder for the resistance.

It's definitely an extremely complicated problem. We need to find a solution -- and if the only viable solution does turn out to be violence, we will have to be violent or suffer tyranny of evil men. The constitution is fantastic, but the constitution was to protect against this very problem. Lest not forget, America was built of revolution, resistance to tyranny. We became what we are through violence, which was a last ditch effort.

I hope we've progressed as a whole, however -- if we didn't, wouldn't it be foolish to ignore history? Wouldn't it be the exact opposite of what the constitution really stands for?

+++ This conversation is great, by the way.

edit on 20-11-2011 by Laokin because: (no reason given)

It is THE conversation this nation needs.

The answer is you don't stand by idly. You get on the phone, you e-mail your representatives and senators. you attend town hall meeting, and you bring the hate. Do NOT let them get away with it. You vote, you can organize, and you can build a block that says: "NO"

We have to operate within the framework of our republic, or we're lost. A pile of hippie communists and anarchists in OWS does nothing but make it more difficult, that's why I don't support them. They missed. In a giant way. All they did was make it more difficult for the citizenry. Hippies. I hate them.

Originally posted by tangonine
It is THE conversation this nation needs.

The answer is you don't stand by idly. You get on the phone, you e-mail your representatives and senators. you attend town hall meeting, and you bring the hate. Do NOT let them get away with it. You vote, you can organize, and you can build a block that says: "NO"

We have to operate within the framework of our republic, or we're lost. A pile of hippie communists and anarchists in OWS does nothing but make it more difficult, that's why I don't support them. They missed. In a giant way. All they did was make it more difficult for the citizenry. Hippies. I hate them.

A compendium needs to be made. Organization is central in any movement. The OWS could be the catalyst for people to be open to the idea of making a difference in a different way(They did set a precedent I've known people who agree there is problems and only agree because they disagree with how OWS is trying to fix them.) However, most people don't have a clue what they can do that is REALISTIC that will make a difference.

People suggesting we boycott apple doesn't help, it's an unrealistic goal. The technology is so useful, that it's extremely hard to ignore on a principle value. They need to be realistic ideas that will make a difference with the power of numbers.

There needs to be a way to see the feedback, a metric to follow. A source must be created and virally advertised to bring attention to the things people can do to actually make a change.

ATS is a gift. ATS should start a movement of it's own. They should get the street teams to push it. We should do this the right way and do our part in enabling others to do things the right way as well.

Change comes with unified community. We have one right here.

That's my first idea, or avenue that could be pursued to avoid the violence.

Other people should play, and come up with ideas, or help flesh out ideas more clearly so we can actually achieve a noticeable difference on the macro scale.

Originally posted by Laokin

Originally posted by tangonine
It is THE conversation this nation needs.

The answer is you don't stand by idly. You get on the phone, you e-mail your representatives and senators. you attend town hall meeting, and you bring the hate. Do NOT let them get away with it. You vote, you can organize, and you can build a block that says: "NO"

We have to operate within the framework of our republic, or we're lost. A pile of hippie communists and anarchists in OWS does nothing but make it more difficult, that's why I don't support them. They missed. In a giant way. All they did was make it more difficult for the citizenry. Hippies. I hate them.

A compendium needs to be made. Organization is central in any movement. The OWS could be the catalyst for people to be open to the idea of making a difference in a different way(They did set a precedent I've known people who agree there is problems and only agree because they disagree with how OWS is trying to fix them.) However, most people don't have a clue what they can do that is REALISTIC that will make a difference.

People suggesting we boycott apple doesn't help, it's an unrealistic goal. The technology is so useful, that it's extremely hard to ignore on a principle value. They need to be realistic ideas that will make a difference with the power of numbers.

There needs to be a way to see the feedback, a metric to follow. A source must be created and virally advertised to bring attention to the things people can do to actually make a change.

ATS is a gift. ATS should start a movement of it's own. They should get the street teams to push it. We should do this the right way and do our part in enabling others to do things the right way as well.

Change comes with unified community. We have one right here.

That's my first idea, or avenue that could be pursued to avoid the violence.

Other people should play, and come up with ideas, or help flesh out ideas more clearly so we can actually achieve a noticeable difference on the macro scale.

edit on 20-11-2011 by Laokin because: (no reason given)

get on the phone to your senators and representative. Leave 10 voicemails a day. Be "that person" that won't go away.

Originally posted by Timing
Let me ask you this question.

What do you do to maintain your gains after you have this "non-peaceful" resistance?

This issue with America is not the bankers or the politicians, it is the people that keep voting in the politicians that keep allowing themselves to be bought by the bankers and corporate donors.

I absolutely agree. It is time to realize that "universal suffrage" is a failed concept. The right to vote should be "earned" through service. Did you ever read Heinlein's "Starship troopers"? Their government only allowed full citizenship and the right to vote to those who had shown the ability to think beyond themselves. In order to become a "citizen" you had to serve in the military. I don't think that is the "correct" answer in itself, but certainly we need voters who think about more than what they can get from their fellow citizens.

Originally posted by DarthMuerte

Originally posted by Timing
Let me ask you this question.

What do you do to maintain your gains after you have this "non-peaceful" resistance?

This issue with America is not the bankers or the politicians, it is the people that keep voting in the politicians that keep allowing themselves to be bought by the bankers and corporate donors.

I absolutely agree. It is time to realize that "universal suffrage" is a failed concept. The right to vote should be "earned" through service. Did you ever read Heinlein's "Starship troopers"? Their government only allowed full citizenship and the right to vote to those who had shown the ability to think beyond themselves. In order to become a "citizen" you had to serve in the military. I don't think that is the "correct" answer in itself, but certainly we need voters who think about more than what they can get from their fellow citizens.

This is an admirable notion, however, I'm not entirely sure how ethical it is. I think the better solution is not gating the voters, but gating the electables. If none of the choices people can vote for contain players of that mindset, the greedy voter makes no difference to the sum of the parts.

You also don't restrict any freedoms this way. Ideally, none of the candidates should be a negative to have in office, they should all bring equal positives to society in variable ways.

Voting for any given congressman or senator for what? For that person to simply be bought off. Please understand we are under attack, meaning we are at war, against a few powerful elite. Fine, you call your senator or congressman, so freaking what. The core issues they want will still get passed.

Do you folks not understand this is not "vote your next politician in". This is the time for a true revolution. Defend your country from those that harm us, I beg you. Stand up fight for what you believe, and future generations. One spark will ignite an explosion. There are around 280 million (probably more) firearms in the United States. Not to mention other means other than firearms. In a fictional scenario, one would think this would have an affect. Our forefathers were smart enough to give us the right, they knew of these bankers. Cause a ripple in the universe. Make a difference. Good always beats evil.

Originally posted by Hiasyouwant
Voting for any given congressman or senator for what? For that person to simply be bought off. Please understand we are under attack, meaning we are at war, against a few powerful elite. Fine, you call your senator or congressman, so freaking what. The core issues they want will still get passed.

Do you folks not understand this is not "vote your next politician in". This is the time for a true revolution. Defend your country from those that harm us, I beg you. Stand up fight for what you believe, and future generations. One spark will ignite an explosion. There are around 280 million (probably more) firearms in the United States. Not to mention other means other than firearms. In a fictional scenario, one would think this would have an affect. Our forefathers were smart enough to give us the right, they knew of these bankers. Cause a ripple in the universe. Make a difference. Good always beats evil.

I agree with the sentiment, however -- I'm not quite sure all other avenues have closed. If the senators didn't have phones because they were ringing off the hook 24/7 indefinitely from an insurmountable amount of numbers -- that might make a difference.

It's sort of a hey look scenario... do you think the elite want us to bang with them? I'm in agreement with you when you say we'd likely win. You don't think the elite would know this too and try to avert it?

They might have to give. It's at least a huge warning that violence is about to happen if they stay the course. A nice stern warning is sometimes enough to avert a drastic scenario.

Almost always, when the one being attacked knows he's likely to lose.

reply to post by Laokin


Very intuitive point. But I'm all for other avenues, just.. what are they? Draw them a pretty picture? In numbers we'd win, our military is not going to slaughter its own people. If we came in huge numbers, our country would be ours, it'd be free, the statue of liberty would again have meaning.

Senators could give a gawd darn about our phone calls and only what which lobbyist are paying or have the most influence. The whole system has gone to manure by the elitists crapping all over it. It's time to take it back, it's ours anyway. Violence isn't violence if you were attacked first- its self defense. Which is legal.

You say they might have to give, give what? No 5$ fee from BOA? No my friend. We have to take our country back- and the world will follow. We'd live in peace and harmony- the whole world. The awareness of your average joe is expanding everyday. Not just about current events but even spiritually. It is our duty, as the human race, to defend our planet from those who harm it. It's that simple.

Originally posted by Hiasyouwant
Voting for any given congressman or senator for what? For that person to simply be bought off. Please understand we are under attack, meaning we are at war, against a few powerful elite. Fine, you call your senator or congressman, so freaking what. The core issues they want will still get passed.

Do you folks not understand this is not "vote your next politician in". This is the time for a true revolution. Defend your country from those that harm us, I beg you. Stand up fight for what you believe, and future generations. One spark will ignite an explosion. There are around 280 million (probably more) firearms in the United States. Not to mention other means other than firearms. In a fictional scenario, one would think this would have an affect. Our forefathers were smart enough to give us the right, they knew of these bankers. Cause a ripple in the universe. Make a difference. Good always beats evil.

I agree with you, but violent overthrow of the government is NOT the way to go. Imagine if that would happen? It would place our constitution (the best governing document in recorded history) at risk. And it would set a dire precedent.

Imagine this: Every constituent calls or e-mails their representative and senators Every Day!. Build the pressure! Make them hear you. Under our government, YOU are in control so ffs stop ceding it to them! Act! Be the annoying person that can't be ignored!

You're a citizen, you pay taxes, so you have a right to demand. So: DEMAND!

I think it's funnier that these little idealists think things can be solved peacefully.

If they went violent, it wouldn't have the same mass appeal the movement has now.

That way, it can turn violent in a moment.

More man power.

Originally posted by Hiasyouwant
In your opinion, how would you say we could impose this change? Senators and Congressman need not be lifelong politicians, 2 terms and that's a wrap. The letter "f" a politician... elected citizen is what we'd call it. No incentives. No lobbyists. The will of the people actually being dictated by true elected citizens. But how, tell me how.

edit on 20-11-2011 by Hiasyouwant because: (no reason given)

1) term limits

2) No political contributions from outside sources. Fixed funds from your party (capped, and federally regulated) and that's it.

Tell me that sht wouldn't end this crap, like NOW.

Our elected officials can NOT continue to get funds from private organizations. THIS is what the problem is. Want to occupy wall street? Occupy DC and stop being a dumba$$.

Cut off private funding for elections. Period. Now.

If everyone who actually wanted to have our gov't ammended and fix all the corruption, there's only one way to get the schmucks to take you seriously. Anyone and everyone involved should just stop paying their taxes, systematically. This will get their attention.

Then we can sit down civilly and discuss the ammendments to the entire system. After all without the working class, there's absolutely NO WORLD. We are the gears of the machine. It's our sweat and blood that oils it and it's our unwilling contribution through illegal taxation that allows the scum to do what they want.

STOP SUPPORTING TERRORISM...........................

...................................................STOP PAYING YOUR TAXES......................................

Originally posted by Revealation
If everyone who actually wanted to have our gov't ammended and fix all the corruption, there's only one way to get the schmucks to take you seriously. Anyone and everyone involved should just stop paying their taxes, systematically. This will get their attention.

Then we can sit down civilly and discuss the ammendments to the entire system. After all without the working class, there's absolutely NO WORLD. We are the gears of the machine. It's our sweat and blood that oils it and it's our unwilling contribution through illegal taxation that allows the scum to do what they want.

STOP SUPPORTING TERRORISM...........................

...................................................STOP PAYING YOUR TAXES......................................

I would take it a step further.

Turn in your drivers license and drive anyway. They can't arrest everyone.

Turn in your birth certificates, identities, money, and all else that the beast has given you for your servitude.

You can't bite the hand that feeds you.

Stop being fed.

Don't you know that you are free?

See the plan.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by IAMIAM


That is exactly what everyone should do, but unfortunetly to many people like the sound of their own name and would most likely tell you to go jump off a cliff

If Chinese soldiers were prancing around your neighborhood everyone would be up in arms.

Are we not under invasion except in a different form?

Ever since 1913 we've been slaves to the bankers. (That's when the federal reserve was enacted). Foreign bankers who have been attacking us, pillaging our working class, and simply raping us while we lie helpless. Who said we had to lie helpless, instead of take a real stand? If the time isn't now, I don't know when it would be. I honestly believe any longer we wait would be a mistake on our part. If they won't give our country back, (which they will not, cannot and will laugh in your face before they do) would not you be willing to fight for your country, for freedom and liberty? For if not yourself, the sake of future generations. I didn't choose this fight, they did. We will forever be known as the generation of cowards if in mass, we do not stand up and fight against those that seek to harm us, have harmed us, and will continue to harm us. The time is now, not tomorrow, not when your children grow up and have to shovel more manure than we do. The time is now.

reply to post by IAMIAM


Awesom brother. That's what I'm talking about. That is the only way to peacefully protest. Now the issue is getting everyone to get the balls to take that step. I have no problems with it. After all it's nothing more than their way/system of controlling us.

I like it.

Just imagine, in a fictional reality, the possibilities if the people were to rise up in arms. Create a new system of moolah. Have you ever noticed every country the united states ever messes with doesn't have a central bank? Iran, North Korea, Sudan, Cuba, and Libya. Scratch Libya... So after all that they established a central bank? Welcome to true slavery. 100% better off with Gaddafi. Good job Libya.

Central banks, federal reserves, whatever. They're nothing but systems of slavery. Holding a sign until your blue in the face will not work. We need to wake up the masses, and holding up crappy little signs (and they were crappy) is not going to work anymore. Drastic measures on our part as a nation and as the human race must be taken. You have other solutions I'm all ears. A drastic occurrence of some sort will awaken the asleep. The most affective places to begin self defending would be in Washington (District of Columbia), London (The Inner Walls of London), and Rome (Vatican City). From there the Central Banks.

This is a fictional scenario of what-if. I am not advocating violence or anything illegal.