I'll Make You A Believer

Originally posted by ArMaP
reply to post by Pimander

 

So, observations is (almost) all we have, but observations are limited by the observer's senses and their interpretation, right?

What can we do about it?

We look at all the data. Is there a common theme. In my opinion yes.

Is the sighting backed up by radar, photographs or video. Some of it is.

Originally posted by ArMaP
But if you can find any clear evidence of the presence of extraterrestrial intelligent beings on Earth, I will gladly look at it.

Which is exactly what a wave of metallic disks performing manoeuvres beyond the capability of any Earthly technology in the forties, coupled with eyewitness reports of humanoids and retrieved craft is. In my opinion.

There is ongoing work on a better presentation of that type of evidence....

P.S. Not sure about ET, but definitely intelligent life. Maybe time travellers, inter-dimensional beings, an advanced ancient Earth species or ET. Take your pick.

ETA: No amount of evidence will satisfy some people. They may have to wait for the handshake with our reluctant/shy aliens I guess.

Originally posted by Pimander

ETA: No amount of evidence will satisfy some people. They may have to wait for the handshake with our reluctant/shy aliens I guess.

But first they will ask for some I.D.

Originally posted by v1rtu0s0
By the way, who thinks the first video shows balloons?

Actually most skeptics at ATS were claiming CGI on that one It never was resolved and that thread set a record for flags and stars...

As for the missile in NM, seems the SyFy team was 100% positive that the film was indeed legit from White Sands... too bad they didn't let us know how they verified that... or did I miss it? "Escaped rocket motor" THAT was a good one but it might have been a missile or it might have been some other test craft. The trajectory lines they drew at one point were interesting as it definitely looked like it was trying to correct the flight path for a moment

reply to post by A51Watcher

Originally posted by A51Watcher

Originally posted by Pimander

ETA: No amount of evidence will satisfy some people. They may have to wait for the handshake with our reluctant/shy aliens I guess.

But first they will ask for some I.D.

That could be faked so wouldn't be acceptable as evidence. In fact you could ask for the proof the alien existed before turning up to the meeting. Where would that leave you?

I get the feeling that this isn't going to work....

Originally posted by zorgon
As for the missile in NM, seems the SyFy team was 100% positive that the film was indeed legit from White Sands... too bad they didn't let us know how they verified that... or did I miss it? "Escaped rocket motor" THAT was a good one

but it might have been a missile or it might have been some other test craft. The trajectory lines they drew at one point were interesting as it definitely looked like it was trying to correct the flight path for a moment

Good points but I was expecting to see film footage of a missile plume and no visible rocket. On their rocket footage you can clearly see the rocket which is surely smaller than one that would produce a plume the size of the NM footage.

How they verified the footage was NM would be nice to know. How else can what they say be checked out.

reply to post by ArMaP

I finally realize now
why it bothers me a little
you do not think there are "foreigners" in our airspace.
And by foreigners, I mean ET from other planets.

You

and the rest of the "innocents" (I will call you),

are holding disclosure up.

It occurred to me while I am watching some very odd light formations in the night sky I filmed myself. After all, why should I care what you think?

Did you ever hide on someone?

Once the person knows you are there- it is no fun and pointless to hide any longer.

As long as there are people (like you) who think every witness is delusional or mistaken - instead of admitting, there is something out there - they will continue to hide and try to fool us, protect our delicate sensibilities. We are like the kid who still believes in Santa. Who is going to take that first step and tell him other wise? We all have to show we are accepting of other life forms such as our self. Nobody wants to shatter anyone's delusions nor do they want to be totally rejected out of hand.


Story has it that even our governments tell the ET races visiting "EARTH HUMANS ARE NOT READY." and I am sure they roll the clips from War of the Worlds showing people jumping to their deaths to prove it. They tell them we would "PANIC" and no matter how well intentioned they (ET) would do 'more harm than good' by hosting a big reveal.

And yet, I think, if earthlings said in effect, collectively...
"we KNOW you are there - Now come out."

I think THEY would have to.

Why we saw a while back that thing going around the internet - "We wish that you would come."

I believe humans still dragging their heels are all these ET folks have left to fool
and they are trying their darnedest (and succeeding) to keep you hanging on to the dream.

Once you ALSO realize they are there and deal with them in earnest,they will not have anyone LEFT to put a show on for. They will begin to interact with our planet, one species to another. Right now (some) ET thinks it is going to frighten people like you into dropping dead of shock.

Now true or not this is my opinion, and as sure as you are about anything you cannot say for certain it is incorrect. You may go on about probabilities...that is all and even that would be assumption.

There is a strict religious dogma that is even abandoned by the Church of Rome these days that allows for only one intelligent creation - but most thinking people have dropped that too.

Given the mathematical formulations presented in the Drake equation and the relative ease with which life formed here on Earth there is more certainty other intelligent life exists in other locations than there is certainty it does not.

As I do not have to show you the four to know two and two make it - there is other intelligent life in the universe and in the galaxies and I do not have to prove that to you. People HAVE seen these intelligent beings and craft and I believe them. I believe them because it is logical and makes sense and by sheer probability they can't all be lying. I dont NOT believe them because I haven't seen it for myself.

I believe astronomers and yet I have never been to space.
IT MIGHT ALL BE CGI - unless you were there but we take the word of fellow humans. Astronomers could be a cult collecting a paycheck, but we believe in some instances even though we did not see it ourselves.

Intelligent life exists elsewhere and we have seen signs of visitation here on earth.

Instead of claiming all fellow humans are lying, inaccurate or delusional you should try and explain to me why in all probability and intelligent reckoning - intelligent life could NOT and has not formed elsewhere? Tell me what is so unique about us or what makes that impossible?


I know...it is not your job to prove a negative. I just don't think it is a negative. Somehow you have managed to make a lot of positives add up to one big negative but that doesn't work in my opinion, so here we are back to square one.


Since I have given up all hope of reason and gentle persuasion, must take the liberty to say, referencing you to ET...

"Come anyway. I know he'll be OK with it. "

Originally posted by Pimander

Originally posted by zorgon
As for the missile in NM, seems the SyFy team was 100% positive that the film was indeed legit from White Sands... too bad they didn't let us know how they verified that... or did I miss it? "Escaped rocket motor" THAT was a good one

but it might have been a missile or it might have been some other test craft. The trajectory lines they drew at one point were interesting as it definitely looked like it was trying to correct the flight path for a moment

Good points but I was expecting to see film footage of a missile plume and no visible rocket. On their rocket footage you can clearly see the rocket which is surely smaller than one that would produce a plume the size of the NM footage.

How they verified the footage was NM would be nice to know. How else can what they say be checked out.

That ones up in the air, but what about the other 100 photos/videos?

reply to post by newcovenant


I'm sorry, but I don't understand most of what you said.

I will only answer one thing (one of the few things I think I understood): I never said that all witnesses are lying, inaccurate or delusional, and never even talked about delusion. I only said that people can (and I'm sure we all know many examples) be mistaken, and that's one of the reasons why they are the weakest link and we should not (in my opinion) base a whole explanation on that.

Originally posted by ArMaP
reply to post by newcovenant

 

I'm sorry, but I don't understand most of what you said.

I will only answer one thing (one of the few things I think I understood): I never said that all witnesses are lying, inaccurate or delusional, and never even talked about delusion. I only said that people can (and I'm sure we all know many examples) be mistaken, and that's one of the reasons why they are the weakest link and we should not (in my opinion) base a whole explanation on that.

I get that a lot.

OK I guess all I was trying to say is

IF YOU ARE HIDING - ONCE EVERYONE KNOWS YOU ARE THERE - HIDING LOSES ITS APPEAL.

I am thinking it is possible ET is being coy because there are so many still skeptical.
No one of them wants to be the first to tell us " there is no Santa Clause" so to speak.

It is a long shot.

I apologize for suggesting you used the term delusional.
You did not.

I have been trying to find the source of the NM video.

Google Video Link

The Google Video above has the following information attached.

1997, New Mexico Desert. There are several of these crash videos floating around on the internet. This one originated from CSETI. It is purportedly from the deserts of New Mexico, USA. An unknown craft slams into the ground, and takes a bounce or two before final impact. It then disintegrates into a large shower of debris

SOURCE: video.google.com...

Apparently the information is false. I contacted CSETI for confirmation and received the following reply.

CSETI Info [email protected] Nov 2 (2 days ago) to me

 

no, this is not from CSETI -- it appears to be a crash of a classified test vehicle.

SOURCE: personal email communication to Pimander.

Does anyone have anything better that I can follow up?


ETA: Does anyone know what K1 symbol is? Is it a US TV network? That's the only lead I have at the moment and Google is offering me a kick boxing organisation so... Surely it can't be anything to do with NORAD and K1, which appears to be a monitoring station. See www.nicap.org...

reply to post by Pimander


Good research. On another note, does CSETI support the Mount Shasta incident where the orb communicates with the laser?

Originally posted by Kandinsky
reply to post by greyer

 

As for Dean, he served in the 60s and who knows what he was doing in the years before his arrival on the UFO scene? Guys like Kevin Randle have done due diligence and shown he's a steady supplier of false claims and fake documents.

It's a big question as to why he's a conman? The X-Cons have lost a fortune in the past 2-3 years, but I don't know what they (PRG) were paying speakers. Likewise I don't know how much, if anything, Project Camelot pay their guests. Not knowing these details makes it difficult to suggest financial incentive. Attention is a definite factor and maybe he likes playing an audience?

The parlour hucksters of the late 19th and early 20th Century made a little money, but guys like Houdini argued that some of them benefited more from perks like paid travel, hotels and the gifts of patrons. Dean could be in this category.

*If* there really are paid disinfo guys in the field, Dean would be a strong suspect imho. Where I tend to doubt that he's a paid disinfo person is in the scatterbrain incoherence of his stories. I think it more likely that he's just a huckster waiting for the opportunity for good score. In simple terms, he's probably a modern day snake-oil salesman.

This information leads me to believe that the stronghold in the gov. went to great attempts in order to put a lid on the origin of the saucer mystery in the late 40s, throughout the 50s and 60s. A theory can be they act like aliens in the present day in total secret for power. If humans by themselves made enough technology to base the moon and travel across our solar system it would be a wise attempt to make the world believe in green men (and they did a great job at it because from my cases the people affected were the ones who had beliefs, the people in control just diverted attention). If humans had help from aliens they would also keep it secret for power. If aliens were real and they did what was recorded in history the powers would keep it a secret because they cannot admit to our planet being invaded and not able to control it.

I think there is another category because those who just want money. Charles Hall, a man who displays every intention of a saleman for his books actually has a story that pans out, crazy but believable. A.J. Gevaerd is a good example of a person who works with the government, has full knowledge of aliens, has been given permission to release information, but is still a disinformation agent. Captain Hollanda's best friend said that he knew the captain would never put something around his neck and commit suicide. The researchers of Brazil came to believe the Captain was murdered. When is everybody going to wake up and see that when a person goes on record about having involvement in something secret like aliens and they are ruled a suicide shortly after that it is not a suicide. A.J. wouldn't wake up to that on record, so like Dean I think he is working with those who know the real story.

Originally posted by v1rtu0s0
reply to post by Pimander

 

Good research. On another note, does CSETI support the Mount Shasta incident where the orb communicates with the laser?

edit on 5-11-2011 by v1rtu0s0 because: (no reason given)

Here is the latest report by CSETI on Mt Shasta. It was broadcast on September 9th, 2011 on the Puja radio network. I haven't listened to it so don't know whether it has the information you want or not.



If I want more info on that NM footage do I really have to start a thread. Anyone?

I thought there were lots of experienced enthusiasts on this site. Lots of "experts" none of whom seem to be able to bloody well help.

reply to post by Pimander


You are from the UK....I like the UK. So....I will give you this advice. Don't waste time and effort on trying to either make people believe in the REALITY OF E.T. Don't waste time screaming to the heavens that there is a coverup and the People have a RIGHT TO KNOW. And above all....don't continually allow yourself to be documented as a petition signer or MUFON or the like Member or Full Disclosure Protester.

The reason I say this is....there is a system in place....a very advanced....well thought out and developed over time system that sole purpose is to keep a secret that really is not a secret....secret.....by making those who are active in it's disclosure....by many means....look like fools or unstable....or worse.....mentaly incompetent.

It is very well known that something as inocuous as an individual doing something as innocent and legal as signing up on a MUFON type list....to have this information inexplicably sent....via many channels...now days...E-mail....to the company or people they work for....to friends or relatives....or anyone or entity that would cause either embarrasment or questions of a persons work abilities.

This usually only occurs in high profile incidents but with the computer age....a tiny slip can allow an e-mail intended to be sent to one person or group....to be sent to a persons entire mailing list.

E.T. is a reality....disclosure will not occur for a VERY LONG TIME. There are considerations for this extreme secrecy....beyond just keeping advanced tech. secret. It is a beyond complex situation. Split Infinity

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Pimander

 

You are from the UK....I like the UK. So....I will give you this advice. Don't waste time and effort on trying to either make people believe in the REALITY OF E.T. Don't waste time screaming to the heavens that there is a coverup and the People have a RIGHT TO KNOW. And above all....don't continually allow yourself to be documented as a petition signer or MUFON or the like Member or Full Disclosure Protester.

You don't think I work for CSETI or something do you? I don't BTW. I think you only have a right to know if you can ask the right questions or see through the BS. That does apply to some people on here IMHO. I'm not sure whether full disclosure is desirable nor do I believe that it is likely to happen.

A lot of what I do is for personal reasons. I know stuff...

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
The reason I say this is....there is a system in place....a very advanced....well thought out and developed over time system that sole purpose is to keep a secret that really is not a secret....secret.....by making those who are active in it's disclosure....by many means....look like fools or unstable....or worse.....mentaly incompetent.

It is very well known that something as inocuous as an individual doing something as innocent and legal as signing up on a MUFON type list....to have this information inexplicably sent....via many channels...now days...E-mail....to the company or people they work for....to friends or relatives....or anyone or entity that would cause either embarrasment or questions of a persons work abilities.

This usually only occurs in high profile incidents but with the computer age....a tiny slip can allow an e-mail intended to be sent to one person or group....to be sent to a persons entire mailing list.

None of that is news to me but I do appreciate your concern.

“To ask a question is a shame of a moment. Not to ask the question is a shame (regret) that lasts for your whole (eternal) life.” Japanese Proverb

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
E.T. is a reality....disclosure will not occur for a VERY LONG TIME. There are considerations for this extreme secrecy....beyond just keeping advanced tech. secret. It is a beyond complex situation. Split Infinity

I agree that it is complex. If only the future was that predictable. You might be right but who knows....

reply to post by Pimander


No....I didn't assume you worked for them or was I thinking anything of that nature. I hope you don't think I am trying to dictate what you should do....I just wanted to pass along something I know about very well.

The Japs have always been a source of infinite bits of wisdom....SUN TZU....I believe....would have very little to say....if he was given even a glimer of the picture. Split Infinity

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
I hope you don't think I am trying to dictate what you should do....I just wanted to pass along something I know about very well.

Don't worry about it, I don't think you are.

Have you noticed what I have become very aware of? Please don't post your answer...

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
The Japs have always been a source of infinite bits of wisdom....SUN TZU....I believe....would have very little to say....if he was given even a glimer of the picture. Split Infinity

"Those you talk, know nothing, those who know say nothing" ~ L.TZU

So said L.Tzu. Therefore, using his own logic, he must know nothing...

Think about it.

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Pimander

 

No....I didn't assume you worked for them or was I thinking anything of that nature. I hope you don't think I am trying to dictate what you should do....I just wanted to pass along something I know about very well.

The Japs have always been a source of infinite bits of wisdom....SUN TZU....I believe....would have very little to say....if he was given even a glimer of the picture. Split Infinity

Hmm, some Sun Tzu quotes... which ones are most applicable to the ET situation? (BTW he's Chinese, not Japanese)

All warfare is based on deception.

It is essential to seek out enemy agents who have come to conduct espionage against you and to bribe them to serve you. Give them instructions and care for them. Thus doubled agents are recruited and used.

It is only the enlightened ruler and the wise general who will use the highest intelligence of the army for the purposes of spying, and thereby they achieve great results

If ignorant both of your enemy and yourself, you are certain to be in peril.

Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance.

Secret operations are essential in war; upon them the army relies to make its every move.

The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.

Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate.

All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.

Engage people with what they expect; it is what they are able to discern and confirms their projections. It settles them into predictable patterns of response, occupying their minds while you wait for the extraordinary moment — that which they cannot anticipate.

If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.

Originally posted by Pimander
"Those you talk, know nothing, those who know say nothing" ~ L.TZU

So said L.Tzu. Therefore, using his own logic, he must know nothing...

Think about it.

I was actually quoting Lao Tzu. More correctly pronounced Lao Tse. I was trying to point out that even legendary Eastern philosophers may not necessarily want us to take their advice literally.

reply to post by Pimander


Would that then logically not apply to ALL whistle blowers?