Oakland : second Iraq war veteran in intensive care after police clashes

I was outraged and did not support the war and I did what I could to stop it from happening before it started.

But I must admit that when Colin Powell went before the UN I grudgingly gave him the benefit of the doubt. Remember this was after 9/11. I could not believe that Colin Powell would lie in such a profound manner. I respected him for bringing some integrity back to the military command structure after Vietnam. Boy I gobbled it up hook line and sinker. I kept thinking "Why are we attacking Iraq?" something kept saying "For the oil idiot" OIL "O-peration I-raqi L-iberation" For empire. For the empire that is owned by the 1%.

I hope this fellow recovers and wish him well.

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth

Originally posted by neo96
Where was your outrage for the last decade when they were get shot at blown up in Iraq and Aghansitan? Oh i get it just pick up that little ole Veteran title and use them as props to justify that little political cause named OWS.

I can't speak for anyone else, but my outrage for that, started in around 2005. I admit, like most, I was in support of invading Iraq, at the start, back on 03. But as it started to be revealed that Iraq had nothing to do with anything/

I found that very disrespectful to our soldiers who were putting their life on the line. As well as to the people of the US who were being lied to about the reasons for being over there and to the people of Iraq and Afghanistan.

And as for picking up the veterans and using them as props. Please see my previous statements.

reply to post by gimme_some_truth


I didnt call anyone a name there. I don't think it's fair to devalue anyone's opinion when it can't be known the motivations for that opinion. I won't NOT discuss his veteran status just because it may be misconstrued as opportunistic.

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by gimme_some_truth

 

It's disrespectul that a man was beaten to the point he has a lacerated spleen. But sure, be outraged at the people raising awareness of it as opposed to the crime.

I AM one of those people raising awareness... You should really read my first several posts in this thread in order to see where I am coming from.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I am just sick of the name calling and bickering is all... That is exactly what "they" want...You keep that up and watch the OWS movement fail....

Divide and conquer, anyone?

edit on 4-11-2011 by gimme_some_truth because: (no reason given)

indeed tea party could go after governmental corruption, while OWS focuses on corporate
methinks the tea has been spiked, the way TP's have been bashing OWS nearly from day one

definitely D&C

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by gimme_some_truth

 

I didnt call anyone a name there. I don't think it's fair to devalue anyone's opinion when it can't be known the motivations for that opinion. I won't NOT discuss his veteran status just because it may be misconstrued as opportunistic.

No, no names were called. What you said was that he put his life on the line to further the corporate cause under the guise of patriotism.

You don't see that as disrespectful to this mans service?You used his service as a means to take a shot at "TPTB". I find that disrespectful to his service.

I am not asking you to not mention his vet status. I am asking that we stop using such things as a means to take shots at each other.

I am trying to call for an end to the bickering, cheap shots and name calling.

It is exactly what corporations love to see us doing. If we are too busy fighting amongst ourselves, then nothing will ever come of this...

Like I said, divide and conquer, anyone?

Am I really asking for so much here? If we want to see this movement make changes, then we really have to cut this stuff out.

reply to post by gimme_some_truth


Your method to end the bickering is to attack me for:
Being angry that man was beaten like he was.
Being angry that a blanket label of opportunists was used.
?

reply to post by Kali74


Asking you to to join me in stopping the bickering and saying that I find it disrespectful to use his service as a means to take a shot at "TPTB" is an attack?




I don't understand what you are so defensive about. Again, I am on your side here... I just don't like to see anyone taking shots at anyone. Yes, I pointed out that you took a shot. That is not meant as an attack at all.


I am asking that we all work together to put an end to the attacks, cheap shots and name calling.

If it that comes across as an attack or offends you. I truly apologize.....

But the cheap shots, bickering, name calling and attacks must stop...Same goes for the violence that has been taking place. Regardless of who started the violence... There has been violence from some protestors. If we truly wish to change anything... then all this needs to stop...

Otherwise, we will only have more of the same...And honestly, there is no need for me or anyone else to sink to such a level.

Besides this thing started out as a non-violent movement.Remember? This is where divide and conquer comes in. Keep us fighting and arguing and we will be to occupied too make any real changes....Yes, pun intended.

Here is to keeping both sides honest.

But again, I apologize if I offended you or you feel attacked.

reply to post by DerepentLEstranger

same argument made at Nuremberg, more or less

Less actually. But ok, now I'm being compared to a Nazi.

but hey, keep standing up for POSUS* and your masters

You completely missed the point of that post if that is what you got from it.

but don't cry when your health benefits get cut [coming soon]

What does this have to do with anything in this thread?

and you're replaced by a drone.

I don't think I'm going to be replaced by Arnold or Robocop any time soon.

I hate to stick my nose in to this discussion because its gonna get ripped off. but I just want to point out that it has become more about whose sides is in the right.

it should be about how the people in charge view those who have served in our armed forces no mater if they support the OWS or the government they have or currently serve.

the cops in this country will follow there orders no mater who gets in front of them no mater if it one lone protester or a military person they will arrest you if you don't resist they shouldn't have to put you in the hospital like that.

In big cities they might get out of hand and with more and more people joining the OWS they will get even more desperate. you shouldn't depend on your military background to protect you from being treated like crap because the largest employer of ex military is the police.

I read all this and wonder if any of you read. The US has always engaged in wars of aggression. Ante 1776 at least. Our politicians have almost always been bought, some of us would call them traitors...because they ARE traitors. We are disgusting...we send dumb kids to kill so our Industrialists can profit.

Still...still our dumb kids try to justify the murder and mayhem. Such is the power of indoctrination. You disgust me. I do not support you. I do not "support OUR troops". You are not MY troops, you have been duped into committing murder. If you want to kill...then kill, but do NOT do it in my name, nor with my tax dollars.

Originally posted by projectvxn
These veterans only matter to you people because they're participating in OWS.

If they are actually serving the country or aren't part of OWS then you people would be screaming about them being baby killers, murderers and what ever other anti-service member garbage you all spew..You use the veteran status as a symbol trying to siphon off the legitimacy of it while simultaneously holding contempt for the very actions that made it possible for you OWS people to use them like pawns in your stupid little propaganda war.

You make me sick.

edit on 4-11-2011 by projectvxn because: (no reason given)

You make me sick dude.

you are 100% against this, and for what I have no idea.

put it this way, send the cops to the war front. THEN we will see who is right.

Kids will run away and leave their uniforms. Men will stand proud.

What the hell are you doing, project? Non stop attack of the people who stand up for their RIGHTS. You at least have them, Other countries do not. Damn it, you need more than a yeller mouth to speak.

That is really sickening.

reply to post by Ha`la`tha

you are 100% against this, and for what I have no idea.

I have explained my reasons for not jumping on the OWS bandwagon several times. You just don't like my reasons. Which is fine. No one is making you accept them and no one is forcing you to take my view of it.

put it this way, send the cops to the war front. THEN we will see who is right.

WTF? As a previous poster mentioned, the police are the largest employer of veterans in the country. Do I agree with OPD methods? not necessarily. But I'm not stupid enough to believe that the protesters are totally innocent either. If you let scum into your movement they will trash it.

Maybe this who "leaderless" "message less" movement wasn't such a good plan of action after all? OWS has let some seriously extreme groups in, people with anti-American/anti-Capitalist views who think violence is the answer to everything. These are the people who are undermining your movement, not me.

Kids will run away and leave their uniforms. Men will stand proud.

I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.

What the hell are you doing, project? Non stop attack of the people who stand up for their RIGHTS.

You have the right to PEACEABLY ASSEMBLE. Not to riot, start fires, throw crap at cops, destroy private property, vandalize public and private property, and cover up crimes to make sure the movement doesn't look bad.

You people seem to behave under this notion that protesting negates all the other laws in the city, state, and country. That somehow the First Amendment is also a license to destroy and riot. It isn't. Your movement will have some legitimacy when you start to figure it out.

You at least have them, Other countries do not. Damn it, you need more than a yeller mouth to speak.

reply to post by projectvxn

You people seem to behave under this notion that protesting negates all the other laws in the city, state, and country. That somehow the First Amendment is also a license to destroy and riot. It isn't. Your movement will have some legitimacy when you start to figure it out.

Who is you people? The provocatuers, the ones the protesters tried to stop at risk to their own personal safety in Oakland? The ones New Yorkers try to go to the cops about only to be told to take it to their GA's? Everything is not black and white.

reply to post by Kali74

The provocatuers, the ones the protesters tried to stop at risk to their own personal safety in Oakland?

They WERE the protesters.

OWS' true colors are on display.

How many riots have to happen?
How much lawlessness has to take place?

Originally posted by projectvxn
These veterans only matter to you people because they're participating in OWS.

If they are actually serving the country or aren't part of OWS then you people would be screaming about them being baby killers, murderers and what ever other anti-service member garbage you all spew..You use the veteran status as a symbol trying to siphon off the legitimacy of it while simultaneously holding contempt for the very actions that made it possible for you OWS people to use them like pawns in your stupid little propaganda war.

You make me sick.

edit on 4-11-2011 by projectvxn because: (no reason given)

You make me sick, acting like you don't care about a human being being beaten down at a peaceful protest. Don't you see your country is headed right into a police state. What the hell is wrong with you?

Ok, you disagree with OWS, but seriously?! Are you that brainwashed that seeing your fellow americans getting beaten down for no reason doesn't matter to you anymore. You, sir, are a sad phenomenon.

There's a difference between disagreeing with a movement and not caring about unfair police action.

Does it really matter that he's a veteran. He's a human, citizen. He can be the lamest junkie in the world, the richest man, a veteran, or a 9 to 5 worker, none deserve to be beaten like that.

Now take your hatred and leave.

EDIT: Big thumb down to you!

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by Kali74

 

The provocatuers, the ones the protesters tried to stop at risk to their own personal safety in Oakland?

They WERE the protesters.

OWS' true colors are on display.

How many riots have to happen?
How much lawlessness has to take place?

edit on 5-11-2011 by projectvxn because: (no reason given)

Once again you are wrong.



These are members of the Black Bloc. They have nothing to do with the protest, they show at every single one of them to cause chaos. Nice try man.

reply to post by Gab1159

You make me sick, acting like you don't care about a human being being beaten down at a peaceful protest.

I think it's unfortunate that people are getting hurt.

2 things on this point:

1. This is NOT a peaceful protest.

2. These veterans would not matter to these people if they got killed or hurt in Iraq or Afghanistan. If anything many of the posters here would be cheering on the enemy.

Ok, you disagree with OWS, but seriously?! Are you that brainwashed that seeing your fellow americans getting beaten down for no reason doesn't matter to you anymore.

I'm not the one following a movement that has no direction and no goals. Only complaints. And then getting violent over them and whining when the cops try to put a stop to the lawlessness exemplified by OWS protesters.

There's a difference between disagreeing with a movement and not caring about unfair police action.

Indeed there is. And I never said I didn't care. To the contrary.

Does it really matter that he's a veteran. He's a human, citizen. He can be the lamest junkie in the world, the richest man, a veteran, or a 9 to 5 worker, none deserve to be beaten like that.

I don't think we've gotten the full story. We have one side. I will reserve judgement on whether the response was unfair or unjustified until all the facts are known.

Does it matter that he's a veteran? To OWS people looking to siphon off legitimacy for an illegitimate movement? Yes.

Now take your hatred and leave.

I don't hate anything and I will be going no where.

Good luck trying to shut me up. You wouldn't be the first one to try and fail.

reply to post by projectvxn


Keep generalizing and marginalizing the movement, you actually know very little about it. I've been there many times and I can tell you that what you are saying about OWS are lies/propaganda/generalizations/marginalization/misconception.

I'm not trying to shut you down, I'm trying to expose your ridicule agenda, such as your terrible generalization of the movement (that I have debunked with the Black Bloc video showing agent provocateurs being opposed by legitimate protesters).

It's clear you have an agenda...it's not like you're that good at hiding it.

EDIT: And I'm still waiting for your opinion on the Black Bloc video...seeing that you are ignoring the post. Tell me these are OWS protesters and you'll just look stupid.

reply to post by Gab1159

Keep generalizing and marginalizing the movement, you actually know very little about it. I've been there many times and I can tell you that what you are saying about OWS are lies/propaganda/generalizations/marginalization/misconception.

Please stop with this "you have an agenda" "You're being paid" type of paranoid garbage.

It's clear you have an agenda...it's not like you're that good at hiding it.

I have an OPINION and you're right, i'm not trying to hide it.

EDIT: And I'm still waiting for your opinion on the Black Bloc video...seeing that you are ignoring the post. Tell me these are OWS protesters and you'll just look stupid.

I'm not aware of who Black Bloc is.

But this is what Wiki has to say about them:

en.wikipedia.org...

A black bloc is a tactic for protests and marches, whereby individuals wear black clothing, scarves, ski masks, motorcycle helmets with padding or other face-concealing items and often carry some sort of shields and truncheons.[1][2] The clothing is used to avoid being identified, and to, theoretically, appear as one large mass, promoting solidarity.
The tactic was developed in the 1980s by autonomists protesting squatter evictions, nuclear power and restrictions on abortion among other things.[1] Black blocs gained broader media attention outside Europe during the 1999 anti-WTO demonstrations, when a black bloc damaged property of GAP, Starbucks, Old Navy, and other multinational retail locations in downtown Seattle.[1]
"The Black Bloc" is sometimes incorrectly reported as being the name of a specific anarchist group. It is, rather, a tactic that may be adopted by groups of various motivations and methods.[3]

There may be several black blocs within a particular protest, with different aims and tactics.[5] As an ad hoc group, they share no universally common set of principles or beliefs[5] apart from an adherence to–usually–radical left or autonomist values. A few radical right-wing groups, like some of the "autonomous nationalists" of Europe[6] or the Australian National-Anarchists[7] have adopted "black bloc" tactics and dress.

Interesting.

Please stop with this "you have an agenda" "You're being paid" type of paranoid garbage.

Never said you were being paid. Putting words into my mouth?

I'm not aware of who Black Bloc is. But this is what Wiki has to say about them: en.wikipedia.org...

A black bloc is a tactic for protests and marches, whereby individuals wear black clothing, scarves, ski masks, motorcycle helmets with padding or other face-concealing items and often carry some sort of shields and truncheons.[1][2] The clothing is used to avoid being identified, and to, theoretically, appear as one large mass, promoting solidarity. The tactic was developed in the 1980s by autonomists protesting squatter evictions, nuclear power and restrictions on abortion among other things.[1] Black blocs gained broader media attention outside Europe during the 1999 anti-WTO demonstrations, when a black bloc damaged property of GAP, Starbucks, Old Navy, and other multinational retail locations in downtown Seattle.[1] "The Black Bloc" is sometimes incorrectly reported as being the name of a specific anarchist group. It is, rather, a tactic that may be adopted by groups of various motivations and methods.[3]

There may be several black blocs within a particular protest, with different aims and tactics.[5] As an ad hoc group, they share no universally common set of principles or beliefs[5] apart from an adherence to–usually–radical left or autonomist values. A few radical right-wing groups, like some of the "autonomous nationalists" of Europe[6] or the Australian National-Anarchists[7] have adopted "black bloc" tactics and dress.

Interesting.


Thanks for the info. Black Bloc might not be a definitive group, though some Black Bloc leaders were identified and prosecuted in court here in Montreal. There was an underground network in Quebec.

So yeah, they show up at almost every single legitimate protests, and more often than not, they're the same individuals, seizing every opportunity to cause chaos.

Two parts really got my attention:

1)
"As an ad hoc group, they share no universally common set of principles or beliefs[5] apart from an adherence to–usually–radical left or autonomist values. A few radical right-wing groups, like some of the "autonomous nationalists" of Europe[6] or the Australian National-Anarchists[7] have adopted "black bloc" tactics and dress."

Read "right-wing groups" (isn't this supposed to be a leftist movement). Looks like sabotage here.

and 2)
"The Black Bloc" is sometimes incorrectly reported as being the name of a specific anarchist group. It is, rather, a tactic that may be adopted by groups of various motivations and methods.[3] There may be several black blocs within a particular protest, with different aims and tactics.

Read "different aims".

Anyways, truth is, these Black Bloc most probably don't care about the aims of OWS, and are there to either cause unnecessary trouble or discrediting the movement (which the latter seems to work on you).

What you have to realize is that, if you watched the video carefully, legitimate protesters were trying to stop these thugs from vandalizing the banks. Imo, it's clear enough that these black thugs had nothing to do with the protest or the cause. The news will tell us OWS vandalized banks, when in reality, maybe 20 Black Bloc supporters (or however you want to call them, independant thugs) came in and did it.

I'm not denying some legitimate OWS protesters are violent or vandalizing or defecating on police cars or whatever. This is true. What is untrue is what you are saying: that they do represent the movement.

What is 20 black thugs in a 20,000 protest? 0.1%, hardly representative.

And yes, this is a peaceful movement. As I told you, I've been to OWS many times and have witnessed their efforts at keeping it a peaceful movement. They have their own security council and comittee, and yes, they have troubles with some troublemakers some times. You can't expect a movement that big to NOT attract thugs.

So, thanks for these Black Bloc info, but really, it does not refutate what I was saying. A group or not, these people have different aims, different goals, and most importantly, don't have anything to do with the protest. If you believe so, why? Can you prove me these are legitimate OWS occupiers? I doubt it very much...

reply to post by Gab1159


You'll notice I wasn't TRYING to refute what you said.

I was glad to see OWS protesters trying to keep the peace.

Read "right-wing groups" (isn't this supposed to be a leftist movement). Looks like sabotage here.

You can't just lift that out like that.

This is what it actually said:

A few radical right-wing groups, like some of the "autonomous nationalists" of Europe[6] or the Australian National-Anarchists[7] have adopted "black bloc" tactics and dress.

European right wing and Australian right wing is VASTLY different than the right wing here. As a matter of fact, most of the "right wing" groups in Europe and elsewhere would be considered leftists by right wingers here.