Biodiesel. Why dont we use it?

reply to post by Nightstalker44

Biodiesel. Why dont we use it?

Because it actually takes more energy to CREATE biodiesel, than the biodiesal contains.

Thus, the biodeisal is only useful if you are ALREADY making it for some other purpose, and then disposing of it (as in the case of the cars running off of the restaurant oil)

Biodiesel needs a lot of biomass, very few nations has the biomass required to produce the fuels needed to replace the oil. Also most types of biodiesel has very poor EROEI (Energy return on energy invested) this means they will get very expensive and have low production volumes.

So So sad!

Probably one of the most important videos ever posted on ATS because it affects us, mankind, our planets future and the future of our children.

Yet it passes under the ATS radar without either a star or a flag besides the ones that I shall award.

Ok it's a long video granted, but by some of the above comments alone it is clear that most never even viewed the documentary before posted comments that in my view are misguided and ingnorant to a large extent.

Not all bio fuels "Rape the soil", not all biofuels use more energy to convert than they produce and not all bio fuels impact on the planets food production abilities. The bad press fuelled by the petroleum companies relates to deforestation wherby poorer countries took the choice to fell vast areas of rainforest in order to grow bio crops. This is not the only option available and if people watched the video and researched the facts the answers are obvious.

The simple fact is that the worlds oil reserves are not sustainable, they will run dry one day in the not so far off future.
The generations to come face a massive problem and generations now are trying to deal with this with alternative fuels.

I could go on and on but I will choose to simply encourage you to watch the video, do a little research and make an informed decision rather than following blanket negative views.

The World has to act, not only to save our planet but to save our future and our governments who remain embroiled in the finacial juggernaut of the corrupt oil industries, backhanders and influential policies that reward themselves but destroy living life in the process.

Originally posted by christina-66
Food shortages are caused by bio fuel production due to the amount of land that has to be turned over for its production.

Wrong. There are vast areas of unused land that can be used to grow bio crops across the world that would have no impact whatsover on food production.
Problems arose when food crop farmers decided to swith from growing food crops to bio crops as it was more profitable. That was due to the choice of individual farmers. Bio crops don't cause food shortages, human actions and greed for money do.

Bio Algae on the other hand doesn't even need to be grown on soil at all.

Originally posted by Misterlondon

Originally posted by Nightstalker44
reply to post by christina-66

 

Wouldn't that be less of a problem then pollution? There could be biodiesel farms.

its a great idea but in reality it wouldnt work.. the amount of farms needed to supply the amount of vehicles we have would be unbelievable.. in a world full of food shortages it wouldnt be ethical..

anyway we can make vehicles that run on water but the big oil companies wont allow it to happen, they only allow solutions which are not really feesable..

Have you watched the video?

If you had you would understand that not all biofuels are grown on farms or productive arable land. The amount of bio fuels produced could easily fuel a countries needs so how is this unethical?

Originally posted by ErtaiNaGia
reply to post by Nightstalker44

 

Biodiesel. Why dont we use it?

Because it actually takes more energy to CREATE biodiesel, than the biodiesal contains.

Thus, the biodeisal is only useful if you are ALREADY making it for some other purpose, and then disposing of it (as in the case of the cars running off of the restaurant oil)

Petrochemicals use a lot more energy to create fuel than what is produced. Certain biofuels actually create more energy than they take to produce, up to 3 times more.

A total contradiction to your statement I'm afraid.

I do use it in the festival van (Ford Transit converted into camper), i get the oil from the chippy round the corner.

Takes a while to warm up/start, creates a bit of white smoke from the exhaust, but runs like a charm...

reply to post by Nightstalker44


because the Ethanol lobby and the Diesel Fuel refinery have got a lock on the Congress

biodiesel will become prominent once a well heeled lobby greases enough palms... regardless of the inefficiencies, drawbacks, hurdles, that seem to multiply whenever biodiesel is brought up

a new infrastructure might be needed, but thats where the palm greasing come into play

Originally posted by studio500
So So sad!
....

I am afraid you don't know what you are talking about. The largest US production of biodiesel by BTU was in 2008: 87 trillion BTU.

www.eia.gov...

In 2010, tranportation energy production by BTU ("flow" in this case and nearly all oil derived) was 27,000 trillion BTU:

www.eia.gov...

In 2010, biodiesel accounted for a whopping 0.14% of transportation fuels - measured by BTU. In other words biodiesel makes up one-tenth of one percent all transportation energy. You realize how many farms dedicated toward growing biodiesel crops would be needed to reach 1%? Or 10%? I don't know, but intuitively I can understand that it will never happen.

Intuitively I can understand that attempting to totally replace gasoline, kerosene and diesel with biodiesel would probably take every farm in America and then some. I don't know about you but I would rather eat food and not kill our top soil trying to achieve such a pipe dream. Even major oil company executives say they aren't scared of biodiesel or ethanol because they are mere drops in the bucket.

I don't mean to be harsh but you should look at the data before watching youtube videos and coming to a conclusion about why biodiesel is not presently used on a large scale.

reply to post by studio500

Wrong. Food does get used for bio-fuel purposes because corporations will pay a slightly higher price than a food producer. As a poor farmer trying to make ends meet, you will take that higher price, possibly without even knowing where that food is going. Do you know how many people are starving in the world?

reply to post by studio500

Wrong. Food, on average uses 10 calories of petro-chemical "energy" (fertilisers, tractors, et al) to produce just one calorie of food value.
ETA Forgot transport costs.



ETA 2 Examples... Mint from Israel, grapes from chili, roses from Zimbabwe. All for sale and more at my local supermarket whereas all those products and more can be grown locally. But who wants cheap produce, right?


ETA3 Try watching a few docu's. Food, Inc. is a good place to start.
www.imdb.com...

I have skimmed this thread, and noticed that people are against bio diesel, because it ruins topsoil, and cuts into food production.

Rudolph diesel invented his motor to run on bio diesel...he himself ran it on biodiesel made from hemp. I hope i am not breaking any T&C, because i believe this is something everyone overlooks, and should be examined much closer...forget any of the drug properties associated with the female plant, i am talking the male plant, the one with tons of industrial uses.

People are saying we have an oil crisis, and trying to promote ethanol blends, and hydrogen. I still want food, and we don't have infrastructure for hydrogen, would probably take years to implement.

I believe that the world needs to seriously look at hemp as a valid substitute... It can be grown in marginal soil, is more productive than using corn, could put thousands of people to work, solve the oil problem, and let us steer this ship into bigger problems...

biomass for energy

reply to post by Jrosh

Hemp could actually save the planet due to its many properties (non-drug value) but I think most places require a license to grow it. As an interesting aside it is one of the plants they planted near Chernobyl to clean up the radiation in the ground. Phytoremediation.

Originally posted by LightSpeedDriver
reply to post by Jrosh

 

Hemp could actually save the planet due to its many properties (non-drug value) but I think most places require a license to grow it.

We can thank dupont corporation for that one...but yes i believe it could save the planet...which is why i advocate for it, and think we should further examine the laws governing it as a whole. The benefits far outweigh any negatives, and i think fuel/oil is very possibly the best place to start.

Biodiesel is a mixed blessing. It's extremely caustic so if your engine does not have the requisite tough tubes to convey it, it will eat through them. Also, it is not good if the weather turns cold. It gels up, contaminating yiour entire fuel system. If it gets 32F or below you're in serious trouble.

I know because it happened to me. I have a Silverado Duramax Diesel where I used to run biodiesel. I even have a 200 gallon tank in my garage that was full of bio-diesel, along with a couple of diesel generators. Now it's full of normal diesel. When I went through an unexpected snow storm one year the fuel gelled. You should have seen the fuel filter itself. It was clogged with a viscous sticky muck. Luckily ot did no permanent damage.

Another issue today, still, is thet biodiesel is still more expensive than regular diesel, and that's with a government subsidy of $1.00 per gallon. Mine was always made of soybean oil, though you can make it from pretty much any oil. You've got the problem of taking aerable acerage away from foodstuffs to grow bio. There have been some promising experiments making it from algae, but as far as I know it isn't widely available.

So, yeah, "we" do use it, but it really isn't ready for prime time and even now, it's viable only with a subsidy.

Originally posted by schuyler
Biodiesel is a mixed blessing. It's extremely caustic so if your engine does not have the requisite tough tubes to convey it, it will eat through them. Also, it is not good if the weather turns cold. It gels up, contaminating yiour entire fuel system. If it gets 32F or below you're in serious trouble.

There are ways around everything....most diesel trucks that sit overnight won't start from october to march if they are not plugged in where i live, if they can heat the block, they can heat the fuel oil.

Originally posted by schuyler
Another issue today, still, is thet biodiesel is still more expensive than regular diesel, and that's with a government subsidy of $1.00 per gallon. Mine was always made of soybean oil, though you can make it from pretty much any oil. You've got the problem of taking aerable acerage away from foodstuffs to grow bio. There have been some promising experiments making it from algae, but as far as I know it isn't widely available.

I am sure the high cost comes from using less than adequate products for non conventional uses (read using food for fuel) because the best product to use is illegal to grow, and legal to import making the cost of it high (no pun intended)
from this website they state:

It would only take 6% of our U.S. land to produce enough hemp, for hemp fuel, to make us energy independent from the rest of the world. (I agree, a hard-to-believe stat.)

Cornell University study says no to biofuels - ignores hemp. In July 2005, Cornell University published a study saying that it is not economical to produce ethanol or biodiesel from corn and other crops. The study confirmed what other studies have shown in the past. The vegetable sources that are currently (legally) available are insuficient. Hemp is the only proven source for economical biomass fuels, a biomass source which was completely ignored by the Cornell study. HEMP IS THE NUMBER ONE biomass producer on planet earth: 10 tons per acre in approximately four months. It is a woody plant containing 77% cellulose. Wood produces 60% cellulose. This energy crop can be harvested with equipment readily available. It can be "cubed" by modifying hay cubing equipment. This method condenses the bulk, reducing trucking costs from the field to the pyrolysis reactor. And the biomass cubes are ready for conversion with no further treatment. Hemp is drought resistant, making it an ideal crop in the dry western regions of the country. Hemp is the only biomass resource capable of making America energy independent. And our government outlawed it in 1938...

Originally posted by Jrosh

Originally posted by schuyler
Biodiesel is a mixed blessing. It's extremely caustic so if your engine does not have the requisite tough tubes to convey it, it will eat through them. Also, it is not good if the weather turns cold. It gels up, contaminating yiour entire fuel system. If it gets 32F or below you're in serious trouble.

There are ways around everything....most diesel trucks that sit overnight won't start from october to march if they are not plugged in where i live, if they can heat the block, they can heat the fuel oil.

Actually they cannot. This is a very good example of theory vs practice, someone's idea of what should work as opposed to real world examples of what does work. I'm the one who has actually USED biodiesel, not just contemplated it. You don't drive around with a heater plugged into your engine. The heater you mention is for when the truck is PARKED. If you encounter 32F weather while riding around for any length of time, the fuel will gel.

Further, the fuel stays in a fuel tank which covers pretty much the entire size of the bed. Fuel is sucked into the engine via a very narrow tube by the fuel pump. It passes through a fuel filter the size of an oil filter before it gets to the engine. Your engine block heater does NOT heat the fuel line, the fuel pump, or the fuel filter, and THIS is where the fuel is most vulnerable to gelling. Your solution does not work and it is not a way around anything.

When you have actually used biodiesel through a winter where you are located, then come back and let's talk. Until then you really don't have the experience to know what you are talking about.

Originally posted by schuyler

When you have actually used biodiesel through a winter where you are located, then come back and let's talk. Until then you really don't have the experience to know what you are talking about.

Point taken...however it would not be hard to install a fuel heating system, could be done through an egr system bypassing those air to water coolers they are having problems with...or use engine coolant to keep heat in it, insulate the tank...

I am fairly mechanically inclined. I have been told a few times something can't be done; and so far that has not been true (you should see my home built turbo car, its supposed to blow up with the compression i run) if someone wanted to make this feasible on a big 3 scale, money and research would be done to properly use the fuel oil.

The problem you've had with your experience is you are trying to use a fuel that works just fine (how did your truck run on it in warm temperatures) in a system that isn't designed for it. With a whole crap load of emissions devices in your way as well.

So, unless you completely redid your fuel system with the design intent of using biomass based fuel, then i will concede; however, if you have not, then your experience is not arguable.

Originally posted by Nightstalker44
I am currently watching a 2 hour movie on youtube right now. Called "Fuel"

And i was also wondering why are government isn't doing anything, we only have 1 planet, and obviously they are not getting that.

The government is doing something they are buying up a lot of biodiesel for there own use.

The military base i live outside of (China Lake) uses biodeisel in there equipment.
but they have a a number of problems with this fuel.(my brother works as a diesel mechanic there and has to fix the equipment)

Oh by the way biodiesel can be made from other then vegetable oil and still called biodiesel
If you made diesel fuel using wood or any other plant material of any type using the Fischer–Tropsch process it to could be called biodiesel.
Also diesel made from algae can also be called biodiesel.

reply to post by Nightstalker44


Theres a little filling station 7miles from me sells biodiesel at 99p per litre,compared to 1.40 a litre at the pump for dino juice,its the huge oilcompanies stopping things like this,the equipment can be bought legally in the uk for around 2k depending on how large a scale you plan to produce.