Now what a story this is! ..what a doctor said infront of an abortion

reply to post by RevelationGeneration


What are you talking about? The Bible itself is full of more killing than any other book I've personally read. That leads me to think you haven't actually read it.

Neither that book nor any other is at issue here. This is not a literary circle. This is about life and living. When a woman gets pregnant - and she never achieved that status alone, guys - she has to make a lot of hard choices. It's not easy to go the route of abortion. It's not a painless procedure. It's not without dangers itself. You all act as though it's just like getting a filling or having a mole removed. It's a lot more personal than that.

Whatever choice you make will affect the rest of your life; having the baby and keeping it, having it and putting it up for adoption, having the baby and suffering possibly grave side effects from it (check that out - loads of danger in having a baby), having the baby and living in poverty or worse for the remainder of your days due to your *own circumstances that others cannot know*, having the baby and still having a fairly decent life even so. No one knows what will happen! It's not for outsiders to decide the course of a person's life. Things happen to all of us. Mind your own business and do the best you can with your life. Let others do the same.

reply to post by snusfanatic


but my point is concerning the parents choice. it was their choice to have sex so it should be their choice to have an abortion. i know that a big percentage of abortions are had because the pregnancy was unplanned but either way, its about free will and personal choices. if there are people who want it and if there are doctors willing to do it, who is anyone else to step in the way? if someone is really that concerned let god deal with them


and about the whole at what point thing. there have been studies showing that even up to a few months after being born babies have no sense of self. you cant remember that far back because you had nothing to base it off of, so its basically like they never had the ability to recognize that they exist

Originally posted by Super64PR
Does this mean, that when people practice safe sex for example... I kill millions of 'half' babies?

An egg or sperm alone does not a person make, there is no such thing as a "half" baby, although pro-choice people would like you to believe so.

Until the 'baby' is more than organised cells, I don't believe it constitutes as a full human lifeform. When you wash your face, you're killing millions of germs. Those too are only organised cells. But you don't worry about that I'm sure.

Will those germs grow into human beings? If not I fail to see your point. If there is an endangered bird species can I go and smash the eggs as soon as they are laid, you know since they are just some cells, no big deal right?

When you get a cold and your body fights off the germs, your body is killing millions of germ cells and yet I'm sure you feel good once you've gotten over a cold.

See above, do those germs grow into a human being?

You'll probably say, that the germs cannot grow into a sentient lifeform though. That's okay though, let use this example.

Are you vegetarian? If not, then you don't mind having sentient, self-aware animals being killed so you can eat. If you are vegetarian, then you probably don't think like this when you kill a wasp or a other insects.

Who said killing was wrong, unjust killing is wrong. Do you believe killing an animal to eat and survive is the same as killing an animal because you want to see it suffer and die? Most of us can see there is a difference. Much like an abortion of convenience is not the same as an abortion of necessity due to the pregnancy having a high likelihood of killing the mother. I am sorry if you fail to understand not everything is black and white.

Ultimately, regardless of your beliefs... we're all hypocrites at some point along the line, so we just have to deal with it.

edit on 9-11-2011 by Super64PR because: (no reason given)

edit on 9-11-2011 by Super64PR because: (no reason given)

I disagree, if you are being a hypocrite it means you are wrong somewhere along the line, and you need to take a look at what you believe. This goes for people on both sides of the aisle.

reply to post by CosmicEgg

I don't recall responding to you. Perhaps you are mistaken?

Originally posted by QuietBeige
reply to post by Southern Guardian

 

Absolutely not! I do not support laws one way or the other my confused friend.

So you don't support laws giving fertilized eggs the same rights as every other human and in turn enforcing laws over the bodies of pregnant women?

Well if that's the case then I'm glad we're on the same page.

As for me being confused, where exactly have I been confused?

I'm saying that laws are on the books and there are programs that exist that actively promote this type of behavior.

What programmes?

Originally posted by Resinveins
reply to post by marg6043

 

hey hey hey... easy with the castration talk... some of us un-needed males are on your side... so step away from the hedge clippers please...

As far as I'm concerned this issue never get's past "it's their body". I refuse to even try to tell them what to do with it.

People say the same thing with abuse. That is their families and their business, who am I to tell someone not to smack their kid. Sorry, grow a pair, step up, and speak up for what is right.

Originally posted by swoopaloop
an unborn fetus. It's alive, but is it conscious and aware that its alive? If I had to say so I would guess that it's consciousness is similar to that of an ant. Have you killed an ant before? Yes. You're a hypocrite.

So that is the criteria now? Cool, so I can take a baseball bat and bash in the skulls of anyone in a coma now, because they are unaware and unconscious, thus they are not human. You obviously disagree to my analogy which is far more accurate than yours, making you the hypocrite.

reply to post by xxblackoctoberxx


That's right we do have the free will and can choose to wrongly take away that life, but if we do so we must also be prepared to suffer the consequences of our actions. God hates abortion.

Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

He also said. "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

Our bodies are not our own they belong to GOD he is the only one that has the right to choose who lives and dies.

We are his creation.

Originally posted by Super64PR

Originally posted by swoopaloop
an unborn fetus. It's alive, but is it conscious and aware that its alive? If I had to say so I would guess that it's consciousness is similar to that of an ant. Have you killed an ant before? Yes. You're a hypocrite.

That's pretty much the point I was trying to make, which Lionhearte seems to have missed. The doctor in this story is a hypocrite because of the quote above.

It's the woman's choice, simple. The state, nor prolifers have the right to tell a person what they can do to their own body. Especially in the Western world where we say we're all for freedom and self determination.

Prolifers... go be prolife with your significant other... us prochoicers... will choose for ourselves. It's like reglion... you cannot tell me what God to believe in or if there is one at all (I'm Athiest by the way).

I don't look at a trampled flower and feel sadness.................... I look at the flower and don't care.

edit on 9-11-2011 by Super64PR because: (no reason given)

So if someone is in a coma you won't care watching someone smash in their skull? The Dr. is not the hypocrite, you are.

reply to post by xxblackoctoberxx


I understand your argument but I think you're missing mine. I judge you to be a reasonable guy who believes that at some point in its development a fetus/infant has a right to be free from murder. So, all I'm saying is there's a discussion to be had about whether that point in time is at conception, at birth, sometime after birth or somewhere in between. Your original post that 'the couple created life so they have the power to take it away' only works up to that point where the new life gains its own rights, and identifying that point is what the entire abortion debate should be about.

And I don't think the point where the child becomes 'self aware' is where I'd draw the line. But there's an argument to be had about when. That's all I"m saying.

Originally posted by ICEKOHLD
i have had an abortion, or been party to one (she decided to). know what? best damned decision we ever made. now...we're not both strapped for cash, stressed out all the time, hating each other and what our lives have become like all the other people who got pregnant in their early 20s accidentally.

go ahead...accuse me of murder! at least i'll be able to afford the lawyer to defend myself cuz i don't spend all my money on a kid that i regret having when i did. i think it's better for a couple to abort the fetus from the jump than have the kid and the kid grow up neglected and not feeling as loved as he/she should. and creating another orphan isn't very pious, either.

so...it really is a toss up. i mean me personally...i would rather be aborted and never know that i wasn't wanted than grow up with parents who wish they would've waited longer or not had me period. i don't think the human race is in danger of running out of babies anytime soon. we're also the only animals that care for our lame young. all the other animals leave the weak/lame to die or kill it themselves to put it out of it's misery. so...perhaps, we could argue that our soft spot for babies could be a weakness when compared to other species.

So if my wife will take all my money in a divorce I should be able to kill her, that way I won't be strapped for cash? If not, what is the difference, you are happy you ended a life for financial security, seems about the same. You do realize there are so many people wanting to adopt a newborn baby that the process takes years and large sums of cash because their are not enough for everyone.

reply to post by RevelationGeneration

When we disregard what God says to us about the special value of human life, we begin to diminish the value of human life and we remove the only inherent hedge against murder.

I don't know about you Rev... but a lot of the people out waving pro-life banners on one weekend in front of an abortion clinic. Are the same people waving a "support our troops" and "Kill Saddam" signs the next weekend.

In my opinion God and Spirituality is a personal thing. God doesn't say the exact same thing to all people in a Generic Statement. The 10 commandments may be good rules to live by but there are many different paths that people take. The 10 commandments were written by men. They were smart men but they were still men NOT GOD.

The 10 commandments were written so long ago they don't really apply to society today. What about execution ? What about people on death row. Why not go and show your support for the lives of the rapist and murders who are about to be put to death.

Originally posted by RevelationGeneration
That's right we do have the free will and can choose to wrongly take away that life, but if we do so we must also be prepared to suffer the consequences of our actions. God hates abortion.
J

but doesnt the bible say dont judge lest ye be judged?

who are you to have any say in the matter. shouldn't you leave it up to your god to portion out the judgement?

you try to preach the word but obviously people disagree and will continue to so instead of cramming dogma down peoples throats why not let them do what they want and let them go to hell? you may say that you are trying to fight the good fight and do god's bidding but the fact isnt going to change that there are free non religious thinkers who are going to do what they want

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by Natame

 

Your body belongs to you... only you have that choice to do what you will with it.

That sounds good, especially to a libertarian like myself.

But in our real world, it is far from the truth.

Can I stick a needle into my body and inject heroin into it? Not in the US.

It is a crime in some jurisdictions to commit suicide. If you fail in an attempt to do so, you can be jailed or placed in a mental ward.

We don't have control of our own bodies, the government(s) does.

You have control over your body, you have the ability to choose whether or not you have sex, to be on birth control, or to use a condom. To take that choice away and force sex on a person is a serious crime, and should be punishable by death in my opinion. Your choice of what to do with your body stops when another life is involved, you know, like the one growing inside the pregnant woman.

Nice story about abortion.

Originally posted by xxblackoctoberxx

Originally posted by RevelationGeneration
That's right we do have the free will and can choose to wrongly take away that life, but if we do so we must also be prepared to suffer the consequences of our actions. God hates abortion.
J

but doesnt the bible say dont judge lest ye be judged?

who are you to have any say in the matter. shouldn't you leave it up to your god to portion out the judgement?

you try to preach the word but obviously people disagree and will continue to so instead of cramming dogma down peoples throats why not let them do what they want and let them go to hell? you may say that you are trying to fight the good fight and do god's bidding but the fact isnt going to change that there are free non religious thinkers who are going to do what they want

What are you talking about? Did I say I was the one going to be doing the Judgeing? That will be God. All I did was show you what he thinks of abortion and unlawful killing.

Originally posted by Hawking
z
Pretty soon we'll consider life as beginning with dinner and a movie. Or how bout a wink?

Oh, you said "wink". Carry on!

Originally posted by Super64PR
Why are people even arguing about this? Prolifers can't force people not to abort in a free society. So as the phrase goes... "deal with it".

So we live in a free society, no one can force me to not kill my neighbor, freedom is sweet. Oh, wait, freedom doesn't mean I can just do whatever I want whenever I want and end another life just because I feel like it? I guess we both have to go back to the drawing board then.

reply to post by heineken


Okay, seriously, you're dumb. You seriously have yet to make contact with another human being in your life. No doctor would ever say that, and to think someone would change their opinion about abortion because of what you said, is completely laughable. I hope you seriously get aids for what you said because it lowers the intelligence quotient of humankind by 5 percent. It's hilarious how that, inside your little brain there (making a generalization now, extending it to everybody who is pro-life, so yes, I am saying now that EVERYBODY that's pro-life is a complete retard), you cannot conceive the very idea that this sphere floating in the cosmos is of finite size, and that we can only support a certain number of human beings on this rock. Yes. Let's just push out babies like no tomorrow. We won't run out of room or resources or anything. Seriously, pro-lifers are full-blown retards. It's basic math people. If you have 3 square feet, you can only fit 3 square feet of matter inside of it. If you have a planet the size of...whatever the size of planet Earth is, you can only fit that much crap inside of it. Get a life you hack. Better yet, get Aids. Then you might learn to respect gays. You faggot. Go die

reply to post by snusfanatic


well yes, its very gray area, and there can be alot of differing opinions about where the line should be drawn. i suppose it depends on which angle you are looking at it. i am looking at it from the point that the individual would actually be aware of the self and the world whereas i feel religious people are against it because of the fact of just taking away life in general.

i dont think it should be up to what a majority's opinion is, it should be up to whether or not the new human has the ability to experience.

but this is when it comes down to opinion sooooo, i dont know