One Question

How is it possible for people who have never been involved with freemasonry to know more about the organization than it's actual members?

This always fascinates me, and any help would be greatly appreciated.

By the way, I am not a mason, so please calm yourselves before

There are many, many books you can download going back over a hundred years on free masonry that most members don't read, pick up albert pikes morals and dogma, members are no longer given this book, also there is an old encyclopedia of freemasonry one of the guys that had a large collection of rare books wrote a long long time ago that has a lot of good info in it, and plenty of more sources out there if you are really interested.

Originally posted by GringoViejo
How is it possible for people who have never been involved with freemasonry to know more about the organization than it's actual members?

The same way it is possible for someone to know more about Major League Baseball than someone who played. You can know all the trivia and minutiae but what does it really feel like to step out onto the grass at Yankee Stadium?

I mean I'll admit, we can all find info on rituals and such online, as far as i know masonic libraries are open to all, the internet has a massive amount of information on freemasons, etc.

But all we can do is speculate as to their meanings. If we on the outside can't even get the meaning of the rituals right, how can we be sure we're right when we say "Masons sacrifice babies and the mentally ill!" or something to that effect.

In my humble opinion, a "low level" mason still knows more about the the dealings of the "upper level" mason than the non-mason.

Originally posted by Autodidactic
There are many, many books you can download going back over a hundred years on free masonry that most members don't read, pick up albert pikes morals and dogma, members are no longer given this book, also there is an old encyclopedia of freemasonry one of the guys that had a large collection of rare books wrote a long long time ago that has a lot of good info in it, and plenty of more sources out there if you are really interested.

So that's all I need to know to educate myself beyond that of a member who has participated his whole life?

reply to post by GringoViejo

How is it possible for people who have never been involved with freemasonry to know more about the organization than it's actual members?

That was your question, that is what I answered, who really knows what the higher ups 30 degrees and up learn or know, but there is an abundant amount of info out there if you do want to look into it. And I think it is pretty well established that the lower rungs don't really know that much, and many who have never been a mason know a lot more then them.

reply to post by Autodidactic


Who has this been established by? Morals and Dogma is fairly well known, but thanks for the suggestion, I'll head to the library soon.

I still don't understand how these "low level" masons can go through their whole lives practicing, yet I, who has never set foot in a lodge, can read Albert Pike, look up a bunch of stuff online, and still know more than the person who has been learning about it his whole life. In context.

That's the only thing that still escapes me.

Has to do with compartmentalization of information and more importantly need-to-know.

Need-to-know means ONLY those individuals DIRECTLY involved in an operations are given information - and even then, ONLY the information needed to carry out THEIR part of the operation. Higher ups generally give direction, but rarely know the details at the individual level.

Practiced religiously (lol - bad connotation) by the military and related intelligence organizations.

Even MORE so by secret societies.

Only real way secrets get out is by insiders breaking their oath and revealing what they know - usually by word of mouth, in articles and books; sometimes documents (but REALLY secret stuff is RARELY written down).

I worked for a well known intelligence agency for over 20 years, and was never told about the real secret stuff that was going on. Found out most of my information by reading books and articles written by insiders.

atheists often know more about the bible than most Christians...not much difference

Originally posted by Autodidactic
And I think it is pretty well established that the lower rungs don't really know that much, and many who have never been a mason know a lot more then them.

Except that's just perpetuating a myth. A 3rd degree, Master Mason can join the Scottish Rite for around $100 and go all the way to 32° in a weekend. There's not the level of strata that you believe there is.

Originally posted by CaDreamer
atheists often know more about the bible than most Christians...not much difference

Let's clarify those generalizations though:

SOME atheists know more about the Bible than MOST Christians.

WHY? Because a majority of Christians aren't so dedicated to their religion that they'd take the time to thoroughly study the works from an academic perspective, while a minority of atheists, having to face Christians in debate, learn as much as they can about their opponents.

I think it's just as fair to say a majority of Masons don't REALLY know a whole lot about Masonry. But I'd wager that a majority of the Masons posting here on ATS ARE very active in their lodges, DO read the historical Masonic research and literature, and are pretty well versed with how things are done.

So perhaps a few really dedicated anti-Masons could research and publish valid works (I'd count Terry Melanson among those), but most people, Mason or anti-Mason, are too lazy to do the legwork.

One of the things I haven't done yet, is tell ya'll what part of this Rock I'm from. This should give it away:

www.arkansasties.com...

I've noticed many have referred to Albert Pike's racists views but he was from the DEEP South, and that was the way they were (not me) and our history says it all:

en.wikipedia.org...

I do not condone his views but I also didn't live during his time and he didn't live during mine, so taken into context, I respect the man nonetheless, but not his racists views and those views are cleary not the way of the Order today. The Order spans races and borders, even further, and I personally think it's Time for them to span the sexes, and for ALL Orders to accept women pledges.

Why is it a woman can only wear an apron in the kitchen? I personally would perfer to see a woman in a Masonic Apron, than a man, especially if she's totally devouted and is only wearing the apron. All pun aside, men and women are equals before the eyes of the Creator, so to not allow them to pledge in all Lodges, is to not respect the One the Order pledges allegiance to (at least, in my opinion).

As to learning about the Order, most is available online, as others have mentioned but not all is learned from a book. Some things are passed down by word-of-mouth and only the ears that hear the words, know what the words are. So the majority of Masons aren't aware of hierarchy only matters, such as the Skull & Bones Society of the Masons. They are one of the most secretive Orders within the Masons but there are others as well.

As to the comment about the CIA, whoever said that is absolutely clueless. He only thinks he knows what they are doing. They have more secrets than he has hair on his head but the Masons aren't as bad as them, but they do have secrets. We ALL have secrets.

Ribbit

Originally posted by GringoViejo
I
In my humble opinion, a "low level" mason still knows more about the the dealings of the "upper level" mason than the non-mason.

But there are no upper levels...

reply to post by GringoViejo


I once read a book I think "New World Order" and they basically lie to each other sounds pretty pathetic to me.

Originally posted by Fight4YourSoul
I once read a book I think "New World Order" and they basically lie to each other sounds pretty pathetic to me.

You 'think' you read a book?

Originally posted by CaDreamer
atheists often know more about the bible than most Christians...not much difference

Some do, but the bible is pretty straight forward, most of us don't have a choice. I can learn about the religion by reading the book, my understanding won't suffer at all if I never step inside a church.

So a few weak responses.... I figured this would have been more fruitful.

This is an urgent question, I need answers.

reply to post by GringoViejo

I find it to be the height of arrogance and completely irrational/illogical.

First off, to think one is more clever than actual members is often so arrogant that it borders a superiority complex. I mean one can sure read all he wants but books can only take you so far. Real life experience trumps books any day. To those who think that through a book they can hold a better view, I ask them to read my aircraft manual (all 2,000+ pages) and come tell me how to do my job as I am an instructor, and I do love when students think they know more than me.

Second, in one breath a non/anti-Masons will say to a Mason who disagrees with them that they are low on the totem pole except logically speaking a non-member would be privy to less than actual members, and even lower on the totem pole.

reply to post by ButtUglyToad


Women have an order all their own, called the Order of the Eastern Star.

And the Skull and Bones is in no way affiliated with Freemasonry.

It is impossible to argue with Anti Masons, because their logic is circular.

'There is a conspiracy among the higher level Masons' is very easily proven wrong, as all Masons are equal.

But upon refutation, its always the same response 'You aren't high enough in the organization to know the truth.'

Ugh.

To answer your question, anyone can become a victim to their own self aggrandizement, and ego.

You can't fill a cup that is already full...

Even if a conspiracy exists within Masonry and lets say more people (non-Masons) know about the on goings of said conspiracy then most Mason's it still dosen't mean they know more about Masonry in general then Masons in terms of what people get out of it.


Unless your a Mason and go through the rites it's impossible to know what each individual gets out of it, it's the same with the analogy that the Atheist knows more about the Bible then a Christian, sure in some cases the Atheist might know more scriptures from the book then the Christian but that dosen't mean he gets it more or can even understand the relationship a Christian has with God.