Lisa Irwin - Missing - One Year Later

reply to post by silo13


Silo, we touched on this earlier an it lead, of course, to a big yelling match. I was thinking that because of Deb's own childhood she might be very good at masking her pain. This would explain why she's not crying hysterically in interviews and even appears stoic in some. She may have learned years ago to cover it up, stifle the pain and go forward. She would almost have to losing amom at such a young age, if NOTHING else bad ever happened to her. But likely other bad things did happen.
So now you're taking this one step farther and saying her mind may have shut out the evening in question in a self preservation mode and she actually does not recall any of it. Is this correct? MIGHT, GUESS and SUPPOSE,, yes I understand you are not suggesting it as truth. You're merely offering it as an option and I think it's a good option. I've said many times how I don't get her demeanor and how I don't think she seems like a cold blooded killer. So perhaps you've hit the nail on the head. She's telling the truth when she says she doesn't know. Hmmmm

reply to post by silo13


Trauma induced amnesia is a possibility, but not really to the extent of the number of discrepancies we see now.

When you see the Police in a tense encounter, you will see them screaming very loudly in a repetitive manner. This is not done because the police are upset, its done because of the effect of an adrenaline dump / fight or flight response.

When that hits (adrenaline / fight - flight response) a person has the following reactions.

* - Auditory exclusion - A person hears the sound, but does not process that sound right away or in an efficient manner.
* - Visual exclusion - A person focuses on the threat, creating a tunnel vision like view. A person who is concentrating on say one police officer might not see / hear the second police officer who is near the person.

* - loss of fine motor control - It becomes increasingly difficult to perform complex actions / movements.
* - Time dialation - The person experiences the situation in eithrer a slow motion movie-esuq matrix style manner, or in a fast forward happened so fast manner.

We give loud clear repetitive verbal commands to account for the fact the person we are dealing with might not be comprehending what is being said to them. Usually, detailed information / memory recall of the incident becomes clearer as time goes on. Most departments have an officer do a preliminary report of the incident when it occurs, and then has them come back about 3 days later to write the report again. It allows the memory of the person to process all of the info.

There are documented cases where officers who are involved in deadly force encounters who report only firing 2 rounds from their duty weapon, when in reality they fired 8. The reverse is true as well, where they fire 8 and think they fired only 2.

Now, this is geared towards the more immediate timeframe - first few days.
What we have here now would be classified as soemthing other than stress induced trauma. If anything its going to fall under some medical / psychiatric diagnosis instead of a temporary condition.

Just as a project...does anyone know how you can go about researching a house's history online? I would love to see if I can find previous owners of the Irwin house...and if perhaps someone passed away there. I'm sure the police know and can get that information quite readily....was wondering if they haven't made a big deal about the cadaver dog because they know someone died there in the past, and if this could have sparked the positive hit from the dog.

I have heard/read so many different articles on how cadaver dogs work and the information is contradicting at best. Some say the scent is only months, others says years and years. I know the cadaver dog hit in and of itself isn't enough evidence to convict, so perhaps LE does know nobody has died there and that the hit has to be current/new. Without LE or the parents talking themselves I have complete distrust these days of every new article/lawyer/interview/post/blog/tweet/burp/fart about this case without hearing it from someone directly..themselves. Hell at this point I'll even take Jersey on camera talking in his own words, not media edited.

Michelle

reply to post by Michelle129th

Thank you for that, it makes more since now! I know our federal agencies take on different "roles", 2+ years ago we had 2 US Marshals show up at our house. They were trying to track down a violent sex offender that was "missing" (not checking in with his parole officer) & his last known address was in our neighborhood. Up until that time I had no idea the Marshals tracked sex offenders down!

OiO

Thank you Schmae and *X*
That we're talking about possibilities and ruling out possibilities - in my opinion - is all good.
There's lots to learn either way.
All the while still asking 'Where's Lisa'...
peace

reply to post by silo13


That did seem weird to me but Wildtimes explained in a post a few below yours, now it makes sense!

I can't find the video with Spellman taking about this. Apparently it was on HLN during a case update in the Prime News. No video or transcript, just internet chatter about it.

OiO

Originally posted by silo13
Thank you Schmae and *X*
That we're talking about possibilities and ruling out possibilities - in my opinion - is all good.
There's lots to learn either way.
All the while still asking 'Where's Lisa'...
peace

I don't think any of us have enough information to rule out certain possibilities..

and its pretty much a no brainer that ALL of us are asking "where is baby Lisa"..and hopefully ALL of us want the REAL truth to come out..and hope that someday it does..

and not the truth that some want us to believe....but the actual truth..

reply to post by Xcathdra


'''When that hits (adrenaline / fight - flight response) a person has the following reactions.

* - Auditory exclusion - A person hears the sound, but does not process that sound right away or in an efficient manner.
* - Visual exclusion - A person focuses on the threat, creating a tunnel vision like view. A person who is concentrating on say one police officer might not see / hear the second police officer who is near the person.

* - loss of fine motor control - It becomes increasingly difficult to perform complex actions / movements.
* - Time dialation - The person experiences the situation in eithrer a slow motion movie-esuq matrix style manner, or in a fast forward happened so fast manner. '''

AKA Panic Attack ^^^^

Originally posted by gabby2011
Is it Ok to question law enforcement? ...

Questioning law enforcement and their process is fine. Judging their actions and assuming they are ignoring evidence, especially when you arent versed in how this works and dont have all of the information they do, is without merit.

Originally posted by gabby2011
I have also said that we don't know ...

When dealing with extremely complex cases having "just enough" evidence is not enough. Using that mindset is a sure fire way of guaranteeing a possible child abductor / murderer their freedom. Once the charges are filed and a jury seated / first witness sworn in, jeopardy is attached.

That means if a piece of evidence is challeneged and ultimately excluded, and that piece of evidence was the key to the prosecution, that charges can be dismissed. If that occurs, with jeoprady attached, the person cannot be charged for the same crime again (a few exceptions exist but they are rare and are outside of my koweldge as to the specifics).

Originally posted by gabby2011
This is your explanation for the sinister events caused by people in shadow organizations??? ok...

No, that is me explaining to you that conspiracies are not new and without any information to support the conspiracy theory, its nothing but a theory.

Originally posted by gabby2011
Yes..I am suggesting that SOME police can be very ...

Wow... ok. So based on your logic here we should shut down all religious organization inside the United States because of what occred at the Jonestown massacre in South America.

Corruption does occur, however just because it does, does not mean it is occuring here. There is absolutely no evidence in this case that it is occuring, and ask you to present evidence to support your claim that it is.

Originally posted by gabby2011
I have said previously we don't have ...

You are the one who brought the illuminati up, not me.. My response to you was to point out that "conspiracies" have existed since the begining of time. You missed the point.

Originally posted by gabby2011
Excuse me.. but I think you are accusing ...

Actually I am accusing you of accusing, and no you are not speculating. Speculating is to suggest imporper activities by the police, which you have done. You continue with that argument in your reponses, while offering absolutely no evidence to support it in this case. You take examples from elsewhere and apply them to this situation.

Originally posted by gabby2011
Talk about blinders on.. you're accusing me ....

You are invoking illuminati, corruption, mishandleing of evidence, ignoring evidence, improper police activites etc - What would you call it because in my book that is an accusation and not a suggestion. Why? because again you have failed to provide any supporting information / evidence specific to this case to support your claims.

You have consistently defended the erwins, have gotten upset at people who think they are responsible while blaming / accusing / insinuating the police are acting improperly, while consistently ignoring discrepanices with the erwins and what they have stated.

So yes, you have blinders on. You are only looking at one side of this story, and your posts are evidence of that.

Originally posted by gabby2011
and yes.. if you bothered ....

You havent lynch mobbed them yet because you are to busy lynch mobbing the police and everything else non erwin.

Originally posted by gabby2011
So take off your blinders and let me have my speculations and theories.. and quit accusing me of a blame game.. because you are doing exactly what you say you don't care for..and the proof is in my posts.. if you care to search.

Learn what a speculation and theory actually is before you state you are doing it. Constantly attacking police methods while invoking the illuminait / corruption etc over and over and over again with nothing to support it does not make it a theory or speculation - it makes it an accusation.

I have read your posts, along with everyone else so I can answer questions, explain things people dont understand, and point out and educate people who just dont know what they are talking about.

I have done my best to post in a neutral manner in this thread so everyone can take from my posts what they want. However, if you are going to continue down the road you are on regarding the police, I have no problems reviewing every single post of yours and pointing out everything that is inaccurate, misleading or just plain wrong.

Respectfully I strongly urge you to take a few minutes to review your posts and ask yourself if the manner you have phrased it is appropriate as well as asking yourself how will others take / perceive what you typed out before you click post reply.

Respectfully

reply to post by gabby2011


Here's the sad truth Gab I think no matter what the 'resolution' of this case is, many of us , if not all , will never know the truth. We will be guessing some spoon fed evidence that might really support parental involvement but not enough to our satisfaction or might support an intruder we don't know yet but not enough to our satisfaction. I think the waters are so muddied at this point, we'll never know WITHOUT A DOUBT what happened. I'm thinking we start praying now for the jurors in this case because it will be a very difficult task and I for one would NEVER agree to sit on a jury like this.

ETA The family's lawyers are equally trying to muddy the waters here. So no one will know which side is east !


Here's the thing while I've been looking suspiciously at the parents all the while, that is a little person at a little desk at a computer. I have no bearing or say in t he case. I cannot affect the case either way with my guesses or opinions or accusations. NOR WOULD I WANT TO. It's a far cry to suppose someone is guilty than to be so sure they are you're willing to send them to prison for life or even to death for it. I would never ever want to be the one deciding thier actual fate....ever .

reply to post by Xcathdra

I can prevent you with a list of conspiraies and coverups that the Erwins would fit to a T.

I think maybe you meant "provide" a list that the Irwins would fit??
I agree totally. There are numerous cases (now either cold or old or solved) that are too too similar to this one to NOT look at parallels.

it seems that you are suggesting the police are untrustworthy simpy because of other scandals / coverups / conspiracies.

I agree, it does seem like that.

You will find many many times where the police have acknowledged problems during investigations. Even in those circumstances that do go unreported, the court process exposes those issues, resulting in people being held accountible.

THANK YOU!! I was hoping you would point these things out! I almost replied to that one myself, but it wasn't addressed to me, and I wanted to see what you'd say when you read it.

The responses you gave are exactly what I was thinking.

I would really like to see the list of conspiracies and coverups that are similar to the Lisa Irwin case; I've looked at the McCann case, the Shannon Matthews case after that, the Ramsey case, the Anthony case, and am learning so much about this fascinating topic.

Can you recommend any others?

reply to post by wildtimes

THANK YOU!! I was hoping you would point these things out! I almost replied to that one myself, but it wasn't addressed to me, and I wanted to see what you'd say when you read it. The responses you gave are exactly what I was thinking. I would really like to see the list of conspiracies and coverups that are similar to the Lisa Irwin case; I've looked at the McCann case, the Shannon Matthews case after that, the Ramsey case, the Anthony case, and am learning so much about this fascinating topic.

hmmm.. Like I said we just don't get to see the ones that are covered up, especially concerning matters of missing children..

really hard to get proof of cover ups from high officials..when they hold all the right cards in their hands..

If it were easy.. we'd have a lot more of these people involved with "secret societies" in jail wouldn't we?..instead of running countries and spending taxes on how they see fit.

itccs.org...

Since the spring of 1994, lawyers and journalists have named the Vancouver Club as a site where children are routinely trafficked, exploited sexually and possibly killed. These crimes were documented, including with photographic proof, by Vancouver trial lawyer Jack Cram and his assistant Renate Andres-Auger, during 1994. Both of these lawyers attempted to bring a lawsuit against two Supreme Court judges in Vancouver for their proven complicity in this alleged pedophile ring, in April of 1994. Both of them were disbarred, and Jack Cram was arrested, drugged and jailed, and the evidence he had on the Club and these judges was stolen.

reply to post by Xcathdra

I have done my best to post in a neutral manner in this thread so everyone can take from my posts what they want. However, if you are going to continue down the road you are on regarding the police, I have no problems reviewing every single post of yours and pointing out everything that is inaccurate, misleading or just plain wrong.

Only if you promise to do so with all the members who have posted innacurate, misleading, or just plain wrong information.

Originally posted by schmae
reply to post by gabby2011

 

Here's the sad truth Gab

I think no matter what the 'resolution' of this case is, many of us , if not all , will never know the truth. We will be guessing some spoon fed evidence that might really support parental involvement but not enough to our satisfaction or might support an intruder we don't know yet but not enough to our satisfaction. I think the waters are so muddied at this point, we'll never know WITHOUT A DOUBT what happened. I'm thinking we start praying now for the jurors in this case because it will be a very difficult task and I for one would NEVER agree to sit on a jury like this.

ETA The family's lawyers are equally trying to muddy the waters here. So no one will know which side is east !


Here's the thing while I've been looking suspiciously at the parents all the while, that is a little person at a little desk at a computer. I have no bearing or say in t he case. I cannot affect the case either way with my guesses or opinions or accusations. NOR WOULD I WANT TO. It's a far cry to suppose someone is guilty than to be so sure they are you're willing to send them to prison for life or even to death for it. I would never ever want to be the one deciding thier actual fate....ever .

edit on 21-11-2011 by schmae because: (no reason given)

I couldn't agree more with this. I was just thinking last night if LE aren't able to ever come up with enough evidence and can't arrest anyone....a whole lot of people will still say it was the parents and they "got lucky". If LE is able to come up with evidence, or a confession...there will still be people saying the confession was coerced or "paid for" by benefactors/defense/Obama/freemasons LOL...

There are too many emotions at risk now that it's been so long...and some people have devoted a lot of their personal time to it (reading/posting/thinking/talking)

Michelle

Meant to post this above. Jahessye Shockley's mother had been arrested. A news conference to be held at 2pm (not sure which timezone). here's a quick bit about it from GMA on youtube

GMA - Jahessye Shockley

And an article

Glendale Police to hold briefing

Michelle

Originally posted by gabby2011
reply to post by wildtimes

 

THANK YOU!! I was hoping you would point these things out! I almost replied to that one myself, but it wasn't addressed to me, and I wanted to see what you'd say when you read it. The responses you gave are exactly what I was thinking. I would really like to see the list of conspiracies and coverups that are similar to the Lisa Irwin case; I've looked at the McCann case, the Shannon Matthews case after that, the Ramsey case, the Anthony case, and am learning so much about this fascinating topic.

hmmm.. Like I said we just don't get to see the ones that are covered up, especially concerning matters of missing children..

really hard to get proof of cover ups from high officials..when they hold all the right cards in their hands..

If it were easy.. we'd have a lot more of these people involved with "secret societies" in jail wouldn't we?..instead of running countries and spending taxes on how they see fit.

itccs.org...

Since the spring of 1994, lawyers and journalists have named the Vancouver Club as a site where children are routinely trafficked, exploited sexually and possibly killed. These crimes were documented, including with photographic proof, by Vancouver trial lawyer Jack Cram and his assistant Renate Andres-Auger, during 1994. Both of these lawyers attempted to bring a lawsuit against two Supreme Court judges in Vancouver for their proven complicity in this alleged pedophile ring, in April of 1994. Both of them were disbarred, and Jack Cram was arrested, drugged and jailed, and the evidence he had on the Club and these judges was stolen.

Apparently you dont seem to understand the difference between the US Constitution and how it interacts with foreign treaties. I refer you to the Head Money Case first t get your base to build off of. Secondly, law enforcement standards enacted by the United Nations and Internatioanl Law do NOT apply to US law enforcment, nor does it trump any domestic US laws, specifically at the State level.

The US is not subject to the jurisdiction of Internatioanl Criminal Court.

Please understand this before invoking a website with statistics that are based on their views and laws instead of the US views and laws.

Respects

reply to post by gabby2011

and I have NEVER said that the possibility of illuminati , or any secret society being involved was in fact occuring.. did I?

Yep. Again and again. Ever since Dav1d started talking about cops, that's been your theory. You probably didn't read the long post I put up about the two of you exposing your agendae -- and the main points you had both made over and over and over.
So, yes, Gabby, you HAVE said the "the possibility of Illuminati or any secret society being involved" was your favored position.

So take off your blinders and let me have my speculations and theories.. and quit accusing me of a blame game.. because you are doing exactly what you say you don't care for..and the proof is in my posts.. if you care to search.

Gabby! What?!!??!! You, of all partcipants, are so quick to attack others it's just scary! Last night you nearly spontaneously combusted! "Accusing" is what YOU DO to others who don't agree with you...I won't repeat all the vile things you said to me, or the spectacularly unfair and unjustified name-calling and "blaming" people for "making you feel" and "forcing you to endure"....which is all bollocks. YOU are letting this upset you. YOU are taking people's words and fabricating insults and slights and all of it is just your perception It's NOT REAL!!

You have come partway, I'll give you that. But every time someone brings up something valid, and it discredits or makes improbable what you have presented as speculation, or touches on the family being NOT vicitms, you come unhinged!!
Why??

reply to post by Xcathdra


Can we just agree on one thing here X..and that is we BOTH want the whole truth, and nothing but the truth to eventually come out about the Irwin case.. whatever that may be..?

That is all I want.. and sometimes I think the real truth is a little harder to get at in some cases, and even harder to get into court..

whether you agree with me or not.. is really not the issue.. the issue here is finding the real truth, and having it exposed....and we both know that justice has not always been served concerning cases such as this...as well as other type cases...and that isn't always the the fault of the police...but has to do with other factors.

reply to post by silo13

Children learn very early how to ‘get away’ from pain, abuse, trauma, heartache.

This condition isn’t ‘lost’ when children who’ve been traumatized as youngsters reach adulthood.

If something traumatic happened in the ‘Brad-Win’ house - something Deborah might have fallen victim to herself - (yes I did say that) - meaning, sure, she was drunk, but, during that time when she was ‘out of her whit's’ (as they say) she (might have) found her baby deceased due to nothing more than an accident?

I can see her easily returning to the ‘fugue state’ as she quite possibly did as a child. As she possibly if not probably did when she lost her mother.

From there? Memories can be suppressed for YEARS.

YES!!! This is ABSOLUTELY TRUE AND POSSIBLE!!
Well said, Silo, and schmae, yes, we HAVE touched on this before. To me it makes the MOST sense of everything.

I think this is part of what happened to Casey Anthony, too, when Caylee went missing...she had learned to cope, to dissociate from trauma and crises.

I am glad this idea has been "rinsed and repeated", [but now I'm sure we'll get a backlash of people saying its all 'pseudo-science' and they'll quote the lawyer in the Mohler case who maintains "experts say repressed memories are fiction"...
while the DA is saying, with very good reason, that other experts say it is ALL TOO REAL.) So, I thought I'd just beat them to it, and say that attorneys will find anyone they can to refute good science. That's their scummy job.
www.kansascity.com...

Attorneys: Costs, mistrust delaying Mohler trials

In a motion filed this summer, Benjamin wrote that the state has resisted calling the case one of “repressed memories,” yet three of the witnesses said in depositions that memories claimed in the indictment were not remembered until 2008.

Campell countered that the alleged victims did block or repress many of those memories until 2008, but not all of them, and declined to concede it was a repressed memory case.

Benjamin also cited experts in the science of memory have concluded there is no such thing as recovery of repressed memories. Campell responded that other experts disagree.

These cases all wind up being just a contest between suits standing in front of a jury and trying to win the most points. It becomes a TWISTER game. Manipulation of the jury. Of the evidence. Of the "science". Of the recollections. Ick.

reply to post by wildtimes

Yep. Again and again. Ever since Dav1d started talking about cops, that's been your theory. You probably didn't read the long post I put up about the two of you exposing your agendae -- and the main points you had both made over and over and over. So, yes, Gabby, you HAVE said the "the possibility of Illuminati or any secret society being involved" was your favored position.

Thats BS... I have said that there is a possibility.. but it is not my "favored' position...

Gabby! What?!!??!! You, of all partcipants, are so quick to attack others it's just scary! Last night you nearly spontaneously combusted!

Well now here we go with the drama and exaggeration again.. I was upset at how so many twist things.. and flip flop back and forth..

Over and over again..in this thread..I have stated how I want NOTHING but the real truth to be revealed in this case..

should I go over every one of my posts stating this to show you... should we go over every one of your posts to show how you have back peddled... and switched your posts from accusations to to someone that has not made up their mind on the case till all the facts are in..

You play a crafty game wildtimes.. covering your behind..

I dare anyone to go every single one of my posts ,and show how I have consistently implicated the illuminati.. instead of putting it out there as a possibility..and speculation...while trying to show proof of what they are involved with with links..

But thank you for again showing me how clearly you and others want to put on their blinders about my posts..and insinuate garbage again.

carry on with your games wildtimes.. I will leave this thread like others have.. and hope.. and pray that the REAL truth be revealed about this case someday..

I find it amazing that a LEO (who has just recently joined the thread)..would make assumptions and accusations based on a half a dozen pages.... but hey.. I guess police aren't always so keen on seeing the whole truth at times..and jump to assumptions as well..after all they certainly aren't perfect.