The Tide is Turning

Originally posted by sir_slide
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

I replied to your other post in the other thread I mentioned, nothing from you in return, so I really don't see a point to this other than to validate your superior moral standpoint. It's my day off and I don't really want to spend it bickering, good luck to you.

Your reply in that thread to my post was just the same as your reply in this thread only longer and more vitriolic. A challenge was put forth to you, sport. That challenge was to actually discuss possible solutions and answers to the very clear and obvious problems we all face, but once again, you fail to rise up to the challenge and insist on maintaining a level of bickering only. This is the modus operandi of virtually most of the protestors. This is who you are!

reply to post by SLAYER69


Of course there are idealistic hippies in tie die spouting general anti establishment phrases like 'screw the corporations man' and I acknowledge this, although from where I stand they are an absolute minority. At some of the protests you see these types, and yeah sure, they're hippies, although we are all entitled to stand up for our beliefs, even if they do not understand the complexity of the issue.

I wasn't suggesting that you do not look at them critically slayer, what I am saying is that when you ONLY have criticism I find that it is poisonous and unsupportive of people who believe they have everyones best interests at heart, although I can see your point.

I gotta run, although I'm happy to discuss these things more when I return. Cheers

Good post. Anyone that is ignoring the fact that the economic system has failed to provide for our nation and that a succession of sitting governments has passed thousands of illegitimate laws in violation of our principle moral, social and political foundations (bill of rights and constitution) and thusly seeks to obtain totalitarian powers to excercise at will, is out of touch.

We should ALL be focused of putting this government in it proper place... Grovelling at our feet and in fear of it's failures.

PERIOD.

reply to post by WarminIndy


It is not a left or right issue to me but a matter of standing on my own principles and those that stand for the same thing. I stand with those in the Tea Party that want less corruption in the government as well as Wall Street out of our government.

The ones that have tried to "hijack" both movements are the sames ones I want nothing to do with, because they are the PROBLEM. They are the moneyed elite that buy our politicians and are are trying to buy the movements in order to play divide and conquer.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


ahahaha, man.

Unlike some I don't pretend to have all the answers, I'm not delusional enough to believe so. The complexity of what we're discussing is immense. Asking someone to come up with the solutions to our current world predicament is like asking someone with cancer to cure it, I'm just as dumbfounded as to how to cleanse this insidious and rotten system as the next guy, although unlike you I support change, you are happy being the way you are and see no need for change, thats fine, and I don't mean to butt heads but you come off as really confrontational and as some would say a 'know it all'. So what are your solutions? Please enlighten me

Originally posted by sir_slide
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

ahahaha, man.

Unlike some I don't pretend to have all the answers, I'm not delusional enough to believe so. The complexity of what we're discussing is immense. Asking someone to come up with the solutions to our current world predicament is like asking someone with cancer to cure it, I'm just as dumbfounded as to how to cleanse this insidious and rotten system as the next guy, although unlike you I support change, you are happy being the way you are and see no need for change, thats fine, and I don't mean to butt heads but you come off as really confrontational and as some would say a 'know it all'. So what are your solutions? Please enlighten me

That's right, what you pretend is that by having no answers this some how makes you superior to those who are actually interested in fixing the problems. You absurdly claim that asking for solutions to the problems today is pointless, then get pouty and petulant when people ask what the hell you are protesting about then. Where people who do want answers criticize the "movement" as a whole, people like you pipe up and attack the person who is criticizing individually, attacking their character and smugly declaring this an honorable action.

You foolishly make assumptions about those you attack for no other reason than they haven't praised you for pumping your fist in the air and arrogantly claiming to represent the "99%".

If you were truly paying attention, and actually interested in solving these problems, you wouldn't, this late in the game, what my solutions are, and your dis-ingenuousness in asking now is evident.

That said, here is my answer: All closed systems tend towards entropy. This is the Law of Entropy, which actually comes from the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, but it is observably so that the law of entropy relates to more than just the chemical reactions of heat systems, and our own economy is a fine example. It's entropy (another word for entropy is chaos) is a direct product of the closed system of economics we have been dealing with for more than 100 years.

Open systems have a much better chance of success because they face less obstacles to encourage this entropy. Free and unregulated markets are open systems and under such a system massive competition is possible, as opposed to the ridiculously regulated market of today. All the clamoring for more regulation as a knee jerk reaction to corporatism misses the point. That more regulation only strengthens corporatism and ensures that individuals cannot compete in that market. This is part of what is killing America.

Further, there is absolutely no reason that banking institutions should have the strangle hold on economies that they do. There are only two rational reasons to even do business with a bank. Those two reasons are; storing wealth, or taking out a loan. Most people do not have near enough wealth to justify doing business with a bank in that manner, and since they do not have near enough wealth it is very unlikely they would ever secure a loan from a bank without all the con games banks have employed the past several decades. In short, there never was any reason, other than government colluded with banks to coerce people into setting up bank accounts.

This coercion has happened, in a large part, through the odious "income" taxation scheme, and most people being employees have foolishly agreed to sign Form W-4's accepting the false claims that it was the "law" to do so. No one ever had to sign a Form W-4 which is called a "Withholding Authorization Certificate". Your employer, all the while he is insisting that you have to, by "law", sign this authorization certificate only underscores how willing the vast majority of people have agreed to be dumbed down. How is it even possible that you are required "by law' to authorize your employer to function as a fiat tax collector on your behalf, and how was it you were even made liable to this odious "income" tax to begin with?

The answer is to starve the beast we have all been feeding that is no so insistent on biting the hand that fed it. This takes understanding the law, (but of course, be careful in understanding that law that you don't appear to be as "know it all"), and courage. Lot's and lot's of courage. Not sleeping in tent on the sidewalk courage, but the kind of courage that puts not just you, but your loved ones at risk. it is that courage, and that willingness to stand up to tyranny in a meaningful way, that if a genuine "movement' were to grow doing this that problems would begin to be solved.

I know of few people that are engaged in any taxed activities that would actually make them liable for this "income" tax, but most pay it anyway. That is the biggest problem this country faces, this is what needs to be fixed.

reply to post by KryptKeeper


Listen mate I don't know if you have some kind of problem understanding anothers point of view,have you ever fought for anything? I have and it aint easy but I come out the otherside a better person, try battling with yourself a little. Get out.ya comfort zone and ya might learn something. And there's nothing wrong with people who work in McDonalds.

reply to post by KryptKeeper

Ps.i work i'm a painter and decorator/odd job man but have worked in Burger King in the past. So what?

This is why those protestors are so crucial:

I think it's very telling that my post concerning the fact that the cause cannot be divorced from the actions has been utterly ignored by the OWS proponents in this thread.

Harte

reply to post by Harte

What if that cause was "death to all Jews?" Could we admire someone for having the "strength to stand up and fight for what they believe in" if that were their cause? See. The cause actually matters and, IMO, cannot be divorced from the protest itself. Harte

Really, you are going to go there? REALLY? Seriously, you are delusional if you think it expect to you respect someone calling for that. that's pure insanity, but it does give us a glimpse of how your mind works.

The entire point was about the fact that in today's apathetic society, some people still have strength in their convictions.

The tea party deserves, and has, my respect. Not for what they were doing or how they did it, merely because they got off their butts and tried.

When asking if you can at least respect peoples willingness to do this, I am not asking you to respect people smearing feces on a hot dog cart. I am not asking you to respect people spewing pure antisemetic crap. you know damn well that's not what we were trying to talk about here.

For years all i've heard is how this generation is a waste, no ambition, lazy, apathetic. Yet from the actions I see the opposite, I saw more young people than ever vote in the last election (even if they voted for Nobama) I see tens of thousands, if not more, young people in the US, Canada and all over, trying to do something.

Sure, you're answer is let the government fix itself. We tried that. how's your 401(k) doing?

But whatever, you guys have an agenda and refuse to deviate from it. At least that fact isn't lost on everyone, the more you attempt to make a simple discussion on political action about OWS specifically, when it's not, you just look like an idiot.

Then, in your famous round about way, you try to insinuate I support antisemitism?

Get bent.

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by phishyblankwaters

 

They are taking time out of their lives to go fight for what they believe is right. do you have the guts to fight for what you believe in?

First of all, they are not “fighting” - They are protesting. There is a BIG difference. There are many of us on ATS who have actually fought (as in – had real bullets shot at us) for what we believe in. Please do not try and portray punks protesting as heroes or equate what they’re doing with the actions of people who have worn a uniform for this country.

If you intend to post in this thread, make your post about how you feel about these people uniting to fight for what they perceive as being right. Ignore what they are fighting for, and just reflect on the fact that these people, in nations all over the earth, are standing in the cold fighting for something. Even if you disagree with what they are fighting for, can you not at least RESPECT them for actually trying?

So we are to not pay attention to WHAT they are “fighting” for? We should simply applaud them for having the courage to protest? This is the same mentality of some parents who believe every kid who played in the game, both the winning and losing teams, should get a trophy. Why would I support people taking to the streets when I disagree with what they stand for? There is nothing honorable about causing trouble.

I agree totally!

There are plenty of youtubes for the Occupy movement. These people are generally dumb. With that being said, I will sit back and continue to watch these morons get pelted with tear gas and rubber bullets.

lrn2lrn

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

Open systems have a much better chance of success because they face less obstacles to encourage this entropy. Free and unregulated markets are open systems and under such a system massive competition is possible, as opposed to the ridiculously regulated market of today. All the clamoring for more regulation as a knee jerk reaction to corporatism misses the point. That more regulation only strengthens corporatism and ensures that individuals cannot compete in that market. This is part of what is killing America.

Interesting, when did this thread become a solutions thread? Anyways, you start off right, but.....

Deregulation is what caused the energy nightmare, remember Enron? Probably not, 911 did a great job of making people forget about that.

A true free market should work. the problem lies in the design of the system. I can't afford a lobbyist, therefore my needs aren't a matter for them to deal with. A free market can only work if the corruption is removed. Since power corrupts, that's impossible.

BUT.

If we stop and actually hold these people accountable and actually punish them under the same penal system the rest of us live by, maybe it wouldn't be as bad as it is.

Right now in the US corporations and private individuals are buying up your water. They have succeeded in draining lake Michigan to an extremely reduced level.

How? By playing the game of course. T. Boone Pickens managed to play the water code like a harp, paying off whomever he needed to, to get his home set as a "water district". Smartly, he bought land above a massive aquifer and because of the corrupt joke of a system, is able to drill down and suck all that water up.

The same thing is happening near the great lakes, they are sucking up all the fresh water from the aquifers that actually feed the lakes, at a rate faster than nature can restore.

That's why your bottled water, that unregulated water, is more expensive than gasoline.

the free market has decided water, something every human on earth needs to survive, is the next "market" and are placing themselves to control it, and by extension, your very life. All thanks to a corrupt bought out system of government and regulations.

Without holding people accountable, it really doesn't matter how you change or manipulate the system, people will always find a way to game it, for profit.

Your financial industry sold fraudulent mortgage backed securities as sound investments, completely crashed the markets, and what happened? you handed trillions of your tax dollars to them, as they gave themselves record bonuses.

All of these protesters have their own reasons for being there, some I support, a lot I don't, but at least these people see a problem and are actively trying to do something about it. Now that so many people are aware of some of the issues, like those you are proposing solutions for, maybe people can sit down and actually find some solutions that might actually work.

I have my ideas, hold the corporate fraudsters accountable for their crimes, like any of us would be, and if not End the Fed entirely, reorganize it. A private bank should not control the value of, and amount in circulation of, the worlds reserve currency.

Maybe this is why so many countries are stepping away from the green back? Which countries? Well, any the US has recently invaded for one, and any country being portrayed as a potential enemy in the media.

Here's an even better example of how the entire system is corrupt from the ground up.

BP oil disaster. Who was running security for the BP cleanup sites?

The National Guard
The US Army
The US coast guard.

That's right, those groups paid with your tax dollars to protect you and your country were contracted out to a private corporation using equipment you paid for.

You seem to have an amazing grasp of the issue, and actually have put into words some ideas that sound good, have you thought of taking that to the next step?

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

Not sleeping in tent on the sidewalk courage, but the kind of courage that puts not just you, but your loved ones at risk. it is that courage, and that willingness to stand up to tyranny in a meaningful way, that if a genuine "movement' were to grow doing this that problems would begin to be solved.

couldn't agree more, OWS needs someone like you willing to take it to the next level. The awareness is there, now it's time to put that awareness to use. Sadly, with so many people involved, for so many reasons, it's going to be tough to direct them towards a single goal.

Not all are just camping out, and I'm pretty sure you understand that as well. Yes we hear about the rowdy idiots, because that's was Fox news wants you to hear about. How many MsM reports have you seen talking about the national bank transfer day and how it's crippling Bank of America?

Anyways, without lobbyists in Washington what do you propose they do? I surely hope you don't propose they cheat on their taxes, or fail to file them completely, I surely hope you don't suggest they stop paying their bills.

Those actions play right into their hands.

Don't feed the beast is a very astute piece of advice, but you must be sure of your methods. Starve it, but don't put yourself into their pocket in the process.

the worst thing you can do, from a banks standpoint, is pay your bills on time and live a responsible life based on your means.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by Harte

 

What if that cause was "death to all Jews?" Could we admire someone for having the "strength to stand up and fight for what they believe in" if that were their cause? See. The cause actually matters and, IMO, cannot be divorced from the protest itself. Harte

Really, you are going to go there? REALLY? Seriously, you are delusional if you think it expect to you respect someone calling for that. that's pure insanity, but it does give us a glimpse of how your mind works.

The entire point was about the fact that in today's apathetic society, some people still have strength in their convictions.

And what is the above belief, if not a "conviction?"

You make my point rather well, if inelegantly.

The "convictions" cannot be divorced from the protest itself.

It is plain that the OP is not actually interested in the sort of responses he claims to want, since they cannot possibly exist, logically.

Harte

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

Originally posted by gentledissident
I have to admit, it's good to see people taking to the streets. Occupy might not be far enough to the left for me, but at least it's stating the problems inherent in the system. I don't think you can avoid the problems without designing a new system, but at least they are pointing out problems to the segment of the population who is A, aware of Occupy and B, on that particular fence.

Not far left enough? How much left can it get after the Communist Party joins?

How is communism leftist? Putting the control into the hands of a few, like is done today, seem conservative to me. I'm talking about socialism. This movement seems to either promote the sociopaths' playground of capitalism, or doesn't have enough guts to form communes which guard against infiltration by sociopaths. Eventually a system should form from those of us who want to live in peace and harmony. I would think that would frustrate sociopaths so much, they would violate already existing laws. There would be no reason to outlaw sociopaths . Perhaps they could be given an island called Cutthroat, and they could compete to their hearts' content. It might be harder for them to fool each other than it was the now free citizenry, but I hoping they'll enjoy the challenge.

Originally posted by gentledissident

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

Originally posted by gentledissident
I have to admit, it's good to see people taking to the streets. Occupy might not be far enough to the left for me, but at least it's stating the problems inherent in the system. I don't think you can avoid the problems without designing a new system, but at least they are pointing out problems to the segment of the population who is A, aware of Occupy and B, on that particular fence.

Not far left enough? How much left can it get after the Communist Party joins?

How is communism leftist?

edit on 10-11-2011 by gentledissident because: a gone

Communism IS leftist. Communism is as far left as you can get. Communism means that the populace has no rights because everything is controlled by the State. What does that mean by the State? That means the government.

It's like people have never heard of Communist states before.

reply to post by gentledissident

How is communism leftist? Putting the control into the hands of a few, like is done today, seem conservative to me.

You seem to be working from your own definitions rather than widly accepted meanings of those terms. I recommend you do some serious reading.

Originally posted by Nokrank
reply to post by KryptKeeper

 

Ps.i work i'm a painter and decorator/odd job man but have worked in Burger King in the past. So what?

There is honor in all work. Whatever you do, just do it the best you can. The funny thing is this, people make fun of mechanics, yet all people who drive cars take them to mechanics, even the wealthy. People make fun of fast food workers, and yet everybody eats at fast food restaurants. Everybody makes fun of people who work in stores, but everyone still shops.

That is funny, all these jobs that people feel are beneath them, they still need their goods and services, no matter how wealthy they are. There is honor in all work. People have forgotten that.

Originally posted by LifeIsPeculiar
reply to post by gentledissident

 

How is communism leftist? Putting the control into the hands of a few, like is done today, seem conservative to me.

You seem to be working from your own definitions rather than widly accepted meanings of those terms. I recommend you do some serious reading.

I'm operating under these definitions,

Left: People are equal because they are alive. Everyone should have equal access to necessities.

Right: One controlling group of elitists should dictate to the rest of us who are inferior. The government, not the people, should be one with the manufactures.

Socialism: People are equal because they are alive. Everyone should have equal access to necessities.

Communism: One controlling group of elitists should dictate to the rest of us who are inferior. The government, not the people, should be one with the manufactures.

The US seems awfully right wing to me. There is 1 party disguising itself as 2. The government and corporations are 1 entity.