The Tide is Turning

Originally posted by gentledissident

Originally posted by LifeIsPeculiar
reply to post by gentledissident

 

How is communism leftist? Putting the control into the hands of a few, like is done today, seem conservative to me.

You seem to be working from your own definitions rather than widly accepted meanings of those terms. I recommend you do some serious reading.

I'm operating under these definitions,

Left: People are equal because they are alive. Everyone should have equal access to necessities.

Right: One controlling group of elitists should dictate to the rest of us who are inferior. The government, not the people, should be one with the manufactures.

Socialism: People are equal because they are alive. Everyone should have equal access to necessities.

Communism: One controlling group of elitists should dictate to the rest of us who are inferior. The government, not the people, should be one with the manufactures.

The US seems awfully right wing to me. There is 1 party disguising itself as 2. The government and corporations are 1 entity.

Marxist theory contends that socialism is just a transitional stage on the road to communism.

In political science, the term "communism" is sometimes used to refer to communist states, a form of government in which the state operates under a one-party system and declares allegiance to Marxism-Leninism or a derivative thereof.

So which one party do you wish that would be the sole rule? And if you did not like that leadership, what are you going to do about it?

Why would you want to live in a society that removes all personal freedoms?

reply to post by WarminIndy
Who said I was a Marxist?

Originally posted by gentledissident
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Who said I was a Marxist?

You seemed a little confused on leftism and communism within the framework of socialism. Socialism is leftist, it always has been and always will be.

www.broadleft.org...
www.dsausa.org...
socialistworker.org...
www.leftforum.org...

You might not consider yourself a Marxist, but Leftist ideology is indeed Marxist.

Originally posted by WarminIndy Socialism is leftist, it always has been and always will be.

No argument there

Originally posted by WarminIndyYou might not consider yourself a Marxist, but Leftist ideology is indeed Marxist.

I think you mean Marx was leftist when he pointed out the eventual master/slave relationship we have today.

Consider me a gentledissidentist. However, I have to admire Robert Owen's intentions.

Originally posted by gentledissident

Originally posted by WarminIndy Socialism is leftist, it always has been and always will be.

No argument there

Originally posted by WarminIndyYou might not consider yourself a Marxist, but Leftist ideology is indeed Marxist.

I think you mean Marx was leftist when he pointed out the eventual master/slave relationship we have today.

Consider me a gentledissidentist. However, I have to admire Robert Owen's intentions.

edit on 10-11-2011 by gentledissident because: well, YOU don't have to

I don't see the master/slave relationship we have. Don't people sign contracts when applying for cars and credit? And aren't most states AT WILL employment states?

Here is an idea, people who want a Utopian society can have it if they want...and here is a solution I am offering:
Take 100 OWS protestors, they pool their money and buy and island. They all go live on that island and create their Utopian society. If it works, perhaps then they can get others to buy islands.

www.privateislandsonline.com...
howtobuyaprivateisland.com...

That is one solution I am offering. I can also offer the solution of OWS protestors not signing contracts for anything and making payments on the current ones. Another solution being offered is, just don't work for contract, work At Will.

Didn't someone on here ask for solutions? There, I gave three.

Originally posted by WarminIndy
I don't see the master/slave relationship we have. Don't people sign contracts when applying for cars and credit? And aren't most states AT WILL employment states?

Sure, I could quit my totally useless job at anytime. That would destroy my family. I've looked around for other jobs. I seem to be either too scary, too goofy, or too free spirited to hire. I'm just going off the reaction and personalities of the employers I talk to. I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but in my area, the rich seem to shy away from us free thinkers. It seems they only want to talk to people who buy their commercialism or sell it. They can tell I'm different before I even open my mouth by the look on my face. I have a job now working for a very evil corporation. However, I'm 3rd party and customers never have to see me. I just have to be good at bamboozling you and taking your money. I am

Originally posted by WarminIndy
Here is an idea, people who want a Utopian society can have it if they want...and here is a solution I am offering:
Take 100 OWS protestors, they pool their money and buy and island. They all go live on that island and create their Utopian society. If it works, perhaps then they can get others to buy islands.

Why do WE have to be the ones to go off to an island. I always imagined it would be you people I agree, we need to take real action.

Originally posted by WarminIndy
not signing contracts for anything and making payments on the current ones. Another solution being offered is, just don't work for contract, work At Will.

I am under no contractual obligations and am debt free. We can also stop buying useless and overpriced junk from those who take our money and plot against us with it. Speaking of whom, I'll be taking your money later

reply to post by gentledissident


LOL, I don't think you will be taking mine. I have none to give and I never, never buy anything from telemarketers no matter how much they beg. And if you work for a bill collection agency, I never get calls from them.

The last time a bill collector called, the conversation went like this "Hello, you do realize we are obligated to call you everyday" to which I replied "Good, we'll be friends and I can't wait for your call tomorrow. How's your mom?"

That was in 2008. Not another since then. Well, good luck trying.

reply to post by gentledissident

I'm operating under these definitions,

Your definitions are just naive and wrong on many levels.

Left(Socialism): People are equal because they are alive. Everyone should have equal access to necessities.

Left means you lean socialist, which means that the fruits of a person's work belong to the collective. It strips people of the desire to excel.

Communism: One controlling group of elitists should dictate to the rest of us who are inferior. The government, not the people, should be one with the manufactures.

That is indeed communism, which is merely socialism with a "we know what you need" dictator enforcing uniform misery on everyone but themselves. All socialists grow up to be communists.
If you think the Post Ofiice is the ultimate in effeciency and productivity, then government ownership of manufacturing makes sense. I don't think you have much real-world experience, certainly not many visits to government offices. I have yet to discover a government office that cares about the people that go in there seeking help, or arn't looking forward to their next break.

The government and corporations are 1 entity.

Well, if you owned your own own company here in the US, you wouldn't imagine that to be true. It just isn't true. The government is typically unfriendly toward companies, and drives their operating costs very high. In that case, the government is also instrumental in forcing companies to take overly good care of the employees ... making the government actually "the friend of the people".

Where do you live? Your knowledge of life and the US are fictional.

If socialism/communism is so wonderful, why do people try so hard to escape from those countries? Why doesn't anyone risk their life to get into China, Combodia, or the former Soviet Union? Why do people swim from Cuba instead of to Cuba? Do they know something you don't know? If you want to live in a socialist or communist country, people GO TO ONE, don't mess up life for those who know better.

Originally posted by LifeIsPeculiar
If you want to live in a socialist or communist country, people GO TO ONE, don't mess up life for those who know better.

Nail head hit successfully.

I don't think many people actually understand what it is like to live under socialism or communism. There are a large number of people in the US who have lived in communist or socialist countries. They now live in the US. You might try asking them why sometime.

Yes, the idea of socialism is great. Unfortunately, human nature will always overrun idealism in any such situation.

Did we not just see a "socialist" leader overthrown in Libya? Were you folks rooting for or against Gaddafi? He started out as "Brother Leader and Guide of the Revolution" and ended up as "King of Kings of Africa".

My questions, then, are:
- Who, under a perfect socialist society, will run all of these wonderful equality assuring programs?
- Who, under a perfect socialist society, will ensure dissidents who want more than everyone else are successfully neutralized?
- How, under a perfect socialist society, would dissidents be neutralized?

I am curious.

reply to post by ottobot

I don't think many people actually understand what it is like to live under socialism or communism. There are a large number of people in the US who have lived in communist or socialist countries. They now live in the US. You might try asking them why sometime.

My wife is from China. She can talk for a long time about the horrors of life in a communist nation. She gets really angry at Americans who spout socialism and communism. It is crystal clear to her that those are naive and ignorant people. She is very proud to be a US citizen, and a VERY happy capitalist.

Originally posted by LifeIsPeculiar
My wife is from China. She can talk for a long time about the horrors of life in a communist nation. She gets really angry at Americans who spout socialism and communism. It is crystal clear to her that those are naive and ignorant people. She is very proud to be a US citizen, and a VERY happy capitalist.

Guess people don't really understand what left and right are and are not. Horrors can also be experienced in right leaning governments. Hitler, Mussolini and Franco were rightist.

Yes they may have used the word socialist in their party names to gather support but its politics. You don't really think politicians always tell the truth?

Originally posted by LifeIsPeculiar
My wife is from China. She can talk for a long time about the horrors of life in a communist nation. She gets really angry at Americans who spout socialism and communism. It is crystal clear to her that those are naive and ignorant people. She is very proud to be a US citizen, and a VERY happy capitalist.

Great point....

Hell, Even China has turned their collective backs on Mao's little red book of "happiness & Paradise" and have embrace Capitalism.

reply to post by daskakik

Yes they may have used the word socialist in their party names to gather support but its politics.

According to the definitions found in the dictionary and the historical records, those WWII nations really were socialist dictatorships. Facism has far-right tendencies, but it is still rooted in socialism.

The main point I am trying to make is that there are no socialist or communist countries that are "utopian gardens". People ALWAYS try to escape those places, but seldom attempt to migrate to them.

Socialist and communist nations ALL eliminate the "useful idiots" who gave rise to the "new" government. Check it out for yourself! Those in the OWS movement would all be killed by the government they are trying to usher in. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, et al killed their enablers once they got into power.

Originally posted by LifeIsPeculiar
reply to post by daskakik

 

The main point I am trying to make is that there are no socialist or communist countries that are "utopian gardens". People ALWAYS try to escape those places, but seldom attempt to migrate to them.

Socialist and communist nations ALL eliminate the "useful idiots" who gave rise to the "new" government. Check it out for yourself! Those in the OWS movement would all be killed by the government they are trying to usher in. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, et al killed their enablers once they got into power.

True and what they often installed were state capitalist systems. You call them socialist because that is what their propaganda says.

One of the first things that Hitler did upon taking control was bust the unions. How is that socialist?

The one thing that all those left and right dictators share is authoritarianism. That isn't indicative or dependent of economic ideology. China is a perfect example Authoritarian and capitalist. In other words oppressive and rightist.

reply to post by daskakik

China is a perfect example Authoritarian and capitalist.

China is a socialist dictatorship. The capitalism over there works only for those who are somehow "in bed" with government officials. All corporations are owned by the government, usually on some sort of "lease" to the individual who managed to bribe the right officials or have relatives in high places.

Their society is very badly balanced between the "haves" and "have nots". They are headed for some serious trouble. My wife is generation 0 from China, and maintains contact with people who still live there. China's government is really just a "Communist Dynasty".

reply to post by LifeIsPeculiar

What you describe is state capitalism. Now you may say that the only real capitalism is free market capitalism and you are entitled to that opinion but there are other forms of capitalism and capitalism is right wing. That is what makes China rightist.

The problem I see is people trying to use a single word to describe complex systems. Not going to work.

reply to post by daskakik

You call them socialist because that is what their propaganda says.

I call them socialist because they downsized the individual to be a participant in bringing glory to the state through unquestioned obediance. Everyone's efforts were managed "for the common good". That is socialism under facism.

It is true, however, that the Germans allowed factory ownership to persist under individuals. That was a concession Hitler granted to Herman Goering in order to maintain a manufacturing base under management still friendly to the Reich. Hitler's original goals as stated in Mein Kamph were to nationalize everything. Idealists always have to compromise with reality.

Originally posted by LifeIsPeculiar
I call them socialist because they downsized the individual to be a participant in bringing glory to the state through unquestioned obediance. Everyone's efforts were managed "for the common good". That is socialism under facism.

That is not what socialism means. Socialism is the worker's ownership of the means of production. Nothing more, nothing less.

Unquestioned obediance is authoritarianism and, as I stated before, is not dependent on any one form of economic model.

reply to post by daskakik

That is not what...

OK, we can argue these semantics until the cows come home. If the OWS commies take arms to the street in order to make over my Nation in their misbegotten sociaist/communist image, I will oppose them with the force of arms. Or maybe just sit back and enjoy the view while someone else turns them into red mush.

reply to post by LifeIsPeculiar


You brought up dictionary definitions and I pointed out that your use (as well as many) of left and right is not in agreement to those dictionary definitions.

Wishing death upon people without understanding what it is that they are for because you don't understand the words they use is kinda sad.

Oh well, really makes no difference, the US is already quite socialist and nobody has really done anything to stop it.