How was Jesus' Crucifiction the Ultimate Sacrifice?

Originally posted by samstone11
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

Not everything is Gods will I promise you that. You do have free will. I promise if you pray for the wrong things you may get them. If you want your life to be God's will then you have to pray for God's will. At least that is what the bible says.

I do not believe I have ever had this specific thought that not everything is God's will. For me, this is quite a distinction and so obvious I completely overlooked it. Free will guarantees we make mistakes as well.

Thanks for the comment.

I have a question to add regarding prayer, though. I have always been taught to be specific with what I pray for, kind of like if I ask for patience then He may teach me in a way I wish I never asked for the help. However, if I ask for help understanding why I don't have enough money to buy that new car, yet, I may get a more direct answer. Which leads to the concept in the prayer of Jabez. Jabez essentially asked to be the wealthiest and most powerful he could possibly be, and in return he would be sacrificial and benevolent. My question is this: even though I believe I would sincerely be as charitable as possible with any blessings God gives, how can anyone actually be presumptuous enough to ask for such things? Does that indicate selfishness? Arrogance? Some other undesirable character trait? Even just for the welfare of my family, I have difficulty asking for finances or tangible items when so much of the world is suffering unbelievably. I would really like to learn better how to appeal to the sacrifice that Jesus made in order to be a better person, not just to better my personal situation.

Thanks for any input.

First let me say I am not a Pastor or an expert. I simply took the challenge to listen to the entire bible on CD.

I believe Jesus tells of only 2 types of prayer, one for healing the sick and the Lord’s Prayer.
Our Father in heaven, may your name be honored. May your Kingdom come soon. May your will be done here on earth, just as it is in heaven. Give us our food for today, and forgive us our sins, just as we have forgiven those who have sinned against us. And don't let us yield to temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. Mathew 6:10-13 (I believe food is the word of God not food to be eaten)

I believe this single verse to be the most missunderstood verse in the bible.
"Have faith in God," Jesus answered. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it, and it will be yours.
~ Mark 11:22, 24

This verse gives rise to prosperity churches. If an interpretation of any verse in the bible contradicts another verse in the bible that interpretation must be a lie and all lies come from the father of lies Satan. Both the Lord’s Prayer and the bible verse below contradict praying for material items. And remember Jesus says one cannot worship both God and Money (Material Possessions)

"Do not worry saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' ...Your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first His kingdom and righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well" (Matthew 6:31-33)

If you are going to make yourself more specific in prayer I would recommend asking for things such as the motivation to read the bible, a stronger spirit, better understanding of the word ext. Things that only bring glory to God and not to yourself.

Personally I believe that any prayer that becomes more specific than asking for God's will, or the healing of the sick, goes beyond what Jesus instructed. Once I stopped praying for this or that and only prayed for God's will I felt more in touch with my spirit. I am much happier now that I try and give myself solely to the Will of God without worrying about the direction. Ok I’m human so I still worry a bit but it is not the same stress that used to keep me awake at night.

This link takes you to a website containing the majority of passages from the bible on prayer.
www.christian-information-center.com...

Originally posted by soldita
I was raised Christian, and like so many of us as time went by lost my faith. I ask this question not to incite, but to learn. Most importantly, I hope this thread remains respectful.

Jesus is God. In essence, he is the physical version of the God of the Heavens.

God is the Creator. He created the Heavens and the Earth, and holds dominion over them. Heaven is Gods house and nobody can kick him out.

Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice. He was crucified for our sins as a means of allowing us mortals to enter into Heaven.

If Jesus is God, and God always has a place in Heaven, what was so ultimate about Jesus being crucified?

To me, this is like a magician making the ultimate sacrifice of sawing himself in half. Sure, to the crowd it might seem heroic, but at the end of the day the magician knows he will be just fine.

I think the key to understanding why it could be considered the ultimate sacrifice is to remember that Jesus was fully God and fully man. He wasn't half God and half man, or some combination of physical and spiritual traits. Rather, he was fully God, yet at the same time also existed as fully man. From our human perspective this is a bit of a dichotomy, and isn't possible in our physical world. But many of the spiritual concepts communicated in the Bible are dichotomies from our human perspective.

This shouldn't surprise us since the spiritual realm exists outside of our physical realm. If every spiritual concept fit neatly within the possibilities of our physical world, it would cause us to question whether God really deserves our awe and respect, whether He is really capable of creating our world, etc.

So to your question, for Jesus as he existed as fully man, he performed an act similar to soldiers who die in defense of their country, or parents who heroically give their lives to save a child. We generally accept that these acts are the ultimate sacrifice. And this is what Jesus as fully man did.

But for Jesus as fully God, it is unlikely that this was the ultimate sacrifice. I don't think that as humans we could fathom what would be the ultimate sacrifice for God.

So again, I think the critical word is "fully" - he was simultaneously fully God and fully man. So he felt and experienced everything we do as humans - pain, suffering, and fear of death.

reply to post by clearstream

I don't think that as humans we could fathom what would be the ultimate sacrifice for God.

How about to cease to be God? A god dying would be one less god in existence. God would have to make a transition, through becoming a mortal, first, then die, never to return to being a god as he/she was previously.

Originally posted by Q:1984A:1776
reply to post by soldita

 

Perhaps he really did make the ultimate sacrifice, and is truly dead. We certainly don't see San Francisco being smitten with holy, heavenly fire for all of the homosexuals there. Nor do we see the followers of Christ performing greater miracles than he, as he prophesied they would. Perhaps the story was real, but only to the point of the crucifixion. Perhaps God decided that this universe was a horrible, evil idea where to live, you have to kill, and perpetuate an endless cycle of suffering. I know that if I pulled off something so cosmically evil, I'd have to kill myself to get over the guilt.

I would like to reply to your post if I may. My answer will address some of your statements and extend my answer to the OP, so I think I shall be ok.

1st. I notice that you use the word ' perhaps ' a few times. Please understand that the ' story ' as you refer to it - that being the crucifixion - is 100% proven fact. Check the history books for yourself if you wish. It is ALL verified, by Christian and NON CHRISTIAN sources.

2nd. The resurrection is also 100% proven fact. There were hundreds and hundreds of EYE WITNESSES to the resurrected CHRIST. People WATCHED HIM ascend to Heaven. JESUS even ate and drank with some, cooked breakfast for others, allowed people to physically put their fingers into his wounds to prove that HE was alive and well. People who HATED JESUS and everything that HE said and did completely and unequivically changed their lives on account of the resurrected CHRIST - even to the point of martyrdom.

3rd. The Holy Bible is ALL about JESUS CHRIST - from cover to cover. The scriptures are full of prophecy about JESUS. Prophecy is the announcement of the future BY GOD through his servants. ALL prophecy, from Adam to the crucifixion HAS BEEN FULFILLED ! That is also verified by Christian and NON CHRISTIAN sources. The Holy Bible states CLEARLY AND FACTUALLY that prophecy is MORE SURE THAN EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS !!!!!!

4th. Jesus' disciples DID do miracles after CHRIST returned to Heaven. They healed the crippled, the blind, raised the dead, changed lives and CHANGED ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY FROM THAT POINT TO TODAY. Miracles still happen today. They are not common - hence the definition of the word miracle, but they DO occur. I am sure that a quick flick through youtube and you will find something about the topic. If you are willing to dig a bit deeper then I am sure that you will find so much literature on modern day miracles that it will be conclusive to you.

5th. MOST IMPORTANTLY - GOD did not ' perpetuate an endless cycle of suffering '. GOD created everything ' GOOD '. The Bible - which is the inspired Word of GOD - states that when GOD created the universe and EVERYTHING in it HE Himself declared it GOOD. When HE created man, GOD declared man VERY good.
It was mans choice to disobey GOD and to rebel against GOD and disown GOD and to deny GOD as creator that has ' perpetuated and endless cycle of suffering '. WE ( you AND ME ) are the cause of death, hurt, pain, suffering, disease, destruction, envy, ambition, greed etc. etc.
GOD chose out of HIS infinite LOVE, MERCY and GRACE to look beyond what we have done, and offer HIMSELF as the remedy to repair what WE have done. That is why the birth, death AND RESURRECTION of JESUS CHRIST IS the ULTIMATE SACRIFICE !!!

If JESUS was not raised from the dead then it was NOT the ultimate sacrifice - it was shear stupid insanity ! The point is that HE did rise and is in Heaven, and that through HIM we can CHOOSE to be in Heaven with HIM.

PLEASE understand that I am NOT posting this to be argumentative or inflammatory. I am not even trying to make you change your mind - you are obviously very passionate with your beliefs and I respect that. I am just supplying some facts for you to consider if you want to.

REMEMBER THAT WHEN OPINIONS ARE SUPPORTED WITH FACTS THEY BECOME TRUTH NOT JUST OPINIONS.

Peace be with you friend.

I think God and Satan have a strange deal going. Both required sacrifice from their followers that would truly test the dedication of each respective group towards evil or good. Satan would require human sacrifice and such. So most people who would want Satan's powers would not be able to kill another human which would limit the followers of Satan to those who truly were evil. God would have people in the old testament times sacrifice things that were important to them as a sign that they were truly sorry for there sins. So to show that they were sorry for stealing them would sacrifice their tastey juicy sheep that they were going to eat or something. So someone who sinned would have to go without for a short time. If the person didn't care enough about God to do it then they obviously were not loyal. But those who did make the sacrifice proved their dedication and loyalty to God. God tricked Satan with the Jesus sacrifice which shows just how much God actually loves us and wants us to spend eternity with him. Now you didn't even need to sacrifice tomorrows dinner. Now all you had to do was repent. Jesus was perfect and god manifest in the flesh. Being infinite he could forgive an infinite amount of sins.