How was Jesus' Crucifiction the Ultimate Sacrifice?

reply to post by soldita


the Jesus death sentence was a model for believers to follow... an example for 'your' ultimate sacrifice,

the crucifixian was not in any way an ultimate sacrifice for Jesus, because he understood he would sleep in-the-earth for 3 days, and resurrect into an 'energized' body which would later be taken to the other dimension place called Heaven.


No, the self-less martyrdom every Christian is encouraged to accept as their ultimate mission
is a mind-trap by these unseen forces & principalities...who work mysteriously as does other physical emotion & soul Vampires that feed off life energy...

such is their twisted messages... spread the Gospel...and be ready to lay down your life for the 'name' of the Lord, your creator....

I think the sacrifice has more to do with the tremendous amount of suffering that Jesus was put through for us. Not so much the death.

The sacrifice itself shows just how much God loves us. God is far greater than us, and yet he, in his infinite love allowed a part of himself (Jesus) to come to earth and dwell with, and teach his wayward and violent creation.

To me, the fact that God could humble himself enough to live among us, and ultimately be tortured and killed by such lesser beings is the ultimate show of his great love and infinite wisdom.

reply to post by soldita


The crucifixion was not the sacrifice - it was having all of God's holy wrath poured out on him.

Many "men" have suffered physically much more than Christ did on the cross - but none of us could endure the wrath of God, and none but God could endure the full measure of God's wrath.

I don't think the crucifixion was about sacrifice, but resurrection. I think people completely missed the message of 'immortality' by choosing to worship him, instead of taking responsibility for themselves. I think he was a being that didn't choose to be worshipped, but gave an important message that what he could do, we can do also.

Its not.
The story as a whole its as much as a lie as the rest of the testaments.
Godisimaginary.com

reply to post by soldita


The sins of the world were imputed upon sinless Jesus on the cross. In other words, He became your sins and took the punishment that we all deserve.

"My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

They didn't realize the truth in this when they said:

"His blood is upon us, and upon our children!"

"Now the blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you are. And when I see the blood, I will pass over you..." Exodus 12

I don't know if this has been posted but I figure if it has it bears re-posting...

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

John 15:13 (KJV)

It is as simple and as complex as that. Our ultimate currency is our flesh. But we seem to have forgotten that.

reply to post by sacgamer25

Not everything is Gods will I promise you that. You do have free will. I promise if you pray for the wrong things you may get them. If you want your life to be God's will then you have to pray for God's will. At least that is what the bible says.

I do not believe I have ever had this specific thought that not everything is God's will. For me, this is quite a distinction and so obvious I completely overlooked it. Free will guarantees we make mistakes as well.

Thanks for the comment.

I have a question to add regarding prayer, though. I have always been taught to be specific with what I pray for, kind of like if I ask for patience then He may teach me in a way I wish I never asked for the help. However, if I ask for help understanding why I don't have enough money to buy that new car, yet, I may get a more direct answer. Which leads to the concept in the prayer of Jabez. Jabez essentially asked to be the wealthiest and most powerful he could possibly be, and in return he would be sacrificial and benevolent. My question is this: even though I believe I would sincerely be as charitable as possible with any blessings God gives, how can anyone actually be presumptuous enough to ask for such things? Does that indicate selfishness? Arrogance? Some other undesirable character trait? Even just for the welfare of my family, I have difficulty asking for finances or tangible items when so much of the world is suffering unbelievably. I would really like to learn better how to appeal to the sacrifice that Jesus made in order to be a better person, not just to better my personal situation.

Thanks for any input.

Originally posted by soldita
I was raised Christian, and like so many of us as time went by lost my faith. I ask this question not to incite, but to learn. Most importantly, I hope this thread remains respectful.

Jesus is God. In essence, he is the physical version of the God of the Heavens.

God is the Creator. He created the Heavens and the Earth, and holds dominion over them. Heaven is Gods house and nobody can kick him out.

Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice. He was crucified for our sins as a means of allowing us mortals to enter into Heaven.

If Jesus is God, and God always has a place in Heaven, what was so ultimate about Jesus being crucified?

To me, this is like a magician making the ultimate sacrifice of sawing himself in half. Sure, to the crowd it might seem heroic, but at the end of the day the magician knows he will be just fine.

You can't get into heaven having sin staining your soul. This is why Jesus died on the cross, to provide the perfect sinless sacrifice, so that we who believe in him can have everlasting life. He is the Lamb of God and he is God at the same time. Yes Jesus knew he would rise from the dead, but he also knew he was going to be beaten unrecognizeable and so bad that he could barely walk while his people (the people who failed to see him for he really was) cheered and applauded shouting "kill him!". Jesus knew all this was going to happen, that he would be tortured beyond human reckoning yet he fufilled his destiny because he had to, there was no other way out for humanity unless he did this. By his stripes we are healed, and by his blood we are saved.

If you were ever a christian once you know that once you have given your soul to the Lord God Almighty, nothing can take you away from Him, not even yourself. There is nothing in the universe that has the power to take you away from him. You may not walk the Lords path now, but you still belong to Him if you have ever given yourself to Him, and you may turn your back on Him, but He will never forsake you.

Hebrews 10:31 " It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God"

Originally posted by samstone11
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

Not everything is Gods will I promise you that. You do have free will. I promise if you pray for the wrong things you may get them. If you want your life to be God's will then you have to pray for God's will. At least that is what the bible says.

I do not believe I have ever had this specific thought that not everything is God's will. For me, this is quite a distinction and so obvious I completely overlooked it. Free will guarantees we make mistakes as well.

Thanks for the comment.

I have a question to add regarding prayer, though. I have always been taught to be specific with what I pray for, kind of like if I ask for patience then He may teach me in a way I wish I never asked for the help. However, if I ask for help understanding why I don't have enough money to buy that new car, yet, I may get a more direct answer. Which leads to the concept in the prayer of Jabez. Jabez essentially asked to be the wealthiest and most powerful he could possibly be, and in return he would be sacrificial and benevolent. My question is this: even though I believe I would sincerely be as charitable as possible with any blessings God gives, how can anyone actually be presumptuous enough to ask for such things? Does that indicate selfishness? Arrogance? Some other undesirable character trait? Even just for the welfare of my family, I have difficulty asking for finances or tangible items when so much of the world is suffering unbelievably. I would really like to learn better how to appeal to the sacrifice that Jesus made in order to be a better person, not just to better my personal situation.

Thanks for any input.

The reason why it is said that everything is in God's will, is because it is in His will to allow it to happen. It is His way of teaching us because man is so hard headed that we learn by experience instead of learning when we are told.

I asked the Holy Spirit to teach me how to pray correctly, and i heard Him say "do not pray for selfish things, pray for others for it is THEY who need your prayers". The moral of the story is that by being saved, the Lord has taken care of us forever more, that we should pray for other people who need our prayers because until they are saved they are not taken care of.

The Lord is not some geenie that appears out of a lamp when you rub it to grant you 3 wishes. He does not work like that. Yes He has the power to grant you your hearts desire, but he wants you to love other people enough to ask Him to bless them because by doing this you show that you have transformed from being a selfish person to being a charitable person and He will love you all the more and you will be the richer (in spirit and in love) for it. Remember Jesus was about showing love and compassion, giving to the poor even if it meant selling your things. To be a servant of others as He was a servant to us by sacrificing Himself to serve mankind by redeeming any that would believe in Him.

reply to post by soldita

If Jesus is God, and God always has a place in Heaven, what was so ultimate about Jesus being crucified?

There would be none, if you believe this part about "Jesus is God".
The only way it makes sense is if you adjust it to: Jesus was of a nature which was not inferior to God, in at least some aspect. This person who was to become the person known as, Jesus, emptied himself of whatever that nature was, to be replaced by, human nature, so as to be able to die.
There is this thing that we as a race were under the sentence of death for, which you can think of as this combination of: a god-type person, a law, and a prophet of that law. We can visualize this by thinking of: The Angel of Sinai, the Commandments, and Moses. This angel was, practically speaking, God in his representation, and the minister of God for enforcement of death on all who oppose or not fall in compliance with this Law.
To visualize something different, you can think: Jesus as the exerciser of infinite power, John the Baptist as the prophet and law giver (He who has two coats, give one of them to another who has none) for the god-type person representing in his person, God.
In order for the one system to end, and the second system to come into affect, God, or a god of high enough rank to be a direct representation of God, has to die, since there was a blood covenant made by that god. Jesus was of such rank and was most likely of a higher status than the person at Sinai. He could step up and say, "I will be that God, as in who it was that was displayed to the world as being God, and I will suffer the penalty of breaking that blood covenant and to die forever as God."
The result is an eternal sacrifice from God, in giving up His foremost representative who was without equal, and an eternal sacrifice from Jesus himself to where forevermore he is one of us and is content to be our Lord among those he has redeemed.

Most people have a "misunderstanding" of the bible... I put misunderstanding in quotation for many reasons ranging from those adding their own thoughts and beliefs into scripture to those who are un educated in theology and cannot tell differences in scripture.

So back to the question... How is the Crucifixion of Jesus the Christ the ultimate sacrifice?

Some members have come close to the reasoning while other members show their blatant disgust for the christian faith for whatever reason. So for this little exercise lets assume the bible is an accurate historical source.

Jesus the Christ's Life was extremely special from the birth to the death. So we will start with the birth... Christ was born a Virgin birth "the immaculate conception". The concept of the virgin birth is that God the farther allowed Mary to give birth to a child without the process of the normal conception... This is unheard of in mammals and humans. Now many people cannot explain this event so they either dismiss it as never happened or start a theory and then apply the facts they can find about similar cultures to that theory to make it work. This is bad science yet is excepted by many as fact .

Many of us know the story of Christ and how he healed the sick and loved all. He lived a SINLESS life from a HOLY BIRTH...

So now we have jumped 30 years or so into the future from his birth. The Jewish "church" did not like Christ's teachings as it undermined the politics of the Jewish Church between the pharisees and sadducees. Their Plan was to arrest Jesus the Christ and Trade him for Jesus Barrabus... Jesus the Christ was sentenced to not only a crucifixion but also a scourging the two most heinous punishments left for the most sever criminals in Roman times.

Jesus gave willingly his unstained sinless life as a sacrific to God for the Sins of the jews and non jews. Sacrific in the Jewish society was a way to cleanse one's slate with God... A lamb was normally used as the sacrifice but for Man to have a clean slate it required more than just a physical Lamb...

So ask yourself what is the ultimate sacrifice you can give of yourself for your fellow man? Would you take a scourging and crucifixion for someone who killed your family? how about someone who started a war to devastate millions of lives? What about someone who stabbed you in the back? Who stole from you and disgraced your name and your family's name? Would you willingly without hesitation give your life for that person or people?

Ask yourself again what is so special about christ's death?

He gave where no one else could! He lived a SINLESS life teaching, healing and spreading love to all those he encountered! He was the Son of God through a Virgin Birth!!!

This is only a skin deep look at why it is an INCREDIBLE Sacrifice!

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There are many aspects of Christianity that MOST (i.e. 90%) of Christians dont even know! The Bible tells us to have faith like that of a child! What do children do best?.... They ask Questions and they look for answers!

I grew up in a christian home and for the most part dreaded going to church cause it was boring!!! I was and am very much an adventurous person and like to push things and myself to the edge. I didnt give myself to God until I realized just how precious life was! It wasnt until I almost drowned in a lake at a summer camp that I realized how precious my life was! For all intents and purposes I should have drowned that day! in the middle of the lake I ran out of steam swimming after goofing off all day. the water was over 30ft deep and I started going down and fast! What I do remember is something grabbing my feet and pushing me to the surface after I had given up! Miraculously I had traveled 45ft forward to the dock from an area where I was the only person in the water... I was pulled out and I grasped for air just staring into the area of the water where I almost drowned... I watched for several minutes and nothing came out of the water... I finally got up and left the lake and went to somewhere quiet by myself in nature. I thought and meditated on what happened to me just then. It clicked to me that my life was precious and that I should really cherish every moment of it. I began to think of the stories told to me growing up of Christ and how he willingly gave up his life to be sacrificed... I thought of what it felt like when I was drowning and then I thought of what it would feel like to go through what Christ had gone through. My life from that moment was forever changed!

About the Trinity...

this is a theological question. I believe that Christ/God/HolySpirit are a TRIUNITY and not a trinity... Here is my take on why.

In a Trinity there is GOD... There is Christ... There is the Holy Spirit... all seperate entities under one big guise not necessarily with equal parts... similar to our government Judicial, legislative and executive branches of government make the whole US government... I think this is a misrepresentation of what God really is.

I believe in a TriUnity...

In a Triunity there is (God/Christ/HS) They are all ONE but yet have equal part. This is hard to grasp our minds around because Christ is God and God is Christ while also Christ is the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is God... This is not a relationship that most people can wrap their minds around and doesnt fall in our built up structure of how we see power. This is a foreign concept to our way of thinking!

For Instance take Jesus the Christ as an example:

Jesus was a Man but he was also God... We are able to see this when Christ the Man pleads to God the father of another way... Knowing he faced Scourging and crucifixion. When he received his answer he knew the Lord's Will and obeyed the calling.

The Holy Spirit was not introduced to Man until after the death of Christ.

So if we look at the relationship of God and Man we can see that at first there was GOD/MAN... the fall of man... old testiment... God/Christ/Man... Death of Christ... God/Christ/HS/Man. The Holy Spirit is what I would like to "loosely" refer to as the remnant of Christ here on earth.

This subject could take on its own thread but I hope this gives some insight on the Triunity

OK im sure no one will read this and the rants will continue on, but i will give it a try. this is what i believe from various sources and books ive come into contact with over time.

Jesus had 2 purposes here while he was alive on this earth 2,000 years ago.

1. Jesus was completing the required experience in creature understanding which is demanded of all Creator Sons before they assume complete sovereignty.

2. Jesus was striving for actual experience is his creature worlds through which he gains the privilege to represent the paradise trinity.

And from what ive read he had some limatations placed on him as well.

1. technically terminating the Lucifer rebellion, and that you do all this as the Son of Man.

2. After terminating the lucifer rebellion fall into place as planetary prince.And to also atone for the sorrow and confusion brought upon Earth by the Caligastia betrayal and the subsequent Adamic default.

3.To function upon earth as a teacher,
Give attention, first, to the liberation and inspiration of man’s spiritual nature. Next, illuminate the darkened human intellect, heal the souls of men, and emancipate their minds from age-old fears. And then, in accordance with your mortal wisdom, minister to the physical well-being and material comfort of your brothers in the flesh. Live the ideal religious life for the inspiration and edification of all your universe.


Per the urantia book

4.Expand the truth of God.

5.To not only expand spirituality on earth but for the entire universe and all souls within and for all generations of souls there after.

6. Also from the urantia book
You are to go down to Urantia in the likeness of mortal flesh, and living as a man in your day and generation, you will so function as to show your entire universe the ideal of perfected technique in the supreme engagement of the affairs of your vast creation: The achievement of God seeking man and finding him and the phenomenon of man seeking God and finding him; and doing all of this to mutual satisfaction and doing it during one short lifetime in the flesh

Crucifiction pales into insignificance next to the sacrifice made by this individual. JC eat your heart out.

wesclark.com...

Originally posted by soldita
I was raised Christian, and like so many of us as time went by lost my faith. I ask this question not to incite, but to learn. Most importantly, I hope this thread remains respectful.

Jesus is God. In essence, he is the physical version of the God of the Heavens.

God is the Creator. He created the Heavens and the Earth, and holds dominion over them. Heaven is Gods house and nobody can kick him out.

Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice. He was crucified for our sins as a means of allowing us mortals to enter into Heaven.

If Jesus is God, and God always has a place in Heaven, what was so ultimate about Jesus being crucified?

To me, this is like a magician making the ultimate sacrifice of sawing himself in half. Sure, to the crowd it might seem heroic, but at the end of the day the magician knows he will be just fine.

Because he was also entirely human, yet driven by a higher will, who's will is the will, of love. He even expressed fear in the Garden of Gethsemane regarding his fate.

I am so sad for you, I hope you get your faith back, and all the treasure of Christ which goes with it.

reply to post by InshaAllah


I have one problem with the Urantia book... It comes out of nowhere! out of left field... maybe I should do some more digging but I havent found where this book originates from besides that it just does and in the 1950's people started spreading it...

I would implore people to use Exegesis when reading scripture... what this means is to pull from the book what it says in its entirety. Not to add our thoughts or beliefs to what it might say but to take it for face value... Also we must take into context the audience of that book, the timeline and culture.

Originally posted by blah yada
Crucifiction pales into insignificance next to the sacrifice made by this individual. JC eat your heart out.

wesclark.com...

that is self mutilation not sacrifice...

reply to post by blah yada


Yeah good for you, very funny..

Oh God what's with these people..?

The trinity is a hard concept for us to follow, i guess its just confusing. but im going to throw this one out there for everyone to digest.

The earliest version of trinity we have is:

Among the Hindus the trinitarian concept took root as Being, Intelligence, and Joy.

The hebrews had a early doctrine that followed a trinity concept but was lost over time.

The followers of Islam likewise failed to grasp the idea of the Trinity. It is always difficult for an emerging monotheism to tolerate trinitarianism when confronted by polytheism.

Jesus taught his apostles the truth regarding the persons of the Paradise Trinity, but they thought he spoke figuratively and symbolically. Having been nurtured in Hebraic monotheism, they found it difficult to entertain any belief that seemed to conflict with their dominating concept of Yahweh. And the early Christians inherited the Hebraic prejudice against the Trinity concept.

For Christians trinity was presented at Antioch, which where God, His word, and His wisdom.