Huge Mistakes Being Made By OWS

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by beezzer

 

Whether a person agrees with the Tea Party or not, an honest person must admit they did it right. They have people in office. Their events were carefully organized, peaceful, legal and they had a clear message.

If things actually change then yes. I have a feeling that they won't though.

Only time will tell.

Their message is being heard loud and clear (Plenty of signs that state the many messages). It is the corrupt MSM in league with the very ones that are being protested that try and confuse and take over the movement. Only real change (not pocket change) will end the protests.

reply to post by vatel


We, if you are in the US, are in the country that currently has the most freedom. The answer I see is not to tear it apart, but to improve it.

Right now we are torn apart by two demonstrably corrupt political parties who use whatever they can to divide us to keep power. One is no worse or no better than the other. Neither has been able to make the changes we need.

Also what is freedom? Is the right to do whatever you want no matter how it impacts others? Or is it a system where we are free as long as we don't infringe on others freedom?

Do we send the right message by blocking bridges and stomping all over other peoples right to go about their own business, or by trashing property and not cleaning it up after, dumping that responsibility on others? Those are just a couple of issues that hold this back and make it not credible.

We clearly need more people involved in these activities. We don't need for instance the OWS criticizing the Tea Party. Nor do we need the Tea Party criticizing the OWS. They seem to share goals and I hear there are in fact Tea Partiers participating. We want real change, we need to come together. We want more freedom, we need to come together. Anything else is more of the same and allows the divide to control Democratic and Republican Parties to call all the shots.

I think the OWS is not much right now, but its what it could be, which is a nation coming together to say no more.

reply to post by Mr. D


No, its a mass of disparate messages, all drowning each other out. That is what it really is.

reply to post by daskakik


It's up to those involved to make it into something meaningful or let it continue to be a disorganized mess that other groups can easily take over.

Watch this thread if it continues and you will see people from the groups trying to take it over, who want it this way attack my simple, supportive message.

I complain about individual behavior, but I'm all for peaceful protest that has a message and meaning, that is non-violent and wants to make the country better instead of tearing it apart. Those wishing to tear it apart are always part of the problem, not the solution.

Wisdom dictates you keep what is good and fix what is bad. Anything else is radical nonsense from irrational people.

reply to post by Blaine91555


did you read ?
about hegelian move ?
A Start about Hegel

reply to post by Blaine91555


I meant what the Tea Party actually accomplished. Getting seats in congress looks good but will it actually bring about change or will those that were elected just end up being politicians after all?

reply to post by vatel


Have patience. I'm going through that now. I have other things going on today.

reply to post by vatel


I'll have to leave it at this. The fruits of communism demonstrate the true nature of communism as opposed to the theoretical that leaves out the human equation.

What works must always take into account more than the theoretical. What happens when a nation adopts an ideology is the truth. Marxism and Communism fail for a reason. We are Human.

Intellectually of course it makes sense, but does it work? No it never seems to work. It may work on a tiny population under controlled conditions but not in the real world. We live in the real world. A world where some are motivated, some are lazy and some are crazy. We live in a world where evil men exist. Where people will find a way to take advantage of any ideology and use it in bad ways. We do not live in a hypothetical world, the world the intellectuals live in. (I hate that term intellectuals, because some of the stupidest people on the planet have high IQ's and lots of education while possessing not a clue about the true human condition.)

If we were a bunch of lab rats under controlled conditions, the Marxist and Communist ideas might work but we are not. Those ideas will always lead to the brutality that comes from trying to force behavior to match the theory.

By necessity the concept of Marxists and Communists can only exist in the absence of freedom. Without any reason to excel and lacking any reward for success, we turn into a lethargic mass of apathy.

reply to post by Blaine91555


so what is your concept ?
no lab rats, free humans and free spirit ?

reply to post by daskakik


Yes it has already brought about change. It changed the dialogue and stuck a huge monkey wrench in the gearbox. That is evidenced by how scared the current administration became in the face of it. They immediately attacked it and attacked violently, even resorting to lies and name calling to try and tear it apart.

All that from a simple easy to understand message. They want smaller, better managed government and more opportunity with less obstacles in the way. That is a message people can attach themselves too. It's so strong that the status quo had to resort to sick things like calling them Racist or Nazi's.

If OWS wants to have a real impact they need to learn. Most of all thought they must not allow radicals with tiny followings to take it away, or allow one of the political parties take them over, which is the mistake the Tea Party needs to correct in their movement. They also need to stand up and say without lack of clarity, we are not part of either Party nor are we happy with either Party.

If genuine Independents with good ideas are ever to defeat the big two, there must be groundswell of support. Tiny groups of irrational radicals yelling loudly will never accomplish anything. What they want is worse than what we already have. We need to fix this car, not take a sledge hammer to it. A new car might be exotic and shiny and pretty now, but 50 years from now a restored classic will still have infinitely more value.

reply to post by vatel


What we are lucky enough to have right now, only better. We are on the right track, we just allowed bad leaders to take us over through corrupt political parties.

If you want specifics?

Take money out of politics and running for office. A child could come up with a way to do that. I suggest that a system be developed that allows anyone to run with an equal chance.

Clean up the courts. If a Judge legislates from the bench, impeach them immediately.

Term limits to stop dynasties from being formed. To make it so an elected leader can spend their time doing their jobs instead of campaigning.

Stop giving tiny radical groups the power to influence our leaders, again because they must campaign for half their term in office and cower to these nuts.

Send power back to local governments so each community can make more decisions for themselves.

Clean up the education system and get rid of radicals who are using the schools to brainwash children instead of teaching them how to think for themselves.

Realize that political correctness is a false premise used to control people, not to make their lives better. PC is the antithesis of freedom.

Treat people equally and stop giving special rights to some over others.

Clean up the legal system and stop letting dangerous people go free while housing people who need treatment in with real criminals. Face the truth that we have gone to far in this mad dash to make a law about every little aspect of lives. Let us make our own life choices as long as we don't infringe on others freedoms.

That's a start.

Even if OWS is totally co-opted by the corrupt left and spirals off into insignificance or simply dwindles away, the anger the people are feeling is NOT going to go away unless there are some real changes to how the System works. This isn't "just like the early 80s" or "just like the 70s" ... those recessions were shallower, shorter, and the rot was less fundamental...the US still had a better economic base to draw on for example...the grievences this time are a lot more real. A lot of people are at or support the protests because they are at the end of their own roads, they have nowhere left to go!!. You think they are gonna just vanish into the wind? We are talking smart, hardworking people who played by the rules and now see themselves locked outside of any kind of future. The economy is producing more and more of them every day, too! Something's got to give; read some history and pray!

reply to post by Blaine91555


I disagree that it has actually caused any change. At least not yet.

You know the illusion that the system can be changed from the inside has been a carrot dangled in front of the citizens for a long time. Election after election the voters turn out to get things changed and time after time things seem to remain the same.

reply to post by Blaine91555


I do think that they need to condense their demands down to 2 or 3 specific issues and then find a way to package them in a way that everyone can understand and relate to;

e.g., "the corporate world exercises too much control over the government"

e.g., “the fed is more powerful than the government.”
In these two examples there is a description of the problem, and contained in the statement is obvious remedy. This makes these two messages easy for the masses to understand and relate to and it makes it easy for them to know and agree on a remedy for the problem.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
Due to the fact the movement has no clear message

reply to post by Blaine91555


Your posts always seem to come not from the far right or left, but from the ELITIST perspective.

So, blaine, what is your suggestion? Everyones doing it wrong. Do we just accept the status quo like we always do... or, for the FIRST TIME IN HUMAN HISTORY, does the WORLD protest injustices?

reply to post by Blaine91555


The biggest mistake I see them making is the fact they are trying to undermine our form of government instead of clean out the criminals who have hi-jacked our form of government. They are either part of TPTB bought and paid for by TPTB or support in theory TPTB. If not then they need to make a loud and obvious statement they are not there to re-elect Obama. They are not there to push his agenda. That in and of its self has discredited everything they claim they are protesting. Obama is Wallstreet. If they are not by the large part out there for Wallstreet then they are making the same mistake the Muslims get accused of. If they aren't radicals and don't agree with the radicals agenda why are they remaining silent and allowing themselves to be cast into the lot. Same way with OWS if they are not part of the problem at this moment by their silence they definitely not part of the solution.

reply to post by Blaine91555


All excellent ideas. So, how do we get the bought and paid for reps ( both parties, BTW) in Congress to agree to legislate all these overhauls? All of a sudden, it's not so easy is it? Hence the "unfocused" OWS protests. The moneyed interests need to be shown that they are not the majority, and never have been. The 99% have allowed them the largesse they seem to feel they're entitled to. It's high time to take that illusion back.

reply to post by acmpnsfal


Actually we are agreeing here. What comes of the OWS depends on where it goes from here. Strangely enough, they may end up at the same place and merge.