Now what a story this is! ..what a doctor said infront of an abortion

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by captaintyinknots

 

Well, if you are willing to discuss "late-term" abortions, then it isn't really an issue of women's rights is it?

Earlier in the thread I said this:

I definitely think there are only one narrow exception, the mother's life that should make 3rd trimester abortions legal. All others should be banned. I think 2nd trimester abortions should be only with some extenuating circumstance, but maybe a little more broad area for the Doctor's to choose from.

For 1st trimester abortions, I still don't like it, but if we implement some kind of mandatory counseling or education, and both parents are represented in the decision making when possible, and everyone is in agreement, then I wouldn't be totally against it.

But, I don't believe this is an issue of women's rights over their own body, unless their health is involved. I believe all parties should be represented. Go back to page 2 of this thread, and there is a good discussion about it.

edit on 9-11-2011 by getreadyalready because: (no reason given)

I disagree. Science has given us parameters as to the different developmental stages.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


until the second trimester a fetus doesn't even really have a "body" in the traditional sense. So what is being represented during the first trimester?

Fetal Development

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000


Youre not controlling your body when you abort a baby, youre murdering another person because there's not just 1 body, there are 2 bodies. Two bodies equals two people.

Not if it's just a mass of cells...


What about when you abort a foetus instead of a baby?


Oh semantics...

I think we should agree to disagree because we are in totally different situations and I have had the experience of supporting a partner through an abortion.

We will never agree on this, it seems.

reply to post by captaintyinknots


Man you have no clue, even when i try to tell you, you insist on staying ignorant. Fine then, ignorance is bliss i guess then? Stay ignorant then and enjoy your selfdelusional bliss that you have any control at all.

I suppose you believe that your vote actually has power in it to eh?

Some people really do cling to the "matrix".

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


and your deluding yourself into slavery....

better to try and control your environment then be controlled and shaped by it. Your ignorant if you think idly letting the world do everything for you will work out. At least if the world goes to # those that tried to control their environment even if they failed to do so can at least say they didn't LET it happen.

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So what does the OP give us that meets this criteria?

reply to post by captaintyinknots

I disagree. Science has given us parameters as to the different developmental stages.

So then. At some stage the fetus is a parasitic growth, but at some point it becomes a viable baby. It is a matter of a woman's control over her own body up until that immaculate moment that it becomes "alive" or "aware?"

So, in that case, we are back to the discussion on pages 2 and 3 of how to define what a "life" is?

If a Doctor could perform an amputation above the Brain Stem, to cure brain cancer, and the stem could still run the automations of the existing body, would we let him do it? Amputate 10% of the body to save 90%, it is done all the time on hands, feet, arms, etc. Are we "alive" in our brain? If so, what pattern of electrical activity makes us "alive?" If we can find it, then we can identify the very moment that fetus is alive. BUT, what if we find that pattern in Dolphins or Dogs or Trees? Are they then also alive?

I'm not trying to be obtuse, I think the entire population pretty much agrees that an embryo is not a baby, but at some point it becomes a baby, and we need to identify that point and create some protection for the baby at that point. So how do we define it?

Remember, heartbeat at 3 weeks, brainwaves at 6 weeks. Is it the mere presence of brainwaves, or do they have to be in a pattern that indicates actual thoughts?

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by captaintyinknots

 

Man you have no clue, even when i try to tell you, you insist on staying ignorant. Fine then, ignorance is bliss i guess then? Stay ignorant then and enjoy your selfdelusional bliss that you have any control at all.

I suppose you believe that your vote actually has power in it to eh?

Some people really do cling to the "matrix".

So what exactly makes you an authority enough to 'tell me'?

Are you claiming that I dont have control over what I choose to eat? over whether or not I choose to smoke or drink? Over whether or not I excersize? Really?

You can make you "the sky is falling" argument all you want. I get what you are trying to say, you are simply wrong, though.

And again, do you not see the hypocrisy in arguing that we have not control, so therefore we should have more rights taken away? Do you think that that kind of circular (lack of) logic can actually solve anything?

reply to post by GrimReaper86


Your argument is essentially, if the host (mother in the case of abortions, the man in the case of the fir tree) carrying the "parasite" was in danger, or a life-threatening situation, then the child should be aborted.

Now, I cannot change the minds of other people, nor can anyone change minds, but I can make testimony to surviving such an event. My mother had a miscarriage, and following an infection, had both of her tubes tied. Another miscarriage occurred, as it grew in the tube where the zygote is formed. That tube had to be removed.

I was born in the other tube, 8 years after these events. The doctor's strongly recommended that they abort me, because my mother's life was at risk. Thankfully, they did not, because they believe in God, and knew that it would all be okay.

Well.. here I am, 20 years later. My mom turned out fine, and I could never be grateful enough to her for her decision, even though she is no longer with us (passed away a month ago), her choice literally affected my entire life.

I simply want others to have a chance at life as well.

Abortion is child murder no matter how "pro-choicers" try to spin it. The Satanist liberal with no values and perverted sexual tendencies, who are great deceivers and hold corrupt morals dear, would love nothing more than to see innocent children sacrificed by the millions for their master.

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
SO you would rather take away the right to have control over your body all together than have women able to make their own decisions?

And what, again, makes you the authority?

Also, for the record, the phrase "to kill an unborn baby" is an oxymoron.

Society makes me the authority. I am the 1%.

Also, for the record, your statement '"to kill an unborn baby" is an oxymoron' make you an idiot.

Well, this is certainly a "hot button" issue for a lot of folks.

Although I understand the whole "right to life" issue, and respect those who feel that all life is sacred, I often find that these same people have no trouble cheering for the death penalty.

I believe that the horror stories we see daily in the news concerning mothers who abandon their children, who murder their children because they are in the way or have become a burden, or who let their babies run loose to get into all kinds of dangerous situations, are because these mothers have fallen into the trap of thinking that, if they just have the baby, everything will be hunky-dory.

How many grandparents have to raise their grandbabies these days, because their daughters popped out a kid at a young age, then realized they were seriously under-equipped to care for the child? How many kids are dragged into situations no child should be put in, like heavy duty parties with drugs and alcohol, because the parents are kids themselves? How many kids are left unattended at a young age because the young mother cannot afford child care? How many unwanted kids are crammed into foster care, because the mother didn't take care of herself during pregnancy, and the kids end up with learning disabilities and behavioral problems?

What is the deal with people who care SO MUCH about a fetus, and then when the child is born, they become just another useless eater who needs welfare? This is a case of where ideology runs headlong into reality. I have seen so-called Christians look with disgust on minority mothers will a bunch of babies, yet they swear they are totally anti-abortion. I just don't get it.

I guess the point I want to make is, if you do not believe in abortion, then don't have one. If you do, then you have the right to terminate the pregnancy. What a person does is between themselves and God. NOBODY ELSE.

Pure Propaganda and BS , this post should be destroyed .

reply to post by heineken


LOVE IT!!!! Thats an awesome story, and thumbs up to the doctor!

Originally posted by Freenrgy2

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
SO you would rather take away the right to have control over your body all together than have women able to make their own decisions?

And what, again, makes you the authority?

Also, for the record, the phrase "to kill an unborn baby" is an oxymoron.

Society makes me the authority. I am the 1%.

Also, for the record, your statement '"to kill an unborn baby" is an oxymoron' make you an idiot.

so in other works: "I'm right cuz I say so". Sorry friend, you are no authoroty, and society has flat out told you that you are wrong, which is why abortion is legal. Another illogical argument bites the dust.

Originally posted by GrimReaper86
First off, I contend that a Fetus is not the same thing as a baby.

You're dead wrong.

Secondly, birth control is seriously flawed for some woman and some woman can't be on birth control (at least in traditional hormone form).

So, let medical science come up with a way to have birth control for males outside a vasectomy.

Also, are you seriously going to sit there and pretend that all birth control work 100% of the time? Oh, and don't even get me started on being abstinent as a form of birth control because sex is an important part of a relationship for any couple whether it's important to them to have sex or not have sex at all.

That's why, genius, I'm advocating medical birth control. So these couples can screw til the cows come home and not worry about pregnancy. Geez, I thought you would be ecstatic with this.

Most people do like sex and if you intend to be with someone the rest of your life and you marry them without having sex with them only to discover that you have little to in common sexually or that you don't enjoy sex with each other it is a mistake. I think your being naive.

See above and screw like rabbits for all I care. After all, it is your body...right?

Oh and the doctor in the story is obviously a dumb ass.

Look in the mirror.

It is just as hard and risky for a mother to give birth in many cases as it would be for her to get an abortion. Incourageing a woman to kill an already born baby to give birth to an unborn fetus is just as risky in many ways as getting an abortion and then your also putting the fetus and the mother at risk when the baby is born....They could both die and then the mother would have nothing if she killed the perfectly safe already born baby. How would the doctors suggestion make any sense at all...All the story did for me is make me think of how stupid that doctor must be....

You missed the point of the story. Too bad subtlety is lost on you.

I will apologize not one bit for my beliefs. You dare scream how righteous it is for you to KILL in the name of CHOICE but you can't bring yourself to force sterilize someone who isn't in a position to raise a child. Why? Is because they have a RIGHT to have a child that could be born into poverty or a mother addicted to crack or parents with abusive tendencies. Is it the word 'force'? After all, you're forcing your way onto an unborn child, are you not. Oh, that's right, in your minds all you see is bunch of cells. How quaint. Yeah, we're all a bunch of cells, silly me.

I say it morally responsible and incumbent upon today's society to limit reproduction (not sexual escapades....I wouldn't dare deprive any of you from sex) until such time as a prospective parent or couple can PROVE that they are willing and mentally, emotionally and financially able to raise a child.

Originally posted by Ghost375
I understand the point the doctor was trying to make!

We need to bring back post-birth abortions, like the romans had back in the day.

I forget the 'scholar' in the Marxist Kenyan's philosophical reference group . . .

has seriously advocated most of his academic career that parents be allowed to kill their own children up to age 8.

How sweet . . . charitable . . . merciful . . . kind etc.

/sarcasm

reply to post by Natame


What about the babies choice? While the mother is supporting the baby in the womb, the baby still has a body of their own. I don't agree with the whole "if you can't trust me with a choice then how can you trust me with a baby" concept. A choice also led to the pregnancy. How is the doctors suggestion really any different than what the mother was suggesting? What he suggested is horrible but I don't understand why abortion isn't viewed the same way. And further more, the doctor is correct with regards to how much emotional and physical damage an abortion could cause and the abortion is also removing a life from this world that could have contributed to society.

Abortion is a hard one for me. Not like gun rights and homosexual's rights or anything. Abortion for convenience? no way, you're less than human if you believe otherwise, imo anyway. But of course theres always a girl getting raped. and even if she gave the baby up for adoption she still has to go through so much and she never asked for any of it. For me, this is the only acceptable time. Saying a woman can do what she wants with her body is stupid. If a woman wanted to kill herself, we'd try stop her. If a woman tried to sell her body, we'd try to stop her. But in some people prespective it's okay to kill a potential human life to make another's life easier

Originally posted by biggmoneyme
Abortion is a hard one for me. Not like gun rights and homosexual's rights or anything. Abortion for convenience? no way, you're less than human if you believe otherwise, imo anyway. But of course theres always a girl getting raped. and even if she gave the baby up for adoption she still has to go through so much and she never asked for any of it. For me, this is the only acceptable time. Saying a woman can do what she wants with her body is stupid. If a woman wanted to kill herself, we'd try stop her. If a woman tried to sell her body, we'd try to stop her. But in some people prespective it's okay to kill a potential human life to make another's life easier