NYC Cops stand around and WATCH man stabbing homeless man in the neck repeatedly

reply to post by areyouserious2010


Our Police are trained in disarming people and remaining calm and focused during situations such as these. When the footage began, the police were already standing there. The length of time is not important, because any length of time was too long. Those "15-20 seconds" as you so called it could very well have been the last seconds of that gentleman's life.
Being a former instructor in police defense and disarming tactics, I can tell you that they could, nay should have had the assailant off of the victim in an instant, the weapon removed from his hand, and his wrists clapped in cuffs before the camera ever got a chance to turn on. The fact that it didn’t go down that way is a failure on their part, and yet again, another black mark on the NYPDs declining reputation.

reply to post by AllUrChips

and what appraisal of the officers did I give?

This is from your first post to start the thread:

This is such a disgusting depiction of the people who are supposed to protect and serve us! What kind of people are being hired as officers anymore?

That sounds like an appraisal to me. And what you are saying now sounds like backstepping.

Also, why do I need to provide proof of helping someone out in need. Thats not whats at issue here anyhow?

Its and issue because you are entering it as proof of your point. Which requires validation. I said if it really happened then it is commendable but if you want to use it as proof of your point then you must show some evidence. Hey you brought it up not me. I am merely using rational thought and reason to show that your appraisal of the situation is irrational and unreasonable not story telling with no evidence.

What is your answer to my question now? Would you or would you not say that the police had reasonable time to intervene(not shooting him)and that they probably should have at the very least maybe pulled the guy off several seconds earlier than they did?

Exactly. We are talking about a few seconds which is not an inordinate amount of time to ensure that you are taking the most appropriate and safest course of action for all involved. Acting any more hastily would have meant shooting the guy or going hands on with a guy who has a knife alone. Which are both wrong answers.

How can you condone that unless maybe your a dirty cop as well?

Dirty cop would refer to a police officer who engages in misconduct like taking bribes or committing crimes themselves and would not apply to the actions of the police in this video if you believe they were inappropriate. Maybe cowardly cop. Or cop who is derelict of his duty. Not a dirty cop.

But no, I am not a dirty cop.

reply to post by FugitiveSoul

Our Police are trained in disarming people

If you are living in the United States, no they are not. Police officers in the United States are trained to use one force level above the force of the resistance. Which means if the suspect is using a potentially lethal weapon against them or someone else, lethal force is authorized. No police officer in the United States is trained in disarming someone. Thats because this is not a movie or television.

and remaining calm and focused during situations such as these.

All I saw were calm and focused police officers. Not one was running around screaming what should be done and generally freaking out.

When the footage began, the police were already standing there.

One. Who realized that shooting the guy was the wrong answer. Which is evidenced by the officer not shooting the guy. Then the second cop shows up and they take action.

The length of time is not important, because any length of time was too long. Those "15-20 seconds" as you so called it could very well have been the last seconds of that gentleman's life.

It absolutely does matter. So what you are arguing for is as soon as the first officer got there he should have gone hands on with the guy who had a knife? Then we could have been talking about not only a seriously injured or dead victim, but a seriously injured or dead cop. The point of the police is to end the situation not blindly and hastily jump into a situation and possibly create another victim.

Being a former instructor in police defense and disarming tactics, I can tell you that they could, nay should have had the assailant off of the victim in an instant, the weapon removed from his hand, and his wrists clapped in cuffs before the camera ever got a chance to turn on. The fact that it didn’t go down that way is a failure on their part, and yet again, another black mark on the NYPDs declining reputation.

Here is another one. Can you prove what you claim? Or do I have to give the story of how I punched Hitler in the face while saving 10 babies story?

You absolutely could not have been a defensive tactics instructor for ANY police department in the United States if you are arguing that the single police officer should have immediately gone hands on with the suspect armed with a knife. If the officer was alone, before going hands on, his best course of action would have been to kneel next to the suspect put the gun up to his head and attempt to angle the shot into the car next to him and not down into the victim. In no circumstance would it have been an appropriate course of action to go hands on with the guy armed with a knife.

wow you sure think you are a psychologist but you havent a clue what you are really talking about. You sure do know your way around the copy and paste features though. Backpeddling? Not hardly just dont have the time nor the want to justify my story to you as again, that is not the point.

reply to post by AllUrChips

wow you sure think you are a psychologist but you havent a clue what you are really talking about.

No, I do not think I am a psychologist. Words like irrational, and unreasonable have nothing to do with psychology. I have every idea what you are talking about. I just think it is irrational, unreasonable and may stem from some sort of predisposition towards finding fault in everything the police do. So I disagree.

You sure do know your way around the copy and paste features though.

When one is wrong, it is very easy to use one's own words against them. This is shown when I quote your own words for everyone to see and show where they are wrong. Do you not like seeing your own words posted back at you?

Backpeddling?

Yes, thank you. That was the word I was looking for. And yes it does appear you are backpeddling because you said:

and what appraisal of the officers did I give?

when you clearly gave the appraisal of:

This is such a disgusting depiction of the people who are supposed to protect and serve us! What kind of people are being hired as officers anymore?

in the first sentance of your first post.

Not hardly just dont have the time nor the want to justify my story to you as again, that is not the point.

Then what is your point? A point that is unjustifiable or indefensible is not worth making. So this entire thread is pointless? This is not "start a thread and expect it to go unchallenged." Here on ATS we like to debate and point out where people are wrong. If you do not have the time or the want to justify what you say, then keep it to yourself because as soon as you post it it is subject to scrutiny. If your argument can stand on its own then it will. If not, prepare to defend it or it will not last long.

reply to post by areyouserious2010


I guess, in all of your quoting, you missed the part where "I trained Police Officers in disarming assailants", so your opinion of them not being trained in such fair is null.
You are right that the Officers were calm. What you are not right about is in regards to their "focus." Within an instant of watching the clip I'd already mentally established three tactics at which they could have removed the assailant from the victim without the use of a firearm. The fact that the officer even had his hand on his gun is a testament to how far police training has fallen to the wayside. Too many Peace Officers are dependent on tools for solving situations, which is why unarmed people are shot, tased, and maced everyday without restraint. That cop's last thought should of been about grabbing his sidearm.

I wash my hands of this thread. You've trolled it long enough, and I can no longer entertain you in this matter.

~FugitiveSoul

reply to post by FugitiveSoul

I guess, in all of your quoting, you missed the part where "I trained Police Officers in disarming assailants", so your opinion of them not being trained in such fair is null.

Attempting to physically disarm the individual is unreasonable. It puts the officer in too much risk to get that close to someone with a knife. The tactic, which they used, would be to remove the man and order him to drop the knife. If he failed to do so then lethal force.

Within an instant of watching the clip I'd already mentally established three tactics at which they could have removed the assailant from the victim without the use of a firearm.

Which is exactly what they did. What was your issue with their tactics then? I was arguing that waiting for the second officer to be there was the most prudent course of action before attempting to remove the suspect from the victim. I would understand going one on one if youre backup is 20 minutes away but it was a matter of seconds.

The fact that the officer even had his hand on his gun is a testament to how far police training has fallen to the wayside. Too many Peace Officers are dependent on tools for solving situations, which is why unarmed people are shot, tased, and maced everyday without restraint. That cop's last thought should of been about grabbing his sidearm.

Bull. I would say that you would want a lethal force option ready just in case the guy stood up and came after the officer attempting to pull him off. Again, a good use of tactics. And the use of tasers and mace has been proven to cause less permanent injury to the suspect when compared to strikes with hands or a baton.

I wash my hands of this thread. You've trolled it long enough, and I can no longer entertain you in this matter.

So I am trolling because I disagree and am willing to provide argument to support my position? Thats not fair and I am disgusted at the fact that you would simply pass off debate as trolling. It is simple. Show me where I am wrong and allow the reader to make up their own mind. Do you think I am trying to change your mind or the minds of others who so passionately hate the police? No, I know your mind is made up. I present the other side of the argument so that those reading the thread can make their own, educated opinion instead of hearing just one side. But yea, I guess that could be considered trolling.

To me it looked like the man was done stabbing but just laying on top of him, plus the cops seemed a little rookie-ish too.. They were probably more afraid of possible repercussions. Hard to say but I will be the first to jump on the cops if they are wrong. I don't see it here atm.. One of the tougher calls I think.

This does remind of of the cop that was killed where their dept. change the policy a bit on deadly force, the cop was a little afraid to shoot, and he got killed. Seems to me like a policy/training mistake. Who knows though?

USarmyFL

I watched the video but I did not see where the victim was being stabbed. Maybe he was cut with the knife? I'm not trying to defend the cops here or anything but if they had just come up to the scene they have to assess the situation first. For all they know if could just be a fight and the guy got a bloody nose. Sure the people said he had a knife but the cops have to evaluate the situation themselves. Everyone is on this big ole cop hating trip when all they see is a short video.

Had the cops beat him with a baton or shot him I guarantee tomorrow's ATS thread would read:
COPS BEAT/KILL MAN WHO WAS DEFENDING HIMSELF! THIS HAS GOT TO STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Then we would see a 30 second clip of the attacker geting beat, lol.

this was a dead end thread....i've never heard of PEACE Officers, being unable to Disarm, armed assailants. that's a first, and i grew up with a Peace officer. maybe against protocol, but Pops, the Peace Officer, taught my siblings and I, joint locks, pressure points and a simple knife techniques, when we were growing up, should we run into any of those issues..which, a sister did, and was able to choke out her attacker after being grabbed. me myself, was able to fend off a knife attack and disarm the kid when the option to flee was taken.

i guess if the knife wielder here had turned to the officers in scene, they would've been lambs for this attacker, had they been unable to shoot...or could they NOT shoot, like they could'nt stop this attack?

i guess Chuck Norris has nothing on a crackhead with a knife....

reply to post by USarmyFL


I don't think shooting was necessary here.A swift kick to the head from one officer with the other one backing him up and they would have had it all taken care of.

To be honest it looks like they both choked.Probably rookies.Or otherwise very badly trained. They actually may have exacerbated the situation with their glaring indecision.

reply to post by AllUrChips


To those saying the cops could not do anything.......

It's called PEPPER SPAY !!!

They have it on them.

reply to post by skepticconwatcher


Saving the pepper spray for the ladies

This reminded me of The Andy Griffith show

That is revolting
I wish I could see more videos of cops doing good things

At least this proves Biden is full of it. (lol in a sad way)

more proof of new york city cops being cowards as usual. unreal, just unreal. they all must have been sick during the course on use of force, and missed it.

My uncle is a state trooper in Richmond, VA....

He HATES most other cops, he says most of the cops he works with are hypocrites and do more illegal things then most regular people do... My uncle has more downloaded movies then you could imagine lol and all of his cops friends download illegal music and movies and stuff.

He has also told me different stories about how cops driving drunk have had their cops friends drive them home rather then give them dui's and stuff...

Fixing tickets for family/friends... ect... we all know this stuff happens and it sucks...

The cops here in Miami complain about everything in the world and most of them have a base pay of $60k and overtime pay of up to $90k some of them (feel free to look at the miami/miami beach tax info on their website it gives a breakdown of how much cops and people make) and they complain about how they don't make enough for the "dangerous" job...

I have never made anywhere near $60k a year for a job much less $90k a year and allot of times cops make their job more dangerous then it needs to be by the way they act or positions they put themselves in so I do not feel much sympathy as much as they are getting paid.

I do not like cops I have never met a cop that was a good person and I have met allot of them.. I was in jail for a little while once about 60 days and I have never been treated worse in my life and I was very respectful to all guards and gave no issues before anyone goes there... on top of that when I finally got to go to court after sitting in jail for 60 days for something I did not do... I was found not guilty and released... I am not sure how innocent until proven guilty works if you have to sit in jail and have no rights until you prove you are innocent of something that someone says you did...

Originally posted by areyouserious2010
reply to post by TupacShakur

 

They have tazers, fists, batons, pepperspray, and brains. They could have taken that guy down without endangering the dude he was attacking.

Who cares if there's one or one hundred cops, they have the training and resources to handle that situation.

They couldnt shoot him because of the angle. One cop rushing in and going hands on with an individual who has a knife is insane. So the first cop waited till the second one got there.

Were talking about 15-20 SECONDS before a plan was developed and they started taking action. The most prudent course of action was to pull the suspect off of the victim which they did.

Your appraisal is simply your disposition to be against what the police are or are not doing no matter what the situation.

I am sure the police were not immediately on scene so it makes you wonder why the bystanders did not already have the guy subdued before the police got there if it was such an easy and mundane task to perform. Thats because they are bystanders. It is very easy to stand in the background and yell what the police should do.

Bull#. If those people weren't constantly having their second amendment rights eroded and demonized, then they would have done what I would have done, and pumped about 18 9mm rounds into that guys back. It's the fact that it takes cops so long to respond that we are supposed to have the right to carry weapons and defend ourselves and others. I do have to agree with you that those "bystanders" are just as guilty as the police when it comes to lack of honorable action.

reply to post by AllUrChips


That whole scene was weird. Was the Perp drinking his blood or what? He just stabbed him a couple of times with a small knife and then lay across his victim and both of em weren't moving for a bit while the cops muddled around nearby as if confused about what to do? That was weird.

Recently cops have been subject to reports of abuse. Just shooting at both of the men whilst they lay still on the ground would have sparked a bigger riot than OWS. They want to go home to their wives and kids tonight without getting stabbed or fired for use of excessive force.

So, where were the Tasers? I dunno. Everyone there had brain lock. Also where did all those police come from alla sudden? They were already nearby when this broke out?

Or was dude a vampire putting a spell on everyone to stand off while he drank his fill?