The real reason why the truth movement clings to their theories

reply to post by seachange


You mean the college educated cave men? Or did you not realize that most of the hijackers were educated?

reply to post by psikeyhackr

Economists can't talk about the planned obsolescence of automobiles.....

Sure they can - but thats more a marketing thing anyway. But thats pretty complicated, I don't think you would understand.

and report the total depreciation of all of the cars in any country.

Well, they could guess, nobody has sufficient data to accurately report the total.

Consistent global stupidity. Ignoring physics again.

Ignoring physics? Do you really believe that you are the only person on earth who knows anything about physics? You may be the only person on earth that understands the connection between physics and accounting depreciation.

reply to post by GoodOlDave


I was not going to post anything but my "geekdom" would not stop bothering me.

Oh yeah, then there was the movie "The Mist" wher the US military was opening dementional doors and allowng alien monsters into the world to run amok for no reason.

In "The Mist" the government was working on a type of gateway that was somehow trans-dimensional, it is not necessarily true that the government did anything to set the monsters loose. Private Jessup in the movie said he heard rumors of something going on on the base, and that they may have been the cause of it.

The following is relevant to you your post IMO.

After he mentions this, people around him start blaming the government/society for the disaster, a product of their own "fear". And due to their "fear" of god instilled in them by the religious fanatic Mrs.Carmody who claimed that it was the end times and blood sacrifice was necessary drove them to irrational decisions.

My point is that the story did not blame the government, but used it as an ambiguous symbol of "fear". By not truly knowing what happen the people in the grocery store were very quick to blame and carry out judgment on those they thought responsible despite the lack of evidence and logic. "Fear" was the point of the story more specifically like many other Lovecraftian stories the "Fear of the Unknown". People fear what they cannot explain, what they cannot touch, what they cannot see. The Government is an entity which has a lot of those qualities thus creating a atmosphere of the unknown.

I tend to stay out of the 9/11 debate as much as possible, I find it frustrating. But I can understand why so many people believe in these theories. Its like Ron Paul has said the Government is so irresponsible, that it basically invites conspiracy theory due to the lack of intelligent investigation, and a lack of transparency. IMHO the OS's and the Truthers both have it wrong.

Oh and by the way The actual cause of the disaster in "The Mist" is actually explained (albeit I do not know if it confirmed canon) in a graphic novel version of the Dark Tower, where a weapon that was used to destroy the Dark Tower failed and somehow ripped a hole in space time allowing the Mist to flood towards the experimental doorway created by the government. So blame fictitious science!!

Unanswered questions...

Does anyone know or have an opinion if the World Trade Center bombing on February 26, 1993 was part of the 9-11 conspiracy?
If it was, was it supposed to bring down the tower then but failed and how was George Bush related to it?
What did the first bombing in '93 accomplish?
If it was part of the conspiracy was the jury who convicted the four Islamic terrorist defendants in on it too, how about the then Pakistani government who extradicted one of the "terrorist"?

Was the, Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan and 1979 hostages involved in with the 9-11 conspiracy?
Was the group, Islamic Jihad, who claimed responsibility for more than 5 bombings part of the 9-11 conspiracy? Was Hezbolah or the PLO involved? The Abu Nidal Organization? Ezzedine Kassam of the Arab Revolutionary? How about Islamic Movement for Change, the Tigers of the Gulf, and the Combatant Partisans of God? (who all claimed bombings of US interests).

Are all of the very different Islamic Fascist/Fundies from different countries and cultures throughout the last 40 to 50 years all part a CIA or US government coverup?

Are the movements and bombings that are not associated with Islamic fundamentalism part of a giant scheme by the US government? Does Panama, Grenada, Somalia, the Fauklands and Haiti somehow fit into it?

In the cases where the ethnic cleansing campaigns against Muslims took place throughout areas controlled by the Bosnian Serb Army during 1992–1995 included the killing of more than 8,000 Bosnian Muslims as well as the mass expulsion of another 30,000 Bosnian Muslims in '95 US government related? If so why did the UN and US condemn the actions of the Serbs?

Are the bombings and murders done to other countries or people not related to the USA but still attacked by Islamic Fundies (including Arab against Arab) part of the US conspiracy?

How about terrorism that is not associated with the Islamic fundies or the US, does it somehow fit in with an agenda that leads to 9-11?
How does the dozen or so Muslim terrorist attacks in Russia fit in? or the Muslim terror attacks in the Phillippines?

These are things i can not figure out.

Are there real Islamic terrorists or is it all part of some anti-Arab (or anti-Islamic) plot by America's covert government?

If it is America why don't the governements of these other countries like India, Russia, the Phillpines etc. make it public? Why does it seem only countries like Iran and a few other Theocratic regimes say it's Americas fault?
Why would someone believe their lies over our lies?

Where does or doesn't the American (homegrown) terrorists fit in with the covert plot like, Kaczynsky? McVeigh?.

How do the stopped or averted terrorist plots fit in to all of it, if it's a "covert op" why stop it?

How is something this all encompassing and international contained? Brainwashing? Buying people off or coercion? How come most people get brainwashed while other "awaken"?

Is there more evil people in the world than good? Or are the good people brainwashed, apathetic, lazy or whatever?

Well, i could think of a hundred more unanswered question... but i'll stop.

The real world is a very scary and crazy dangerous place

reply to post by network dude


There is a world away from my keyboard? You mean that Neo guy was RIGHT?

No kidding there is a real world. And its full of people who don't like the United States for many reasons, some justified, some not so much. People like Abbu Abbas, Abu Nidal, Osama Bin Laden (yes, I know all three of them are dead now) and a bunch of others. I've been dealing with Islamic nuts since the mid 80s. And no, not all Muslims are terrorists...but there are a bunch that are.

The sad part are those truthers who seem to think that terrorism (or the idea of it) did not exist prior to 9/11.

reply to post by AgentC


I was disappointed that you didn't mention John Farmer by name.....

Or maybe you don't realize that the sham/cover up that they are referring to, was the story of the "well oiled" response that day that we were told about for months till the Commission started its work and discovered the testimony/documents they were seeing did not match the story we had been told. And that Mr Farmer feels the Commission Report.is accurate.

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by psikeyhackr

 

Ignoring physics? Do you really believe that you are the only person on earth who knows anything about physics? You may be the only person on earth that understands the connection between physics and accounting depreciation.

Well I haven't notice anyone else point out that the Purdue simulation doesn't have the core column moving in the north tower impact simulation. I found that pretty strange.

Does physics cause cars to wear out or not? I think it is called FRICTION.

But the depreciation can be tracked or not. The physics is incapable of knowing or caring.

But then economists don't mention NET DOMESTIC PRODUCT very much anyway. They just make a big deal about the GROSS. But their equation for NET only includes Capital Goods. So the depreciation of durable consumer goods gets disappeared.

Can physics tell the difference between capital goods and consumer goods?

Rather more important than 9/11 since it has been going on since World War II.

psik

Originally posted by trika3000
Unanswered questions...

Does anyone know or have an opinion if the World Trade Center bombing on February 26, 1993 was part of the 9-11 conspiracy?

Why care?

Originally posted by psikeyhackr

Originally posted by trika3000
Unanswered questions...

Does anyone know or have an opinion if the World Trade Center bombing on February 26, 1993 was part of the 9-11 conspiracy?

Why care?

It's the internet

Originally posted by ATH911

Originally posted by vipertech0596
Fear.

Funny, that's the same reason I think you skeptics cling to the OS! At least for the skeptics who aren't paid to defend the OS.

edit on 26-9-2011 by ATH911 because: (no reason given)

But the difference is that the OS is homogenous-- all the pieces fit, and so is workable.

The CT's all have differing pieces-- no interconnection between one theory and the next. There is nothing you can do with dozens of variations that do not agree.

It seems as if the CTs begin with a concept of not being able to do anything about it and then choose theories to fulfill their own prophecies. If one theory gets debunked, then they are off to the next, and the next, and the one after that.

Originally posted by Openeye
reply to post by GoodOlDave

 

My point is that the story did not blame the government, but used it as an ambiguous symbol of "fear". By not truly knowing what happen the people in the grocery store were very quick to blame and carry out judgment on those they thought responsible despite the lack of evidence and logic. "Fear" was the point of the story more specifically like many other Lovecraftian stories the "Fear of the Unknown". People fear what they cannot explain, what they cannot touch, what they cannot see. The Government is an entity which has a lot of those qualities thus creating a atmosphere of the unknown.

A splendid post, Openeye, although I admit my human failings and had to read it several times to fully understand your point. I'm giving you a star for your troubles.

So are you saying that because there is a vaccuum of information concerning many areas of the 9/11 attack, that the conspiracy people are trying to fill the vaccuum by instinctively blaming the gov't because they associate the unknown with all the clandestine projects the gov't is playing with? I suppose that would explain the "the gov't staged 9/11" people, but how would this apply to the "the Jews staged 9/11" people or the "the Illuminati staged 9/11" people? Or is this simply the same fear of the unknown but with different outlets?

This is a curious thread. Some great points on both sides. PLB said it near perfect a few pages back. Trika3000 elaborated nicely.

When I watched the towers fall live (on television) I immediately thought it looked like a demolition. I thought the towers should have fallen sideways, toppled over, leaned... something! I said to my friends on the spot, "That looked like a demolition." They all agreed. I would guess most people who've seen the collapses think it looks much more like a demolition than a structure toppling due to a puncture and some fire.

Many have proposed theories about fire seeping into elevator shafts and stuff. I still can't get over what I saw with my eyes. The towers should have leaned one way or another. The fact that none of the three towers leaned at all, the fact that the official story of 911 doesn't really talk about building 7, political motives (stirring a populace to war, winning another election, defense contracts, populace mental conditioning, the Patriot Act, etc...), and the slew of other strange things like BBC reporting the collapse of building 7 before it happened and the still unreleased videos of the Pentagon impact (I'm sorry. They have cameras on that building. A lot of them, I'd guess. LET US SEE THEM!) only leads to more doubt.

So, do we have really have people feeding an addictive need for "top secret" knowledge so they can sit at the cool kids table? The allure of being rare? Yeah, I think we do. Probably a lot of them.

Jhonen Vasquez, author of "Johnny the Homicidal Maniac", had a great quote: "It's not about being an outcast. It's about blending in with the outcasts."

But, all that said, I have too many doubts about 911. I researched it, more doubts came.

So we come down to the original poster's main point. Why do I believe we're being lied to?

Answer: My own vantage point. Not fear.

Simply put, I pray I'm wrong.

Why would "the gubberment" "do" "something like this"?

I don't think they did. I think our government is inept. I think our government places people in positions of power who are very similar to the manager at the McDonald's down my block. These are humans, with human emotions, human whims, and human vices.

Now, if someone came to you, a normal human of average intelligence, and said they would give you more money, more power, and more creature comforts without repercussion if you allow some "security" team to "check" your neighbor's house, would you do it?

Trika3000, you talked about what happens when you ask Truthers for a motive. I purpose there was no "government" conspiracy. I think there are people who want to make more money and take over the world. Do you believe empire building stopped with Hitler? No one is left alive who would kill a few people so they could get what they want? No one in a position of power and influence with resources, networks, and a cracked mind?

The government is made of people. People do really strange things. Why is it hard to think there are people who would kill their fellow Americans just so they can get some money or power?

We see it almost every day with suicide bombers, Von Maur shooters, school shooters, bomb threats... and these are the small fries. What would happen, let's pretend, if a smart psychopath planned, plotted, played the right cards, and got into, oh, let's say... the Presidential Cabinet? Would that psycho just stop planning to kill everyone? Probably not.

People in our government could be evil. Does that make the whole of the "infiltrated" government evil?

Not at all.

And I don't think it would be hard to keep a conspiracy a secret at all. What if only four people in our government rigged 911 and just told everyone else who helped them lies? Maybe some blackmail? It doesn't seem that far fetched.

Did you see those towers fall?

I've done quite a bit of research. I call a spade a spade until someone shows me otherwise.

The Twin Towers were brought down by a controlled demolition.

Originally posted by trika3000
Unanswered questions...

...

Is there more evil people in the world than good? Or are the good people brainwashed, apathetic, lazy or whatever?

...

The real world is a very scary and crazy dangerous place

There are more good people than evil by far.

If you can't see that, you may be one of the evil people.

reply to post by psikeyhackr

Well I haven't notice anyone else point out that the Purdue simulation doesn't have the core column moving in the north tower impact simulation. I found that pretty strange.

Prove they moved within the timeframe and respective of the simulation.

Does physics cause cars to wear out or not? I think it is called FRICTION.

You really have no clue what depreciation is, do you?

But the depreciation can be tracked or not. The physics is incapable of knowing or caring.

You know how you're so fond of telling everyone that physics doesn't care about blah, blah, blah? Well guess what, accounting doesn't care about physics. You can buy a brand new computer, never even take it out of the box and by accounting rules it still depreciates. Magic, huh?

But then economists don't mention NET DOMESTIC PRODUCT very much anyway. They just make a big deal about the GROSS. But their equation for NET only includes Capital Goods. So the depreciation of durable consumer goods gets disappeared.

It doesn't get disappeared - it just doesn't matter to economist. If you are not producing anything with your "goods" then it doesn't matter.

Can physics tell the difference between capital goods and consumer goods?

Can you? I know I schooled you in this matter once before. I hope you learned a little.

Rather more important than 9/11 since it has been going on since World War II

Uh, what's been going on? This isn't that nonsense about planned obsolescence, is it? Really, thats just an old wives tale that people who don't understand marketing and economics get sucked into because it reinforces the notion that someone is out "to get them" which in turn relinqueshes them from responsibility for their situation in life. Not much unlike 9/11 conspiracies.

reply to post by GoodOlDave

So are you saying that because there is a vaccuum of information concerning many areas of the 9/11 attack, that the conspiracy people are trying to fill the vaccuum by instinctively blaming the gov't because they associate the unknown with all the clandestine projects the gov't is playing with?

Yes that is pretty much what I'm saying. So much information leads to many different conclusions, and what is not said is up to speculation. Now what is true and what is not? I have no idea...no one knows it all, and I think thats what makes the situation bad. When people see a large organization they are supposed to have faith in (i.e government, or any group of authority ) fail at a task, there is a sense of betrayal and melancholy amongst the masses. This is the fault of Government and the people.

I suppose that would explain the "the gov't staged 9/11" people, but how would this apply to the "the Jews staged 9/11" people or the "the Illuminati staged 9/11" people? Or is this simply the same fear of the unknown but with different outlets?

I think these other theories stem from older conspiracy theories which are just evolving to match the age. Government is always associated with conspiracies due to the fact that if such a "shadow behind the thrown" exists they would have some form of control over government.

I do believe government is corrupt now more than any other time in American history. I also believe that there are a few people with power in this world, who are following a "path" revealed through ancient but common knowledge. And they will do anything to have their "WILL" be "LAW". But what I believe and what is true are completely different, and I have the chance of being absolutely wrong. We have to deny ignorance and look for our own truths based upon facts, and by using the mind God has given us. With it we can see the true conspiracies circulating around us. Logic and Knowledge are double edged swords, wield them wisely.

Originally posted by vipertech0596
reply to post by seachange

 

You mean the college educated cave men? Or did you not realize that most of the hijackers were educated?

I think you missed out on the important point. Your conspiracy theory is just that, a theory with little evidence. But Bush stated his involvement in the conspiracy as a fact, so that is a public record. In specific, he stated he watched on his limo TV the first plane hitting the first tower and then was thinking about how terrible the pilot was to do that. Checkmate, with one piece of evidence. But there are actually something like five or six checkmates, so its unfair to refer to the 9/11 conspiracy as a theory when its been factually proven at least five times over. So, why refer to fact as theory?

Bush Admission = Checkmate.
Building 7 Implosion = Checkmate.
Swiss cheese metal beams = Checkmate.
Explosive residues throughout rubble = Checkmate.
Option trading on the three days before 9/11 = Checkmate

Any of those facts all alone prove a conspiracy of more than the 19 hijackers. And those are just the checkmate evidences. There are what, five times that many strong suggestions of a conspiracy?

Silverstein said "pull it" regarding building 7 = Strong suggestion.
NORAD's operational test of a suicide plane attack on 9/11 = Strong suggestion.
Investigations treated as a bad joke = Strong suggestion.
Squibs seen during WTC building collapses = Strong suggestion.
Destruction of Pentagon videotapes = Strong suggestion.

And I'll just stop there as I'm sure that gets the point across.

Originally posted by hooperThis isn't that nonsense about planned obsolescence, is it? Really, thats just an old wives tale that people who don't understand marketing and economics get sucked into because it reinforces the notion that someone is out "to get them" which in turn relinqueshes them from responsibility for their situation in life. Not much unlike 9/11 conspiracies.

Sorry for off topic, but this is BS. Goods are made to break now days. They really don't make them like they used to. They are made with cheaper materials that break easier so that people have to replace them within a few years. Would really like to hear how you justify that if not Planned Obsolescence.

reply to post by Cecilofs


This is only partly true, and you are ignoring two things. Firstly, durable products are more expensive to produce. Consumers tent to find price more important than durability. Secondly, often consumers want to buy replacements on a regular basis. Take for example mobile phones. I think almost everyone has at least once replaced his mobile phone while the old one was still perfectly fine. Same goes of course for cars, clothes, or any other status/fashion product.

Originally posted by -PLB-
reply to post by Cecilofs

 

This is only partly true, and you are ignoring two things. Firstly, durable products are more expensive to produce. Consumers tent to find price more important than durability. Secondly, often consumers want to buy replacements on a regular basis. Take for example mobile phones. I think almost everyone has at least once replaced his mobile phone while the old one was still perfectly fine. Same goes of course for cars, clothes, or any other status/fashion product.

Its a sound point, but I would argue we've been conditioned to want the latest and greatest. Especially with things like fashion. We are conditioned to buy cheap goods because its a quick fix solution and we are trained not to look at the longer term financial burden that puts on us. We are also trained to just accept this situation as it is.

If consumers were conditioned to buy goods that last and are made from quality materials, then they wouldn't be consuming any more and the whole big farce would end. That's why I believe in Planned Obsolescence.

Things like phones and computers could be made to be upgradable, so you could go to a store and get a new microchip instead of throwing the whole thing out. But where's the profit in that?!

reply to post by Cecilofs


I don't think that short term planning is the result of conditioning, its just our human nature. On the contrary, I think planning ahead is something that needs to be learned or conditioned. From an evolutionary point of view humans never had to plan further ahead than about half a year.

The reason why humans want the latest and greatest is also pretty much our nature. We want to show that we are better than others. You see this happening all over the world, including or maybe especially in 3rd world countries, where mainstream media plays only a small role, as many people don't even have good access to it. And as with short term planning, I think it is possible to find evolutionary benefits/reasons for this kind of behavior. You also see this kind of behavior among animals. So to get rid of this behavior, it needs to be learned/conditioned.